How can Ryanair break the law (EU261 Article 8 1 a) and get away with it?

paddy19

EU261 Article 8 1 (a) states:


Article 8
Right to reimbursement or re-routing
1. Where reference is made to this Article, passengers shall
be offered the choice between:
(a) — reimbursement within seven days


Ryanair on its web site states:

Customers who choose not to accept a free move or voucher will receive their refund in due course, once this crisis has passed.

Over the coming weeks and months, we will be working hard to process refund requests as quickly as we can.

https://www.ryanair.com/ie/en/useful-info/refund-voucher

How can they get away with appears to be a breach of the law?

Peregrinus

What makes you assume they'll get away with it? Any aggreieved passenger can take proceedings to enforce their rights. Or, consumer protection authorities can take proceedings. Or both. You think neither of these things is going to happen?

paddy19

Peregrinus wrote: »

What makes you assume they'll get away with it? Any aggreieved passenger can take proceedings to enforce their rights. Or, consumer protection authorities can take proceedings. Or both. You think neither of these things is going to happen?

No argument about individual redress. I have used it myself.

The problem is the CAR (the regulator) has accepted the airlines stand that they have to handle calls in order to process refunds.

"The Regulation requires an airline to pay a refund within 7 days when this option is chosen. We acknowledge the unprecedented disruption that COVID 19 has caused to the aviation sector and those working in it, the high volume of calls that airlines are dealing with and the absolute need to safeguard the welfare of staff. We appreciate that this timeline can be challenging in the current environment.

https://www.flightrights.ie/news/regulation-ec-2612004-guidance-note-on-flight-cancellations-refunds-and-vouchers.1045.html

This is simply untrue.

Passengers complete an online form that contains all the information required to process a refund automatically.
There is no technical reason why refunds cannot be processed automatically.

In normal times the airlines accept thousands of online bookings automatically from passengers.

TicketMaster refunds customers without human verification.

My test is simple if the airline was fined €100 per unpaid refund per day how long would it take to have them processed?

The issue isn't computer capability, the airlines want to hold on to passengers cash and the regulator shows no sign of enforcing the law.

Bikerman2019

While you are quite right in everything you say, these extreme times need extreme measures. While Ryanair may be big enough to weather this viral storm, a lot of airlines are not. If everyone got a refund, there would be no airlines left.


The rules are fine in normal times, but this is something else. I see a report that there is a possible change in the law in the pipeline. Common sense really, but not popular with people demanding their money back.


https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/ireland-asks-europe-to-suspend-law-requiring-airlines-to-refund-customers-for-cancellations-996742.html

BattleCorp

paddy19 wrote: »

My test is simple if the airline was fined €100 per unpaid refund per day how long would it take to have them processed?

The issue isn't computer capability, the airlines want to hold on to passengers cash and the regulator shows no sign of enforcing the law.

Most airlines probably don't have the cash on hand to refund customers even if they wanted to, so what's the point of imposing an additional financial penalty that would only worsen the situation.

paddy19

Bikerman2019 wrote: »

While you are quite right in everything you say, these extreme times need extreme measures. While Ryanair may be big enough to weather this viral storm, a lot of airlines are not. If everyone got a refund, there would be no airlines left.

The rules are fine in normal times, but this is something else. I see a report that there is a possible change in the law in the pipeline. Common sense really, but not popular with people demanding their money back.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/ireland-asks-europe-to-suspend-law-requiring-airlines-to-refund-customers-for-cancellations-996742.html

"If everyone got a refund, there would be no airlines left."

Many of these airlines are in trouble because they are badly managed, paid dividends and bought back shares when they should have been prudent with their finances.

Airlines are a cicyical business. You need to hoard in the good time to survive the bad times. In fairness Ryanair are in great shape.

I have no problem with governments deciding that airlines should be supported. That what governments and the EU are for. That's democracy and you live with it even if you don't agree with it.

