Question on jumping to a management position

eastwaller

1. I have been working in US tech firms for 10 years

2. Long story short - I have struggled at work due to lots of personal persons which I only became of last year - they are stress related but got a lot of new tools/ongoing help for myself. I am more than capable of doing the jobs I have been in - the problem is how "I play the game" & how I react to stress.

3. In US tech firms you always have to be seen to be moving up or trying to move up and it's usually a 2 year cycle in a position - where you either get promoted or leave - especially at lower levels.

4. I have been bad at expressing my wants/needs and soliciting advice from people around me on what to do to get me to next levels. Again this was related to the stress but something I am more conscious of now.

5. I watch everyone around me for the last 10 years move onto new things/move up whereas I feel 'stuck' as I have a hard time expressing my wants. I feel like I am getting older now and have to gravitate into a management position in order to extend my career in IT at least another 10 years. (I am 34 now.)

6. I have had the position of 'Program Manager' now for the majority of the 10 years.

7. I have managed contracting staff in my past (max 2 at a time) and feedback on me has always been great from those reporting into me. I have always been bad at "managing up" or "playing the game." Most of the environment of these US tech companies (and most others I imagine) is very 'who you know' rather than 'what you do' - especially in non technical IT roles. I have been passed over loads over the years.

8. I've come to a point now where I realised I have to play the game a lot more and do what everyone else around me has been doing to survive and progress.

9. I started a new job this year - amazing US tech firm but small enough operation in Dublin. I am working as a program manager. I am building relationships, managing stress okay (I think) and working incredibly hard. My manager is a lovely guy from the States - giving me good direction. I think I get on well with my director as she keeps looping me into good projects and gave me good advice the one time so far I had a 1:1: with her.

10. I am new to the job and still need to pass probation (also hoping nothing COVD-19 related happens) so have to get over my first 6 months.

My questions are:

1. How do I approach this conversation with my manager/director i.e. tell them I want to gravitate to a management position? (I obviously not going to tell them about the stress related issues) . I don't want to make it feel like I am coming for his job or anything like that you know?

2. A part of me feels that management positions in general can be very stressful in themselves and something I may not be ready for. I feel this is especially true in American IT companies (curve you are graded on, lots of stress related issues, backstabbing, conflict etc) so I am really unsure. My guess it would be really rewarding if you got the right team but if there are lots of issues it can be a stressful environment.

I'd love to know how people moved from Individual Contributor roles into management roles in IT before or how they switched. I'd also love to know how much 'stress' a management position really is.

Augme

1. You are only in there recently so if you start talking about moving position already then it will be a bit of a red flag imo. Just be more proactive in your roles and in taking on new opportunities that require working with various internal and external stakeholder. Rather than you saying you want to move into management, work towards creating a environment where your superiors would feel it would be a benefit having you work in management.

Talking about moving into management can be done at yearly review meetings or probation meetings but I would mention it in a casual way given you are new. As in long term you want to move into management etc.

2. It is hugely stressful but hugely rewarding. Some poeple love, some hate it, some are excellent at it, some are awful at it. As you've guessed, it is all very person dependent. I would say that if you have struggled to cope with stress before than you need to be very very aware of what you could be walking into. Self-awareness is a hugely important trait to be at management. So is self confidence. Also, US firms are notorious for being very stressful. It's their way if life. It's the capitalist system, they see people are commodities. They will chew you up and spit out when they think you don't provide enough worth for them. The good news is you will be financially very well rewarded. Again, depending on the person this is either a good or a bad thing.

My advice is to keep working aware as you are and see how you manage to deal with your stress over the next year or 2. As I said, get involved in projects and see how you get on with them.

Tbh, 34 is still very young. Don't feel you need to start moving up asap. The absolute worst thing you can do is rush into it. Because if you do, it could go badly wrong and set you back years.

eastwaller

Great advice. Thank you.

Elessar

Do you really want to move into management? What is your motivation?

I'm the same age as you and I work in IT as a developer/support guy and I'm happy out. I wouldn't get into management in a million years. If you're good at what you do, you enjoy it somewhat and the money is good, why move? Even if you say no to some of those, you can move company again. Tbh management is highly stressful and as I see it, I don't need that in my life. For better money I could probably move, but I like my job overall and it's stress free and close to home. I see no reason to move into management. The (small amount of) extra money isn't worth it, IMO.

