Foal Purchase

spuddiesal

Hi All,

Some advice on the below would be appreciated.

Myself and a friend of mine are going purchasing a filly foal at the sales later next year. We haven't reared a racehorse before so this will be new us. We both were brought up on farms so we have the facilities. Plan is to buy a foal and sell as a store. I've spent days going through sale results from previous years and every day is a school day.

I will be getting a Bloodstock Agent onboard to purchase for us. Max budget is 10k for purchase. We will then put 1.5k aside per year for feeding/vets etc. We understand the risk that we mightn't sell as a store. So if that fails we could go down the P2P (Costly) or breeding route.

So has anyone any advice?

Thanks

famagusta

Hi,

Myself, the father and a friend have been tipping away at this for the last few years after selling our broodmares. We try buy a few each year and sell them as stores, you'd learn a few lessons along the way....

I would buy a colt instead of a filly, he will be much more likely to increase in price more and therefore more likely to make a few bob, if the filly doesn't grow or isn't nice she will not sell

Foals are not vetted, you could easily buy one with wind problems etc. that's why we try buy two/three modest priced foals rather than one expensive one. spread the risk
Maybe buy a yearling, they are vetted and you need to keep them one year less.

It is a rollercoaster, The last few years we bought a foal for 15k, his pedigree improved massively before he was going to the store sales and we thought he was worth 80k, failed the vet with his wind, still sold him for 30k, has had a wind op since and won his point to point a couple of months ago.

We had another, he was nearly 20k as a foal, his sire went out of fashion by the time he was three, didn't sell and we are now paying training fees!!!

I wouldn't be using an agent for foal sales, i'd bring someone that knows a bit about horses, theres loads of lads that will do that but you have to be sure they aren't buying off their mates, and as I said maybe buy two for around 6-7k each than one expensive one, we have done better with the cheaper purchases with up and coming sires than expensive purchases.

show me the money.1

famagusta wrote: »

Hi,

Myself, the father and a friend have been tipping away at this for the last few years after selling our broodmares. We try buy a few each year and sell them as stores, you'd learn a few lessons along the way....

I would buy a colt instead of a filly, he will be much more likely to increase in price more and therefore more likely to make a few bob, if the filly doesn't grow or isn't nice she will not sell

Foals are not vetted, you could easily buy one with wind problems etc. that's why we try buy two/three modest priced foals rather than one expensive one. spread the risk
Maybe buy a yearling, they are vetted and you need to keep them one year less.

It is a rollercoaster, The last few years we bought a foal for 15k, his pedigree improved massively before he was going to the store sales and we thought he was worth 80k, failed the vet with his wind, still sold him for 30k, has had a wind op since and won his point to point a couple of months ago.

We had another, he was nearly 20k as a foal, his sire went out of fashion by the time he was three, didn't sell and we are now paying training fees!!!

I wouldn't be using an agent for foal sales, i'd bring someone that knows a bit about horses, theres loads of lads that will do that but you have to be sure they aren't buying off their mates, and as I said maybe buy two for around 6-7k each than one expensive one, we have done better with the cheaper purchases with up and coming sires than expensive purchases.

Was it Shirocco I have noticed he has really gone out of fashion at the sales?
Having plenty winners before the lockdown.

chancer007

very interesting thread lads, someday in the future I hope to do the same. no way would I use an agent, loads of decent people out there who know their confirmation & pedigrees. biggest thing you need is luck!
I would personally take a chance on a well-bred filly foal with the view to racing her. I guess as the other poster alluded too, its a numbers game so youse could take a chance & buy a filly & colt foal. Best of luck in your adventure & hope whatever you choose works out. will follow this thread with interest.

famagusta

show me the money.1 wrote:

Was it Shirocco I have noticed he has really gone out of fashion at the sales? Having plenty winners before the lockdown.

