Farming family farm - Income record

Lovestolisten

Hi there,

Asking for a friend who has been farming the family farm for his elderly father.

Friend is early 40's , no family of his own and lives at home with parents.

He has never taken a wage or income from farm. It has always just gone into the farm account and everyone just go along.

He wants to see about applying for farm assistance payment, because of current hardships.

What should he do to go about making his working on the farm offical?
The farm does a tax return at the end of the year under his fathers name and all schemes/ herd numbers in fathers name also.

Any advice?
Thanks

TooOldBoots

He would need his own herd no to apply for farm assit.
Tax returns doesnt really come into it, it is more of an assessment at the time so the Welfare assessor would want to see The amount of EU payments he gets, what schemes he is in such as Glas, The number of livestock on average, is it a real working farm ie is there sheds, a tractor etc
And finally any off farm income would be taken into account.

The father would have to apply.

longgonesilver

Does the son work off farm?

Lovestolisten

Son works 100% of the time on the farm. It’s a fully operational farm, livestock, equipment etc ..

Son has no other income outside the farm

cute geoge

I would advise him to pull the pin at 40 years of age and nothing to his name ,if he has any siblings he might never get the farm over .Citizensin formation office will inform him what he is entitled to and when he has worked all his life on the farm and no previous social welfare he would have a claim on the farm when ever the boss man passes on

893bet

Lovestolisten wrote: »

Son works 100% of the time on the farm. It’s a fully operational farm, livestock, equipment etc ..

Son has no other income outside the farm

Where does he get money to “live” if he takes no wage from farm?

einn32

893bet wrote: »

Where does he get money to “live” if he takes no wage from farm?

I heard of a son working in the large family dairy operation. He went for a mortgage but had no payslips or anything to show the bank. It would make you wonder what is going on out there with farms.

893bet

893bet wrote: »

Where does he get money to “live” if he takes no wage from farm?

Probably just spends out of the parents account or the farm account. I know someone who was in a situation similar, worked the farm and never had anything in their name. All cheques would go into the mother’s name and she would lodge or cash them and just give cash to her son or sign cheques as he needed them to pay for stuff. Went on for many many years like that.

I’d say it’s far from unusual around the country and not just on farms but other small family businesses.

Lovestolisten

That seems to be exactly how it is, His parents give him 'spending money'... at 40 it's hard .. Banks have turned him down, he was in a relationship and he waned to build a house and have a family.. So when their own home was out of the question he kind of gave up.
He left her and just went into himself.
I think now he is trying to tidy things up but he has no idea how to go about it.

Yes he has siblings .. two sisters, and I think the 'presumption' is that he will ultimately be the beneficiary of the farm but I don't know if his presumption is 100% correct. (Just having a tiny insight into the family from a distance I don't know If I was trust the presumption)

Courts are full of situations like this .. K v K springs to mind immediately .. But I think its almost taboo for the issue to be raised in rural farming families, everyone just works, does what they are told and the odd few get away .. lol !!

Lovestolisten

893bet wrote: »

Where does he get money to “live” if he takes no wage from farm?

Parents give him the cheque book to pay for bits and some spending money when he needs it.

longgonesilver

There could be a second problem here as well. Has he been declaring an income to revenue ever year. The main issue is not the tax he might owe but the lack of prsi payments and not making returns. He might never want to claim welfare but might find that he can't qualify for a full pension.

Does he have a PPS number?

Walking away might be a bit extreme but maybe try sorting things out with his mother first, who knows she might surprise him and hand over at least some control.

He really needs to sort out his tax and PRSI situation. He might be allowed go back four years.

Cattlepen

Thus is a desperate position for this chap to be in. Parents should be ashamed of their selfishness

Dickie10

its extremely common in irish farming families. i was lucky my father was the opposite, couldnt wait for me to take it over, he still berates me if the odd letter comes in his name! i think it maybe the fact that our farm is first generation now entering second generation. my father bought it in the late 60s from working on buildings in england, but i always got the idea he could easily have bought a few houses or a pub if that way inclined.

