New Bike - Carbon or Alu

maxamillius

Just looking for some thoughts on the Carbon vs Alu debate

looking at bikes between 2k - 2.5k

presumably that's the entry level for carbon frames, and maybe the top end for Alu?

have done enough research on Groupsets and i'm happy enough to stick with 105 for what i need.

would be good to here some opinions on the frame material?

cheers

Cee-Jay-Cee

At that price definitely get carbon, you’ll get a very good bike with 105 and possibly Ultegra for €2500

Tony04

If you looking for a better performance go carbon. Maybe aluminum might be better for something like a gravel bike, aluminum bikes might be nicer for maintenance also as they more likely to have threaded bbs if your maintaining your own bikes.

You can get 105 disc bikes for a little over 2000 ultegra disc for 2500. You can get 105 rim for even cheaper than 2000.

MojoMaker

Carbon isn't the be all and end all don't forget. A good high-end Alu bike probably a better investment than low-grade carbon, which is all you get in the sub-4k territory. I don't buy the performance angle necessarily, of course generally it's lighter but it comes with its own problems, it's more susceptible to scratches (particularly matt finishes), it doesn't take impacts too well, there are bottom bracket issues on many cheap carbon frames, and overall the material is less durable.

Of course, down the pub everyone wants carbon, but a well-specced Bowman, Ridley, or CAAD frame would be a fine bike to own.

Sad in a way that Canyon dropped their superlight AL frames but I guess the new cyclist only sees/hears carbon. I reckon after a few years in the sport/hobby you see folks coming back around to high-quality Alu, steel, and titanium eventually (when the pockets stretch a bit).

maxamillius

MojoMaker wrote: »

Carbon isn't the be all and end all don't forget. A good high-end Alu bike probably a better investment than low-grade carbon, which is all you get in the sub-4k territory. I don't buy the performance angle necessarily, of course generally it's lighter but it comes with its own problems, it's more susceptible to scratches (particularly matt finishes), it doesn't take impacts too well, there are bottom bracket issues on many cheap carbon frames, and overall the material is less durable.

Of course, down the pub everyone wants carbon, but a well-specced Bowman, Ridley, or CAAD frame would be a fine bike to own.

Sad in a way that Canyon dropped their superlight AL frames but I guess the new cyclist only sees/hears carbon. I reckon after a few years in the sport/hobby you see folks coming back around to high-quality Alu, steel, and titanium eventually (when the pockets stretch a bit).

Yep thats along the lines of how I was thinking, I think they are fair points re scratches and also maintenance etc

I’m not a professional, just get involved in sportives and long weekend spins etc,

It’s probably as you say, more of a talking point at my level, carbon fibre sounds better than alu.

maxamillius

MojoMaker wrote: »

Carbon isn't the be all and end all don't forget. A good high-end Alu bike probably a better investment than low-grade carbon, which is all you get in the sub-4k territory. I don't buy the performance angle necessarily, of course generally it's lighter but it comes with its own problems, it's more susceptible to scratches (particularly matt finishes), it doesn't take impacts too well, there are bottom bracket issues on many cheap carbon frames, and overall the material is less durable.

Of course, down the pub everyone wants carbon, but a well-specced Bowman, Ridley, or CAAD frame would be a fine bike to own.

Sad in a way that Canyon dropped their superlight AL frames but I guess the new cyclist only sees/hears carbon. I reckon after a few years in the sport/hobby you see folks coming back around to high-quality Alu, steel, and titanium eventually (when the pockets stretch a bit).

Yep thats along the lines of how I was thinking, I think they are fair points re scratches and also maintenance etc

I’m not a professional, just get involved in sportives and long weekend spins etc,

It’s probably as you say, more of a talking point at my level, carbon fibre sounds better than alu.

Tony04

To be honest if cheaper carbon fibre was really bad there would be more horror stories out there. And at the 2000€ price point the stuff isnt the awful stuff out of chinese factories but is probably the well built stuff from taiwan.

Bike brands use carbon firstly because obviously is 'its what the pros use'. Secondly it is lighter and easier to construct for aerodynamics. Its difficult to construct aero aluminium bikes, then again aero is another marketing ploy. But to construct lightweight alloy bikes you do have to use thin tubes which are not as strong as carbon frames of the same weight. At the same time on a mtb alloy is better because if you throw a rock at it, it is less likely to brake than carbon, but then alloy does fatigue and after 10-20 years it's not uncommon to see breakages at the welds.

Titanium is probably the best material to invest in imo but that sets you back an arm and leg.

So at your budget if you want something more value/performance giant tcr canyon ultimate is where to look.