Good man, it was, they will sell well in England still but the irish lads dont want them, they take too long to come to hand so none of the point to point lads want them.
We're going to point him anyway and if he goes any way well he will be gone to england asap

show me the money.1

famagusta wrote: »

Good man, it was, they will sell well in England still but the irish lads dont want them, they take too long to come to hand so none of the point to point lads want them.
We're going to point him anyway and if he goes any way well he will be gone to england asap

We picked up a lovely 2 year old filly for handy money last year iv being keeping an eye on his runners since and horses through the sales, the dam has 2 to run ahead of us hopefully they will show some promise.

The Tetrarch

chancer007 wrote: »

no way would I use an agent, loads of decent people out there who know their confirmation & pedigrees. biggest thing you need is luck!

This is the best advice here. Do your own looking and buying. Many people will help. Why get an agent who will only buy you an expensive horse? Buy a cheap horse.

I was in Goffs in the coffee shop three years ago and the person I was with had gone away for a few minutes. Nearby was an agent giving a young prospective owner advice. It was all cliche and breeding terminology - clueless bluff and bluster.

You could go to sales, jump or flat, and look at the horses at the barns. No need to ask people to bring out horses for you to see. Just look at what is out walking. If you do not see horses every day this is a good way to get an idea of what a horse looks like.

spuddiesal

Thanks all for replies. Very helpful.

Regarding an Agent I just don't want to end up with an unsound foal. I would be able pick out the pedigree's myself its just I wouldn't have the eye.
I was also thinking that if/when I go to the store sales with the horse it will look better on paper that a good Agent bought it as a foal. I wouldn't be a person that would be led astray by someone so i'll only use an Agent if I know they are decent.

famagusta

show me the money.1 wrote: »

We picked up a lovely 2 year old filly for handy money last year iv being keeping an eye on his runners since and horses through the sales, the dam has 2 to run ahead of us hopefully they will show some promise.

Best of luck with her, sires often go out of fashion and come back in again so hopefully we'll offload our lad handy enough

The Tetrarch

Why do you want to buy a foal?
I have a flat foal, a yearling, and two year old. It is impossible to know how the foal will develop. I think it would be easier to assess a yearling.

If you think agents are experts you must not have read my posts of my analysis of all 450+ yearlings sold at a flat sale a few years ago.

The yearlings were unnamed and I went to the trouble of finding their names and race records.
3 of the 450+ yearlings (0.65%) made 38% of the prizemoney won by the 450+ yearlings.
Even including those three big winners the average loss was about 5k (race earnings minus auction price), and that was before keep and training fees (probably another 40k loss).

130 of the yearlings disappeared, and my guess is they were not good enough to train.
Remember these yearlings were bought in the main by experts - bloodstock agents and trainers - on commission, not paying their own monwy..

spuddiesal

Where would I pick up a Yearling? No I didn't see your piece on the Yearlings. Very interesting. Reason I was going with a foal was mainly down to price. I'm hoping to pick up one between 5-10k. Id also like to gain experience rearing a horse.

The Tetrarch

I only analyse flat horses.
If you are going to a sale and want me to analyse the NH catalogue i.e. all the horses, let me know in advance (before or as soon as the catalogue is released).
No charge obviously for my hobby. Send me a PM (personal message) on boards.ie.
I think it is best to analyse all the horses. Picking a few and asking an opinion on those is imo not the way to go.
I may be wrong, but I will give an opinion. The opinion may be there is nothing interesting in the sale.

What I do is I get the Excel spreadsheet file on the auction house website, download it, turn it into a database file, and extend the pedigrees beyond the name, sire, dam, damsire they supply.
Flat horse and jump horses are chalk and cheese but I looked at the pedigree of Kauto Star and he has the features (inbreeding) of a good horse missing in 95%+ of horses.
"computer says no" is the usual answer with my analysis. You want speed, even in NH. The fastest horse wins.

In Nov/Dec 2019 I analysed the flat mares at breeding stock sales . I was not buying at that sale.
I selected two mares as giving the best chance of a good foal if bred to the correct stallion for them. They sold for 1k and 3k.
They may have been useless, but the unproven mares sold for 50k or 100k could also be useless.