It suits some people but you need to ask yourself if you really want even more stress in your life, and why, as it sounds like maybe you're not the management type.

Ask yourself this, if you could earn the same or similar money in a much lower stress position in your area, would you take it?

eastwaller

Elessar wrote: »

Do you really want to move into management? What is your motivation?

I'm the same age as you and I work in IT as a developer/support guy and I'm happy out. I wouldn't get into management in a million years. If you're good at what you do, you enjoy it somewhat and the money is good, why move? Even if you say no to some of those, you can move company again. Tbh management is highly stressful and as I see it, I don't need that in my life. For better money I could probably move, but I like my job overall and it's stress free and close to home. I see no reason to move into management. The (small amount of) extra money isn't worth it, IMO.

It suits some people but you need to ask yourself if you really want even more stress in your life, and why, as it sounds like maybe you're not the management type.

Ask yourself this, if you could earn the same or similar money in a much lower stress position in your area, would you take it?

Thanks for the answer.

- The devil on my right shoulder is telling me Augme's advice
- The devil on my left shoulder is giving me your advice above.

I think the motivating factor is I can do what I do a lot better than people I see that work in the area. I can have more having more impact managing. I also don't want to be a program manager all my life - usually people only do it for 1/2 years and then digress into a different area in IT.

LimeFruitGum

I think I'd be similar to OP - knows they have the potential, but hates politics & schmoozing. I can't lie to save my life. So I don't work in sales or accounts ;-) FWIW, I think 34 is fairly young to be a Program Manager - fair play.

I moved from a team lead program role in IT/Social Media to a dept manager role in a SME manufacturer last year and it's going great.
I put a high weight on company culture when I was job hunting though, I had more than enough of US tech culture after 13 years!
It didn't matter that I was new to their industry, and your soft skills & program management experience are very transferable. You don't have to stay in US tech to progress your career, unless you have some particular reason for it.

eastwaller

Thanks LimeFruitGum. It's something I may need to consider.

• I think all American company cultures are the same - regardless of industry. It's about "playing the game/visibility" to get ahead. You need to latch onto a manager/director who you get on with and if they leave - pray to God you get on with your new one.
• For tech we are not allowed to join unions (which is illegal in itself) and if you get into any hassle/conflict - good luck with the HRBPs who will always side with management/the company. Good luck trying to sue a big American tech company in a civil action.
• Golden Handcuffs - Let's face it life is good in these tech companies - free food, health insurance, pension etc so it makes it difficult to leave.

I think it will boil down to how long further I can stand it.

LimeFruitGum

I had 5 different managers in my last year at the old job. None of them understood much what I did, just as long as I kept everything ticking along smoothly I'm still in touch with two of them, as we got on well. It was super stressful though, with long hours and two years is definitely enough at one management role. My friendships did suffer as a result - the very last thing I wanted to do at the weekend was talk or text.

I do miss the free food, and I have to take the M50 now, but otherwise I'm very happy with the package. I appreciate the work-life balance where I am now. I've time to think and plan. I rarely ever have to do overtime. I can do my work, go home, work out, read, and not think about work again til the next day.

My partner is an IT program manager like you, and he was in Microsoft for years. He will always get an interview on the back of that Microsoft tenure, even though he left nearly 10 years ago. By the time he reached his 50s, he was finding that he was interviewing against young 'uns who could stand the pace, for less money. He moved to the energy sector two years ago, still doing Agile IT program management, and his experience has been similar to mine. He can do his 8 hours and log off, more stable, more money. No more midnight calls with some muppet in Seattle who wants to be walked through a spreadsheet.

I know I'm not sociopathic enough to scale the ladder in an IT company that would fire me as soon as look at me. It took me about six months to land something. I was pretty open about which industry, as long as it wasn't an American IT company.
I have a lot of transferable experience, I don't necessarily need to be a X industry expert. I bring what I bring, and it's up to me to convince the interviewer that I can learn the rest when I'm hired. I have several big names on my CV so I thought now is the time to leverage them into a more senior role that I would never have gotten in IT.

bbehan202

LimeFruitGum wrote: »

I had 5 different managers in my last year at the old job......