Where as if you want something a bit fancier cannondale caad would be nice or even specalized tarmac(carbon).

magicbastarder

MojoMaker wrote: »

low-grade carbon, which is all you get in the sub-4k territory

that's quite a claim!

byrnem31

I just changed from a 2018 alu cube nuroad to a giant defy advanced 2 2020 carbon bike, €2250.
I had big thick anti puncture tyres on the nuroad and thought no way in hell will the new bike be as comfortable. The difference is night and day with the defy being way more comfortable. Its light years ahead of the cube though in fairness its twice the price. The comfort is through the frame.

A lifetime warranty on the frame for the original owner too. You cant make a guarantee like that unless they are well made. Also 2 year warranty if you crash and break the frame in the first 2 years. Shimano 105 with 11 gears. It's perfect and great on gravel. I'll never go back to aluminium. No road buzz, vibration, etc. coming through the bike.

Cee-Jay-Cee

MojoMaker wrote: »

Carbon isn't the be all and end all don't forget. A good high-end Alu bike probably a better investment than low-grade carbon, which is all you get in the sub-4k territory. I don't buy the performance angle necessarily, of course generally it's lighter but it comes with its own problems, it's more susceptible to scratches (particularly matt finishes), it doesn't take impacts too well, there are bottom bracket issues on many cheap carbon frames, and overall the material is less durable.

Sorry but no one needs to spend over €4K to get a good carbon bike. There are plenty of quality carbon bikes in the €2-2500 price range and for the average cyclist who cycles for leisure/fitness they’re more than enough.

ckeego

I think you will get a fine bike with that budget.

Certainly around the 2.5k mark I’d be looking at titanium (Lynskey have some great clearance bikes on their site) and unless you are racing/doing a lot of hills, you need to ask is carbon the way to go.

Dolan’s ADX comes in around 2300 euro..

The Cannondale CAAD 13 comes in at that price point depending on the build.

If you’re mind is set on carbon, certain set ups (race v. endurance) may not be the most comfortable. There is no point in having a race aero set up if it’s going to kill your body on a sportive ride.. it might look amazing and be well under 7kilos but if you need to be carried off it after 90minutes riding, it might not be the choice for you.

The suggestion above that it’s only cheap stuff sub 4K is pure pants...

Bang for buck, it’s hard to look past the Canyon Ultimate CF SL Disc 8.0 but there are many many other good carbon bikes in that bracket-have a look at the Giant Defy Advanced 1, Cannondale’s SuperSix Evo 105 and the Orro Gold STC Ultegra is simply a cracker.

I’d always look towards previous years models too, particularly if buying online. Look at sites like Hargreaves if you go down that line. There can be excellent bargains to be had, but it can come at the risk of fit and after sales service.

Either way, the best money you will spend will be on a proper bike fit-personally Aidan at bikefit.ie in Kilmacanogue Wicklow is excellent, and may be a very good starting point to discuss what type of riding you will settle into. This will dictate what this particular bike purchase will be!!!

The very best of luck with your purchase.. very exciting!

ckeego

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

Sorry but no one needs to spend over €4K to get a good carbon bike. There are plenty of quality carbon bikes in the €2-2500 price range and for the average cyclist who cycles for leisure/fitness they’re more than enough.

Well said!

maxamillius

ckeego wrote: »

I think you will get a fine bike with that budget.

Certainly around the 2.5k mark I’d be looking at titanium (Lynskey have some great clearance bikes on their site) and unless you are racing/doing a lot of hills, you need to ask is carbon the way to go.

Dolan’s ADX comes in around 2300 euro..

The Cannondale CAAD 13 comes in at that price point depending on the build.

If you’re mind is set on carbon, certain set ups (race v. endurance) may not be the most comfortable. There is no point in having a race aero set up if it’s going to kill your body on a sportive ride.. it might look amazing and be well under 7kilos but if you need to be carried off it after 90minutes riding, it might not be the choice for you.

The suggestion above that it’s only cheap stuff sub 4K is pure pants...

Bang for buck, it’s hard to look past the Canyon Ultimate CF SL Disc 8.0 but there are many many other good carbon bikes in that bracket-have a look at the Giant Defy Advanced 1, Cannondale’s SuperSix Evo 105 and the Orro Gold STC Ultegra is simply a cracker.

I’d always look towards previous years models too, particularly if buying online. Look at sites like Hargreaves if you go down that line. There can be excellent bargains to be had, but it can come at the risk of fit and after sales service.

Either way, the best money you will spend will be on a proper bike fit-personally Aidan at bikefit.ie in Kilmacanogue Wicklow is excellent, and may be a very good starting point to discuss what type of riding you will settle into. This will dictate what this particular bike purchase will be!!!