Robson99

Best of luck with your new venture.
I take it that it is the national hunt route you are going at.

Couple of things of note from my limited experience
Its hard buy the middle of the road foal. What was 5 -7 k a few years ago is now 10 - 15k.
Sires can go in and out of fashion very quickly. As Shirocco above whose progeny seem to need time.
When it comes to the 3yo store sale its hard to get into if your foal is not from a fashionable stallion or a stallion at one of the big studs.
Make sure what you buy has scope to grow into 16.1+...hard sell a 15.3 horse.
Watch the 3 yo sales and see which stallions have a lot of horses withdrawn...can be a sign of wind issues.
If buying a filly try and buy fairly good pedigree and an active one if possible.

It's not easy as highlighted above the more you have the greater spread of risk. Possibly a 10k and 5k purchase...but don't expect to get into the top 3yo sales with them unless you very lucky

Robson99

[QUOTE. You want speed, even in NH. The fastest horse wins.[/QUOTE]

I would agree with this. A lot of mares out of staying pedigrees and stallions that won 1m6f - 2m4f are then crossed with stallions that won over these extended distances. While you might have a sales horse imo you end up with a boat and a slow one at that.
I think more mares out of staying stallions need to be covered with stallions who were 1m -1m2f winners to inject a bit of speed back into NH pedigrees.
Problem is there are very few of these at stud covering NH mares.
Another problem is that we are getting a lot of mares out of Saddlers Wells stalliond being covered by Galileo and Montjeu stallions. I think we need more diversity. Just my opinion

chancer007

to the original poster. any sale in particular you are targeting to buy a foal?
I had a look at last years Goffs NH December foal sale results, foals from €1k to €70k+, so a wide variety to suit everyones pocket.
for the unsold store horses that end up going down the pt-2-pt, is it common to do a 50-50 deal with some pt-2-pt trainers? I know one breeder who has a horse in training, pays no fees but if sold trainer gets 50% of sale price.

califano

spuddiesal wrote: »

Hi All,

Some advice on the below would be appreciated.

Myself and a friend of mine are going purchasing a filly foal at the sales later next year. We haven't reared a racehorse before so this will be new us. We both were brought up on farms so we have the facilities. Plan is to buy a foal and sell as a store. I've spent days going through sale results from previous years and every day is a school day.

I will be getting a Bloodstock Agent onboard to purchase for us. Max budget is 10k for purchase. We will then put 1.5k aside per year for feeding/vets etc. We understand the risk that we mightn't sell as a store. So if that fails we could go down the P2P (Costly) or breeding route.

So has anyone any advice?

Thanks

Ask Kevin Blake on twitter. He always gets back and would have advice from experience. He would at least point you in the right direction.

Johner

chancer007 wrote: »

for the unsold store horses that end up going down the pt-2-pt, is it common to do a 50-50 deal with some pt-2-pt trainers? I know one breeder who has a horse in training, pays no fees but if sold trainer gets 50% of sale price.

Yeah that would be common. We have a few and have sold a few with probably the top p2p trainer. He won’t take the horse if he doesn’t like the look of it though. Doesn’t want to waste his own time as it will be 50% his.

ComplyOrDie

Advise on assistance
If you purchase a foal you'll need to avail of a farrier service multiple times before you get it back to a store sale. Farrier can perform corrective work on some conformational issues if caught on time, while they may not be able to work miracles in most cases they can assist a lot. My suggestion is to get your farrier to attend the sale with you, they will have razor sharp eyes in terms of conformation and as you'll be giving them routine business with regular checks over the next few years it's in their interest to point out issues and challenges and likelihood of correction efforts working. A lot of farriers usually attend the sales when they’re on, either as a spectator, advisor or in some cases buying and selling.

Filly or Colt
This is usually down to preference and can usually be dictated by budget. There is no doubt the money market tends to be focused on colts/geldings, but a filly can make money if you catch them right (in my experience 3yo filly’s need some page backing before they start to make money, just the breeding aspect come into play) while for the geldings a good model can grab attention and people tend to be willing to take a chance on him driving up the price even if his page is not black.