Cattlepen

Dickie10 wrote: »

its extremely common in irish farming families. i was lucky my father was the opposite, couldnt wait for me to take it over, he still berates me if the odd letter comes in his name! i think it maybe the fact that our farm is first generation now entering second generation. my father bought it in the late 60s from working on buildings in england, but i always got the idea he could easily have bought a few houses or a pub if that way inclined.

I think there is a lot of truth in what you say about the first generation farm. Your father was forward thinking. Great man.
My grandfather was the same. Gave the lands he bought to his sons as soon as he bought it.

Lovestolisten

longgonesilver wrote: »

There could be a second problem here as well. Has he been declaring an income to revenue ever year. The main issue is not the tax he might owe but the lack of prsi payments and not making returns. He might never want to claim welfare but might find that he can't qualify for a full pension.

Does he have a PPS number?

Walking away might be a bit extreme but maybe try sorting things out with his mother first, who knows she might surprise him and hand over at least some control.

He really needs to sort out his tax and PRSI situation. He might be allowed go back four years.

Yes he does have a PPSN, he did some work off the farm way back 20 years ago.
What do you think would be his first step to sort out his tax/ prsi issue? Can he send a my enquiry to revenue or just apply for something and let SW come to him to help sort it out?

Dickie10

Cattlepen wrote: »

I think there is a lot of truth in what you say about the first generation farm. Your father was forward thinking. Great man.
My grandfather was the same. Gave the lands he bought to his sons as soon as he bought it.

yea if my father hears these type of stories it annoys him at the madness of it all. It has rubbed off on my brother who has his own building firm, hes done well and plans on retireing from physical work around 50 and living off the rental income of his properties. Says he has numerous plans for travelling with his wife when they rear the kids. I ask him will he set his kids up well for life hes not really sure thinks he would rather they go and do it without help at all, he says he may sell off his properties and enjoy the benfits in retirement himself. To be honest im thinking the same way, yes i may well expand as you have to farming but along the lines off long term lease. Come 60 I will hand back the leases and walk away.

Toetohand

It might be extremely common situation on family farms but that doesn’t make it right. IMO he needs a frank chat with parents on direction things are going. If a succession/ transition was not forthcoming I’d be suggesting he look at alternatives. There are well run progressive farms up and down the country screaming out for a skill set and experience of his type. It might jolt family into action.
The “family” farm has an emotional attachment for all but this case is way beyond that. He needs to look after his own future. Would feel very sorry for chap in his situation.

tanko

Very true.
Another consideration is what will happen if one or both of the parents has to go into a nursing home. The "fair deal" scheme will have to be looked into and if the farm isn't transferred in time it will be some mess then.

I think the fair deal scheme will probably push more people into early transfers than anything especially on part-time farms where the person taking it over isn't really relying on it and would possibly be happy enough taking it in an inheritance rather than a succession.

The fair deal changes that though as no one wants the farm to be hit with a bill.

ganmo

The lad is gonna be fecked, hes either gonna have a tax bill or a ****ty oap pension.

The farm needs an accountant asap

Kevhog1988

Kyrie Deep Aunt wrote: »

I think the fair deal scheme will probably push more people into early transfers than anything especially on part-time farms where the person taking it over isn't really relying on it and would possibly be happy enough taking it in an inheritance rather than a succession.

The fair deal changes that though as no one wants the farm to be hit with a bill.

My parents inherited a house that was subject to the fair deal. What a mess it is to sort out. I think the solicitor has been dealing with it for about a yr and a half now

Lovestolisten

Would it be a wise start to get him to register as an employee of the farm or maybe a partner in the farm?

What’s the smart first move to get him in track?
He’s literally zero record with revenue in the past 17 years .. nothing at all.
No SW payment or income.

cute geoge

Just an idea Could he lease the farm of the old crowd

Lovestolisten

cute geoge wrote: »

Just an idea Could he lease the farm of the old crowd

I don’t think that’s an option, what I gather is that no one speaks about the ‘business’ side of things.

So there’s probably no hope of anyone bringing that up.

I think what he really wants is some guidance to get his own situation in order. Like a revenue record and some kind of income history

He needs to be careful too not to land himself or the farm with issues due to being paid cash in hand for years etc.

He would be better to look at getting on the books going forward and don’t highlight the past at all imo.