I have a real problem with our government picking a random set of unlucky passengers and forcing them to giving these private companies a loan.

The other problem I have when an extremely profitable and cash rich company like Ryanair deliberately flouts the law and gets away with.

Bikerman2019

paddy19 wrote: »

"If everyone got a refund, there would be no airlines left."

Many of these airlines are in trouble because they are badly managed, paid dividends and bought back shares when they should have been prudent with their finances.

Airlines are a cicyical business. You need to hoard in the good time to survive the bad times. In fairness Ryanair are in great shape.

I have no problem with governments deciding that airlines should be supported. That what governments and the EU are for. That's democracy and you live with it even if you don't agree with it.

I have a real problem with our government picking a random set of unlucky passengers and forcing them to giving these private companies a loan.

The other problem I have when an extremely profitable and cash rich company like Ryanair deliberately flouts the law and gets away with.

I disagree. what is happening is extreme at the minimum. BA has 6% of their fleet flying. No airline can sustain that, hence twelve thousand jobs under threat.
And it is not the government doing this. It is TWELVE governments doing it. Does that not tell you something. This is a widespread thing to prevent the collapse of loads of companies and the associated jobs.

This situation is hurting a lot of people and mitigation is the key. Your refund may have to take a backseat.


Twelve is referenced from here.
https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/ireland-asks-europe-to-suspend-law-requiring-airlines-to-refund-customers-for-cancellations-996742.html

Sleeper12

paddy19 wrote:

How can they get away with appears to be a breach of the law?

I'm owed refunds from Aer Lingus, Ryanair and British Airways. Oh and loveholidays too. All will refund me but I will have to wait weeks or months.

Any laws, rules or regulations saying that they have to do it in X amount of time is for non Covid times. We are in a world emergency. All businesses are entitled to take longer to do anything in these times. Airlines have reduced staff due to the covid and distancing and yet they have to process the equivalent of several years worth of refunds.

You will have to be patient my friend. I am four weeks waiting for my British Airways refund.

paddy19

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Any laws, rules or regulations saying that they have to do it in X amount of time is for non Covid times. We are in a world emergency. All businesses are entitled to take longer to do anything in these times. Airlines have reduced staff due to the covid and distancing and yet they have to process the equivalent of several years worth of refunds.

The refund process could be automated by a couple of half competent programmers in a week.
The airlines have computer power to automatically process as many refunds as they want to.

Heather Humphreys wants to force a passenger who has lost his job to give Ryanair a loan!

So some airlines need money.
Normally they go to bankers, hedge fund managers, pension funds, shareholders
and put up an attractive proposition to get what they want.
The less attractive the proposition the more they pay.
Maybe that's not possible in these crazy times.

So they now want their passengers to give them a loan.

Ryanair one of the most cash rich airlines in the world is
going to force a mandatory loan on some poor guy who has lost his job.

Why not make the loan attractive and people who can afford it will take it up.

How about:
Cash refund within 7 days for anyone who needs the cash.

If Carlsberg did airline loans this is what it would look like:

+20% as a reward
Cash-able after 12 months.
Valid for 5 years
No fee transfer to another passenger.
No restrictions can be used just like cash.
EU guaranteed

No instead Ryanair first started with a loan where you lost your money if you didn't book within 12 months.
They were going to pocket your money and give you nothing.
The shear audacity is unbelievable.

Then the airlines decided that they would use there lobbying power to get politicians
to make loans from passengers mandatory with no rewards.

What's not to like.

Mike it attractive not mandatory and passengers will give the airlines a voluntary loan.

rock22

When it comes down to it, FG and FF are pro business not pro consumer/worker. So they will force unemployed consumers to bail out airlines. And they have support of other likeminded EU countries.
The last bail out shows that it would never do for the rich to lose out.

Sleeper12

paddy19 wrote: »

The refund process could be automated by a couple of half competent programmers in a week.
The airlines have computer power to automatically process as many refunds as they want to.