Keep your eyes open and don’t be naive (sharks will be roaming looking for a fool and his money)
I often see rookie mistakes when at the sales :
- Impulse buying (we came to buy one. it's getting late in the day and you end up panic buying)
- Getting sucked into bidding wars (ahh one more bid and it's ours, never pay more than 10% below your valuation, if you go beyond it no longer value)
- Not having awareness of what’s going on (whose bidding on the horse, friends of vendor etc)

Some homework
Ahead of the sale try to identify what the page will look like in 2 years, you'd be amased at how many don’t do this. If you buy the first produce or 2nd produce you have no or a really small window for the 1st dam to get blacker by the time your foal gets to the sale. For me if I was buying a foal to bring back as a 3yo I’d be looking closely at something that oldest sibling is 6, has siblings (3,4,5 yr olds) by relatively decent sires (these stock will be still to run for you), you'd be taking a chance that something there clicks and is somewhat decent and by the time you get to the sales you foals has become a 1/2 or full to xxxx

1000s of horses will sell over the days, go look at loads, put a valuation on them before they go into ring, watch closely who's connected to the horse and watch their behaviour when bidding starts, you'll see all kinds of stuff go down but best of all you'll start to get practice and refine you valuations + this will help with your confidence and make you aware that sharks will be looming as with anything that involves parting of cash. I’d also say attend the derby or landrover sales and practice something similar but with covid that’s not something that can be advised.

Be wary of the catalogue page
Do your homework on horses family, don’t rely on the page they print (I once bought a 1/2 brother to a G1 winner for 2k, it wasn’t printed on his page). I tend to race what I buy so I look for value, I have some sires I wouldn’t buy (just have disliked their stock usually from a form perspective or had a bad experience with a previous horse) but as I look for hidden gems I generally have no issues buying something that’s unfashionable. From a reselling perspectives this approach wouldn’t be ideal, but if you follow the flock you'll pay for the ideal model, who has a currently desirable pedigree, so you'll need to be clever in how you expect to seek some kind of value for your budget be that by taking a change on a pedigree that could get blacker or a filly.

Some other points about pages that should be noted:
A winner does not always mean it was smart. A winner could be a 0-95 hcap winner on it's 20th run or it could be a mdn hrdl winner who ran to 120 on its 2nd start and never ran again (maybe got injured), likewise a horse could be performing to a relatively high level without winning, I’d rather buy a horse who’s brother was running to 120 and placing than a 3 time winner off 95. The 120 horse has more ability and over the next 2 years should pick up its races and possibly run in grade Bs giving the page a bigger boost

Not all relatives are listed, you'll see comments like this "dam of 2 winners from 8 runners and 13 previous foals" the question to ask here is if she had 13 foals 2 of which were winners from 8 that made it to the track, are those other 4 still to run are those 6 that didn’t win hitting the bar and running to any kind of level? will this page be blacker in 2 years?. Occasionally the duds aren’t listed in the page, so you’ll need to do form homework.

I’d tend to avoid stock from an older mare as it's riskier from a page is about to be completely exposed if something doesn’t fire soon and fire in a big way.

Doing a deal with p2p men
It'd been mentioned that some people strike deals with the p2p men to cover training fees. You need to be realistic here those deals are usually for stock that have significant value and appeal. As horse would be in training for let’s say 9 mths no p2p man will do a deal for something that not selling for 10k+. The market to the UK (where these p2p guys are mainly selling) tends to be for big correct horses by fashionable sires so as someone already pointed out they will have a certain type that they'll be interested in, basically your 3yo will need to tick a number of boxes before they will do a deal (just something to be aware of as they usually have the power with plenty of people looking for similar deals)

Lastly best of luck with the purchase, it's always a memorable journey with highs and lows

welovefarming

Well just wandering are you still buying foals and how are you getting on with them