Thanks for your reply - great advice. I agree - I think I need to be a bit more prescriptive in terms of what matters to me the most and go for that i.e.

1. Do I want a real 9 - 5 (or 9 - 6)?
2. Do I want a commute?
3. Do any of the perks really matter to me apart from health insurance & pension?
4. In American tech companies there are always re-orgs and often your new manager doesn't know what to do themselves so that can be frustrating in itself. Do I want a stable manager for 2 or 3 years?
5. How much Kool Aid can I take? I don't work for Airbnb but did the culture interviews (and failed as I never stayed in an Airbnb) and it was like being indoctrinated into Scientology.

micosoft

Hi... advice coming from a slightly different angle...

You need to get over the political angle. All businesses have politics... but it reflects a mindset that will struggle in mgmt or indeed generally... you need to change that mindset.

What I see a lot in terms of difficulty in moving from Individual Contributor to Management is the need to be able to live with ambiguity. What I read between the lines in your message is your inability or dislike for ambiguity - a need for control. In program management this can be helpful to an extent... though more and more projects on the digital side are in a much more ambiguity. This is what causes you stress - a feeling that things are straightforward or controlled. The problem is that while this might work with software it does not work with people.

Learn to embrace ambiguity and it will reduce your stress and enable a role in management.

JustAThought

I would be asking what the OP’s motivation for wanting to be a manager is? They are already a Programe ‘Manager’ - and seem to be successful and good at it. It is the lure of sitting at the directors table, or more responsibility in deciding and driving a project, or does s/he want a team of people reporting(bringing their problems) to him. Or does he want more money - and what level of stress and additional hassle is he willing to absorb for this additional title change and cash?

For me I personally prefer not to have to deL with the myriad of personal issues/ professional lapses and administrivia that being a manager usually entails and in the past few years was blessed in getting a rare job that suited my talents and involved little internal people management but had a lit of external relationship management - which suited me to a T. I would be asking is there a role that might play to the OP’s obvious strengths and not create the wall of stress that managing people brings but would also deliver the kudos, salary increase and recognition that he (may) want?

It would also be interesting for the OP to say what triggers their stress? Overload of jobs, not being able to control wht is going on, unreasonable demands, not able to cope with the tasks in the timeframe for either perfectionism or lack of area knowledge/skills (eg IT?) That might help determine what kind of more senior role might suit them?

Also +1 for not saying to your new boss that you find stress a problem not that you wNt to be promoted to management when you are just in the door. They recruited you for a specific role - if the company grows and they see you as competent and proactive they may see you as someone to move up the chain if their new roles fit your skillset and experience .

I find moving job gets the proper career jump you need - but different companies may promote and nurture from within and give the 6 or 10k salary jumps from within - even with the big multinationals and tech powerhouses I have worked forI have never found this personally and am not prepared to slave for 10 or 15 years with incrimental pittance increases for the potential chance that when I am old I might be recognised and get a break.

Snow Garden

eastwaller wrote: »

6. I have had the position of 'Program Manager' now for the majority of the 10 years.

Apologies if I missed it, did a speed read.

How is 'Program Manager' not a management position? You are managing multiple projects? You do people management too right?

LimeFruitGum

bbehan202 wrote: »

Thanks for your reply - great advice. I agree - I think I need to be a bit more prescriptive in terms of what matters to me the most and go for that i.e.

1. Do I want a real 9 - 5 (or 9 - 6)?
2. Do I want a commute?
3. Do any of the perks really matter to me apart from health insurance & pension?
4. In American tech companies there are always re-orgs and often your new manager doesn't know what to do themselves so that can be frustrating in itself. Do I want a stable manager for 2 or 3 years?
5. How much Kool Aid can I take? I don't work for Airbnb but did the culture interviews (and failed as I never stayed in an Airbnb) and it was like being indoctrinated into Scientology.

My trade off was the commute, that's really the only negative thing. It's in an estate with feck-all in it. I had to get used to making up sandwiches and organising leftovers after dinner On the other hand, I get 1-2 WFH days per week, and a lot of us arrive between 7-8am, so my drive is about 40mins each way.