The very best of luck with your purchase.. very exciting!

I had a look on the Dolan website, there seems to be some great bikes there all in around the 2/2.5k price range, ultegra group set and carbon.

I don’t know much about Dolan, is there a catch?

Fann Linn

Some lovely steel, alu and carbon bikes on the Ribble website also for the ops budget.

iwillhtfu

I'm not so sure about low end carbon at your price point but this one is certainly in opposition.

7kg :eek: round up to 2.5k with a pair of zondas you'll probably be under 7kg.

https://www.canyon.com/en-ie/road-bikes/race-bikes/ultimate/ultimate-cf-sl-8.0/2151.html?dwvar_2151_pv_rahmenfarbe=RD%2FWH&quantity=1

magicbastarder

iwillhtfu wrote: »

7kg :eek: round up to 2.5k with a pair of zondas you'll probably be under 7kg.

the claimed weight difference from the manufacturers seems to be around 60g, between the supplied wheels and zondas.

CramCycle

byrnem31 wrote: »

I just changed from a 2018 alu cube nuroad to a giant defy advanced 2 2020 carbon bike, €2250.
I had big thick anti puncture tyres on the nuroad and thought no way in hell will the new bike be as comfortable. The difference is night and day with the defy being way more comfortable. Its light years ahead of the cube though in fairness its twice the price. The comfort is through the frame.
.

The puncture proof tyres more than likely made your nuroad uncomfortable, they are not pleasant compared to good, non puncture proof tyres.

ckeego

maxamillius wrote: »

I had a look on the Dolan website, there seems to be some great bikes there all in around the 2/2.5k price range, ultegra group set and carbon.

I don’t know much about Dolan, is there a catch?

Great bikes. I have a couple of mates with them and they are solid, well built and well specced bikes.
I really enjoyed riding their track bikes too.

Plus one on the Ribble. I had an R872. Same frame as a much more expensive DeRosa -ultra light but boy was it aggressive geometry.

You will find some great value at that price point. In the past the big brands like Trek were overpriced as they were sponsored team bikes but these days there is just too much competition for them to levy you with Lance tax and the like. They’ve had to readjust..

ckeego

iwillhtfu wrote: »

I'm not so sure about low end carbon at your price point but this one is certainly in opposition.

7kg :eek: round up to 2.5k with a pair of zondas you'll probably be under 7kg.

https://www.canyon.com/en-ie/road-bikes/race-bikes/ultimate/ultimate-cf-sl-8.0/2151.html?dwvar_2151_pv_rahmenfarbe=RD%2FWH&quantity=1

Nice bike.. but not in red.

Pay the extra bit for discs?

maxamillius

ckeego wrote: »

Nice bike.. but not in red.

Pay the extra bit for discs?

That is a light bike alright, I believe the endurance is more geared toward long spins which is generally what I’d be doing?’

ckeego

https://www.canyon.com/en-ie/road-bikes/race-bikes/ultimate/ultimate-cf-sl-disc-8.0/2157.html

ckeego

It’s a good mix of weight, components and geometry. The only downsides of a Canyon is to be sure of the sizing (as the stems are not bog standard) and there have been issues in the past with BB shells and chain stays.

There can be a bit of a wait-highly sought after steeds...

maxamillius

ckeego wrote: »

Great bikes. I have a couple of mates with them and they are solid, well built and well specced bikes.
I really enjoyed riding their track bikes too.

Plus one on the Ribble. I had an R872. Same frame as a much more expensive DeRosa -ultra light but boy was it aggressive geometry.

You will find some great value at that price point. In the past the big brands like Trek were overpriced as they were sponsored team bikes but these days there is just too much competition for them to levy you with Lance tax and the like. They’ve had to readjust..

This one seems like good value for money

https://www.dolan-bikes.com/dolan-dr1-carbon-disc-road-bike-shimano-ultegra-r8020-copy/

ednwireland

nearly bought an endurace with discs but they didnt have the blue. so got a 2019 synapse di2 with discs (8.4kg) cant say i regret it. few hundred more for di2

ckeego

maxamillius wrote: »

This one seems like good value for money

https://www.dolan-bikes.com/dolan-dr1-carbon-disc-road-bike-shimano-ultegra-r8020-copy/

Nice...

Just bear in mind those wheels pictured are an extra hundred nicker...

CramCycle

Rose X Lite four, i have the six and it is glorious. The 4 is 6.8kg for €2399

maxamillius

ckeego wrote: »

Nice...

Just bear in mind those wheels pictured are an extra hundred nicker...