This is not true. Each & every refund must be done by hand. I booked a trip through ILoveholidays. I booked & paid for priority boarding to Ryanair & Aer Lingus. In this case I get refund directly from both airlines & the balance form the agent. I have another trip to Peru & booked seat numbers etc directly with British Airways.British airways refunds my travel agent, who then refunds me but British Airways refunds me for the seats & priority boarding etc.



I no longer have the card that these holidays were paid for with so they won't just be returning the money to the account it came from. Travel agent for Peru holiday issued a cheque. Lot's of our younger members wouldn't know what to do with a cheque for 4,500 euro as they have no physical bank but that's for another thread. A human from each of the airlines will need to deal with my refunds.


It's not anywhere as simple as you imply. Some of these bookings are complicated. It's not like buying something & returning it & they reverse the sale. Different people/agents might have paid for different parts of a trip. Trip might have been altered with extra funds paid from another card or by a different person altogether.



It's complex & time consuming but so long as I get paid in the next few months then I'm happy enough. You have to realize the times we are in. Woodies have changed their delivery times to up to 14 days. An Post are taking days or weeks longer to deliver goods. These aren't normal times.

Bikerman2019

Sleeper12 wrote: »

This is not true. Each & every refund must be done by hand. I booked a trip through ILoveholidays. I booked & paid for priority boarding to Ryanair & Aer Lingus. In this case I get refund directly from both airlines & the balance form the agent. I have another trip to Peru & booked seat numbers etc directly with British Airways.British airways refunds my travel agent, who then refunds me but British Airways refunds me for the seats & priority boarding etc.



I no longer have the card that these holidays were paid for with so they won't just be returning the money to the account it came from. Travel agent for Peru holiday issued a cheque. Lot's of our younger members wouldn't know what to do with a cheque for 4,500 euro as they have no physical bank but that's for another thread. A human from each of the airlines will need to deal with my refunds.


It's not anywhere as simple as you imply. Some of these bookings are complicated. It's not like buying something & returning it & they reverse the sale. Different people/agents might have paid for different parts of a trip. Trip might have been altered with extra funds paid from another card or by a different person altogether.



It's complex & time consuming but so long as I get paid in the next few months then I'm happy enough. You have to realize the times we are in. Woodies have changed their delivery times to up to 14 days. An Post are taking days or weeks longer to deliver goods. These aren't normal times.

I agree. These are extreme times. Also, the OP talking about rich companies demanding loans from poor unemployed people makes it sound like he is a martyr. If this is not managed properly, there will be a hell of a lot more people in this situation.


This is now damage limitation. If the companies go under, they may never be back. The jobs will be lost permanently. His demanding about how simple a refund is is stupid. He is skirting the real issue


While refunds are due, the rules need to change as it is not black and white. The governments are trying to reduce the long term effects for everyone.


He can come here and rant about breaking the law, but this is an emergency situation and the laws will be overridden by emergency law and amendments. Hence, the multiple governments going to the EU for a varience of the rules.

paddy19

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I no longer have the card

Some of these bookings are complicated.

but so long as I get paid in the next few months then I'm happy enough.

The government have supported mandatory vouchers where you won't get your money for 12 to 18 months.

The reason the airlines want to process refunds manually is to make it slow and awkward.
They are looking for any excuse to keep your money.

Of course, some of these bookings like yours are complicated.
You no longer have your card.
There are always a minority of exceptions.

Let's say 10% of bookings have to be managed manually.
Why would the airline put 90% of passengers
through the manual process and delay the vast majority of refunds? Delay, delay, delay!

The booking process is fully automated online.
A tiny minority of bookings have to managed by call centres.
Nobody would propose putting every booking through call centres.



