Marriage Inconsistencies

clashburke

Hi guys,


I recently started to do a bit at my family tree after about a five year break and it seems i had a few bit wrong in it. I started the tree originally when I was about 11 and didn't write down where I got the information so I have started from scratch. Anyway to the Question:


I have a family in the 1911 census who are married 5 years with 3 kids.


The civil marriage record I have found today is for September 1911. The names are right, the place is right, everything. Im thinking they lied on the return. They are both listed on the 1909 birth cert I have found.



Has anyone ever seen this before?

L1011

This wouldn't be that uncommon. Quite easy to claim you're married if you've moved away from your original area for instance.

However, how common are the names?

clashburke

John Byrne and Margaret Lee


The address is very close to the address on her birth record, and her father name is William on both. Her parents are married in the same church aswell.


I also think that he is from not so far away, only one parish over.

pinkypinky

When churches reopen, it would be worth getting the church copy of the marriage so you can check the mothers' names and be very sure.

clashburke

Ive emailed the priest for a copy of the cert, so hopefully Ill get a reply before too long.

Ive no other alternative at the moment so I'm hoping they lied!!

pinkypinky

To be really sure though, you should start with first principles and go back from people now reviewing b/m/d certs and newspaper notices to make certain you're not researching the wrong family.

clashburke

Yes I have started from scratch and I have my great grand fathers birth cert listing these as parents.

My great grand mother (his wife) was alive 10 years ago and I did ask a few question, but being young I didnt ask all the right questions/ write down everything properly. There children are still around so I will ask them what they know aswell to confirm with the birth cert and marriage records.

Thanks for your help

clashburke

I have gotten a reply from the parish, but unfortunately it gives no more information than the civil cert. No mothers names.

I'm 95% sure this is the right people, but I can prove it.

genaunt

I wonder did you locate the birth and baptism records for the first two children on the 1911 census form, Sarah and Mary Jane? I'm asking this because it was easy enough to locate the civil records for Thomas (1910) and for four others born to John Byrne and Margaret Lee, after the census (between May 1911 to Feb 1915). All of these births were registered within a month of the birth. I couldn't locate civil records for the older two (maybe another piece to support the hunch that the wedding may have come later). If John Byrne was the 26 year old 'sulphur miner' living with parents, Thomas and Sarah Byrne, in House 4 Cronebane in 1901, you wouldn't be surprised that he named his eldest daughter Sarah and his eldest son Thomas - but that doesn't help with the marriage date!
Have you been exploring the Jane Byrne who married Edward McDonald on 30 Nov 1940? Would she have been the Jane born to John and Margaret Lee on 9 July 1912? If you get stuck on a direct line, it's useful to explore the extended family.

pinkypinky

If someone would stick in some links here, it would save time.

That said, have you checked these kids were not registered as a) unknown Byrne (i.e. at the Rotunda hospital) or b) Unknown Lee?

clashburke

genaunt wrote: »

I wonder did you locate the birth and baptism records for the first two children on the 1911 census form, Sarah and Mary Jane? I'm asking this because it was easy enough to locate the civil records for Thomas (1910) and for four others born to John Byrne and Margaret Lee, after the census (between May 1911 to Feb 1915). All of these births were registered within a month of the birth. I couldn't locate civil records for the older two (maybe another piece to support the hunch that the wedding may have come later). If John Byrne was the 26 year old 'sulphur miner' living with parents, Thomas and Sarah Byrne, in House 4 Cronebane in 1901, you wouldn't be surprised that he named his eldest daughter Sarah and his eldest son Thomas - but that doesn't help with the marriage date!
Have you been exploring the Jane Byrne who married Edward McDonald on 30 Nov 1940? Would she have been the Jane born to John and Margaret Lee on 9 July 1912? If you get stuck on a direct line, it's useful to explore the extended family.

No I cannot find Sarah or Mary Jane Byrne. I checked them as Byrne and Lee, but cannot find a definitive answer.


I know who all of the children of John and Margaret married (you are correct above). I also know that John Byrne and Margaret Lee address it correct. I know that Margaret Lees parent are William Lee and Mary Reid and where married in the same parish.


https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1911/09958/5620871.pdf


https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1911/01531/1620726.pdf


I know this is my Great grand fathers birth, with the same address as the marriage and the census below,


http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Wicklow/Ballinaclash/Cronemore/895513/

I have the Cronebane, family you refer to and I was thinking the same as you, But I am unsure how to link them without the mothers name on the marriage?

clashburke

pinkypinky wrote: »

If someone would stick in some links here, it would save time.

That said, have you checked these kids were not registered as a) unknown Byrne (i.e. at the Rotunda hospital) or b) Unknown Lee?

I have checked for every Unknown Byrne and Lee, whos mother is a Lee. I have also looked at Byrne's/Lee's without fathers listed. No Luck.


I put a few links in the above post.

pinkypinky

Byrnes in the valley: challenge extended. Everyone is a Byrne there now...

clashburke

I have confirmed that this is the correct marriage and Census return for John and Margaret.



Why they lied on the Census, return I can only guess, but I'm thinking its to do with them not wanting a record of the children born out of wedlock.

I still have no births for Sarah and Mary Jane but I do have Thomas's birth record in 1909, and the mother is Margaret Byrne formerly Lee. Lying here again?


I have searched the UK encase they got married/had the first two children whilst away, but no luck.


But atleast I now know that this is the correct marriage.

clashburke

I have also been trying to link John to the John in the 1901 Census in Cronebane.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Wicklow/Cronebane/Cronebane/1815148/


He is not present in the 1911 census
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Wicklow/Cronebane/Cronebane/896166/


The 1911 states that they have four children living; James and Thomas present , a daughter Margaret is married to a Heffernan also in Cronebane and maybe my John?


I cannot find another John Byrne who is a miner in 1911. No other marriages for John Byrne between 1901 - 1911 in the area. I cannot find a death for this John Byrne 1901 - 1911.


Also my Johns first four children are Sarah, Mary, Thomas, William. This would be following the naming pattern. (father mother, mothers mother etc.)


My question is am I seeing what I what to see or am I on the right track? Would anyone have a suggestion to try link these families?

Edit: I am going to ask some family members if they know of any link to the area.

pinkypinky

Could he have been a soldier or in prison? Then he'd be recorded with initials instead of his full name.