Ha ha ye, they draw you in and then stuff you for another bucket load of cash

Tony04

These https://www.merlincycles.com/sensa-giulia-g3-disc-ultegra-road-bike-2020-172336.html
https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/cube-agree-c-62-race-carbon-n-white-897118 are the cheapest carbon ultegra disc, I've seen out there.

I think though the giant tcr advanced 1 is the best value out there as it may not be the cheapest but definitely has a solid frameset.

Here's one on sale if it fits https://www.bike24.com/p2349320.html?menu=1000,173,157

byrnem31

CramCycle wrote: »

The puncture proof tyres more than likely made your nuroad uncomfortable, they are not pleasant compared to good, non puncture proof tyres.

I had clem xplor's on it before the puncture proof ones which were standard tyres and it was the same.
The d-fuse seat post and stem along with the carbon frame on the giant make it more comfortable.

Tony04

byrnem31 wrote: »

I had clem xplor's on it before the puncture proof ones which were standard tyres and it was the same.
The d-fuse seat post and stem along with the carbon frame on the giant make it more comfortable.

Your cube could have had a light cable rattle from badly designed internal cable routing, where as the giant would have a neater cable design and this wouldnt be an issue.

iwillhtfu

ckeego wrote: »

Nice bike.. but not in red.

Pay the extra bit for discs?

Normally I'd agree on the colour but everything is "stealth black" these days a bit of colour is nice. Bring back the artistic side of cycling that colnago etc went for. I'd only go for the disc model if I was going with carbon wheels otherwise rim brakes are plenty on a roadie.

iwillhtfu

magicbastarder wrote: »

the claimed weight difference from the manufacturers seems to be around 60g, between the supplied wheels and zondas.

I'm surprised at that those DT swiss wheels look like they're just something to keep the bike off the floor in the sales room.

magicbastarder

just googled them, they seem to be about €300-€330 online, so not exactly bottom of the barrel.

torturedsoul

MojoMaker wrote: »

Carbon isn't the be all and end all don't forget. A good high-end Alu bike probably a better investment than low-grade carbon, which is all you get in the sub-4k territory. I don't buy the performance angle necessarily, of course generally it's lighter but it comes with its own problems, it's more susceptible to scratches (particularly matt finishes), it doesn't take impacts too well, there are bottom bracket issues on many cheap carbon frames, and overall the material is less durable.

Of course, down the pub everyone wants carbon, but a well-specced Bowman, Ridley, or CAAD frame would be a fine bike to own.

Sad in a way that Canyon dropped their superlight AL frames but I guess the new cyclist only sees/hears carbon. I reckon after a few years in the sport/hobby you see folks coming back around to high-quality Alu, steel, and titanium eventually (when the pockets stretch a bit).

For years I have been seduced by carbon. Bought a beautiful Felt AR 4 and it was amazing but that was because I was coming from the entry level Giant defy 4. I had to sell the FELT and went back to the Giant. The entry level AL bike is giving me lower back pain due to the vibration coming up through the bike, through the saddle and into me arse. This never happened with the Carbon bike.

However, years later, I am now in a position to buy again and if I am going to be spending 1000's on a bike I don't want it falling apart. Carbon is a plastic bike essentially. I am now getting seduced by Titanium. Maybe the first 3 letters are leading me on here, but I wasn't necessarily blown away by the Carbon bike I had

torturedsoul

byrnem31 wrote: »

I just changed from a 2018 alu cube nuroad to a giant defy advanced 2 2020 carbon bike, €2250.
I had big thick anti puncture tyres on the nuroad and thought no way in hell will the new bike be as comfortable. The difference is night and day with the defy being way more comfortable. Its light years ahead of the cube though in fairness its twice the price. The comfort is through the frame.

A lifetime warranty on the frame for the original owner too. You cant make a guarantee like that unless they are well made. Also 2 year warranty if you crash and break the frame in the first 2 years. Shimano 105 with 11 gears. It's perfect and great on gravel. I'll never go back to aluminium. No road buzz, vibration, etc. coming through the bike.

F**K sake, Now I don't know what I should buy. (granted this is someone elses thread but I have a budget of about 3500-4000. Titanium or Carbon)

torturedsoul

Any good suggestions?

Tony04

torturedsoul wrote: »

Any good suggestions?

At that price either you can choose between an aero frameset, di2 or a titanium frameset.

Cee-Jay-Cee

iwillhtfu wrote: »

Normally I'd agree on the colour but everything is "stealth black" these days a bit of colour is nice. Bring back the artistic side of cycling that colnago etc went for. I'd only go for the disc model if I was going with carbon wheels otherwise rim brakes are plenty on a roadie.