If the regulator imposed a fine of €100 per day for every delayed refund
how long would it take Michael O'Leary to automate the process?

paddy19

Bikerman2019 wrote: »

This is now damage limitation. If the companies go under, they may never be back. The jobs will be lost permanently. His demanding about how simple a refund is is stupid. He is skirting the real issue

I have massive sympathy for everyone working in the airlines.

I agree the government and the EU should support airlines to protect jobs.

But why ask a random minority of unlucky passengers to provide the funding?

This a stunt by lazy politicians who see an easy target.

Ryanair, the most cash rich of the airlines, didn't help by pushing restrictive vouchers
that pocketed your money if you didn't book in 12 months.
The shear audacity of this theft was breathtaking.

Aer Lingus in fairness had the right idea with attractive vouchers, 5 year expiry, no fee name change.

Make vouchers irresistible and lots of passengers will feel good about supporting airline workers.

Optional voucher:
+20% bonus.
No fee name change
Optional 7 day refund after 12 months.
No expiry date.

72 hour automated refund for passengers who need the money.

Mandatory vouchers is a blunt instrument effecting people who like airline workers might loose their jobs.

paddy19

Ryanair have updated their refund page.

"Customers who choose not to accept a free move or voucher
will receive their refund in due course, once this crisis has passed."

This was clearly in breach EU 261 refund within 7 days requirement.

Why is the Commission for Aviation Regulation allowing this blatant breach of the regulation?

Ryanair's excuse that it can't automate refunds is not tenable.

https://www.ryanair.com/ie/en/useful-info/refund-voucher

Bikerman2019

What random minority?

This is affecting everyone and every airline.

Ryanair being Ryanair, expect them to try to have it as tight as possible. They are known for it

Claw Hammer

Anyone who books with Ryanair deserves what they get.

cgcsb

I think everyone will get their refund if they just hold their horses, calm down and wait. It's against the rules alright, but the present crisis wasn't foreseen when the rules were drafted. Who could predict the entire global aviation industry being completely grounded for months? nobody. Storms cause disruption but only for a day or two. Ryanair probably can afford to refund everyone now, but the majority of the world's airlines cannot.

I'm due a refund of over €400 from Ryanair, and I accept I'll have to wait a while. No need to panic.

mdebets

It's quite simple, none of the airlines can afford to refund all of its customers that couldn't fly in the last weeks and in the weeks to come, because none have the money to do so.
If we just look at Ryanair, who had an average of 2.6 Mio passangers per week last year. If all of them would get an average refund of 100 €, that would burn through 260 Mio € per week. Add to this the additional costs Ryanair has, for storage of planes, maintenance, keeping the airworthines of planes and pilots, as well as staff costs, costs for offices, etc. (good article about these costs here). All of this without getting a single Euro in income. That would burn through most of its 4 billion cash reserve they have very quickly. Then they have to plan for potential changes in the planes in the future for hygiene reasons.
And the stupid idea of fining them for not refunding, would just mean you would get no refund at all, because they would have to pay these fines first and then have no money for refunds.

Claw Hammer

mdebets wrote: »

It's quite simple, none of the airlines can afford to refund all of its customers that couldn't fly in the last weeks and in the weeks to come, because none have the money to do so.
If we just look at Ryanair, who had an average of 2.6 Mio passangers per week last year. If all of them would get an average refund of 100 €, that would burn through 260 Mio € per week. Add to this the additional costs Ryanair has, for storage of planes, maintenance, keeping the airworthines of planes and pilots, as well as staff costs, costs for offices, etc. (good article about these costs here). All of this without getting a single Euro in income. That would burn through most of its 4 billion cash reserve they have very quickly. Then they have to plan for potential changes in the planes in the future for hygiene reasons.
And the stupid idea of fining them for not refunding, would just mean you would get no refund at all, because they would have to pay these fines first and then have no money for refunds.

Ryanair only carried about 3m passengers a week last year and only . so where you are getting 260m a wek from? In any case not all of them will have paid €100 for the seat and not all will have booked months in advance. They can well pay everyone back.