I done the bright colours and designs and have now gone for the stealth black look. My S-Works roubaix is satin blank with polish black detailing and I’m considering removing the stickers from my wheels to match. You just can’t beat stealthy black, everyone I know now has bright colourful bikes so at least mine now stands out without standing out.

torturedsoul wrote: »

F**K sake, Now I don't know what I should buy. (granted this is someone elses thread but I have a budget of about 3500-4000. Titanium or Carbon)

I’d be going for carbon at the price point. Titanium is nice but IMO a good carbon bike is nicer. The problem I have with titanium frames is that they all look the same until your up closer and can read the brand name/model.

magicbastarder

torturedsoul wrote: »

Carbon is a plastic bike essentially.

true, as long as you're willing to ignore basic chemistry.

torturedsoul

magicbastarder wrote: »

true, as long as you're willing to ignore basic chemistry.

I am not a chemist. Basically I don't want to spend 3500-4000 on a bike that could shatter. I have heard horror stories :-( Just a bit nervous with my hard earned cash and the last thing I want is to feel nervous on the down hills.

I hear Titanium is more durable but my research is still new.

torturedsoul

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

I done the bright colours and designs and have now gone for the stealth black look. My S-Works roubaix is satin blank with polish black detailing and I’m considering removing the stickers from my wheels to match. You just can’t beat stealthy black, everyone I know now has bright colourful bikes so at least mine now stands out without standing out.



I’d be going for carbon at the price point. Titanium is nice but IMO a good carbon bike is nicer. The problem I have with titanium frames is that they all look the same until your up closer and can read the brand name/model.

Thanks for that. I really want to go back to Carbon but am torn.

magicbastarder

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

I’d be going for carbon at the price point. Titanium is nice but IMO a good carbon bike is nicer. The problem I have with titanium frames is that they all look the same until your up closer and can read the brand name/model.

cycle with your eyes closed! problem solved.

Tony04

If a carbon frame fails you can get a warranty replacement. Carbon is more likely to brake on impact, but the impact required to brake carbon would probably brake other bikes, unless you're on an mtb where there is rock fling etc. Carbon bikes should last a long time but if you want a bike you can ride for a lifetime go titanium.

MojoMaker

@maxamillius - have a look here for some thought-provoking options for titanium builds. At least two frames on this list are in very affordable territory and look the dog's danglies compared to a generic clone carbon build - https://road.cc/content/buyers-guide/12-best-titanium-road-bikes-255037#mozTocId239684

Macy0161

With Ti my research suggested that I think you have to be careful of the welds - I'd be looking at one that gives a substantial frame warranty.

Personally, n+1 will be steel (hopefully custom build).

CramCycle

+1 if its a lifer you want, steel is where its at in general. Depending on what you want from material, the most important thing is actually the frame builder. If they are good and you have the pocket for 953, wonderful. A bad frame builder could probably make a noodle out if it so this is why the frame builder is the most important part. I had a bike made out of some form of 4130CroMo which from what I can tell was not much different to some double butted Reynolds tubing in the 531 range. Best bike I ever rode, comfy, responsive, could ride across France and still place in an amateur race. The downside, if you don't look after it, you can get rust and other issues but thats a user issue.

ckeego

torturedsoul wrote: »

F**K sake, Now I don't know what I should buy. (granted this is someone elses thread but I have a budget of about 3500-4000. Titanium or Carbon)

There you go...

https://www.hargreaves-cycles.co.uk/m39b0s412p8507/CANNONDALE-SystemSix-Carbon-DuraAce-DEMO-2019

ednwireland

ckeego wrote: »

There you go...

https://www.hargreaves-cycles.co.uk/m39b0s412p8507/CANNONDALE-SystemSix-Carbon-DuraAce-DEMO-2019

that was my bikeshop (in a different location) when i was growing up

who_ru

CramCycle wrote: »

Rose X Lite four, i have the six and it is glorious. The 4 is 6.8kg for €2399

i heard about Rose bikes alright, good value for money by all accounts. What's the difference between the 4 and 6 i wonder?

magicbastarder

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

I done the bright colours and designs and have now gone for the stealth black look. My S-Works roubaix is satin blank with polish black detailing and I’m considering removing the stickers from my wheels to match. You just can’t beat stealthy black, everyone I know now has bright colourful bikes so at least mine now stands out without standing out.

i have a stealth black carbon bike, and could take it or leave it, looks wise.
as i was typing this, a chap cycled past the window on a similar bike. if you'd told me that it was the same as mine (which is unlikely), i'd not have batted an eyelid. they all look the same.
gimme a neon vomit late 80s MBK right now!