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Workplace fraud.

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  • 22-04-2020 12:09pm
    #1
    ContainsBarley
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭


    Hey Guys,

    just looking for some advice.

    The man I have been working for for the past year is a v.bad man. Has no conscience when it comes to either his customers or his staff. He is dreaded by his staff and there is a long list of liberties he has taken against people.

    He fraudulently overcharged a large multi national company to the tune of thousands of euro over 2 separate occasions in a year. The company in question suspected something was not right and questioned the bills over email but it is a situation which was very hard for them to prove. But I witnessed the fraud happen and am looking for any advice which can be offered on whether to proceed or not?

    thanks for your help in advance.


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    #2
    BluePlanet
    Registered Users Posts: 2,346 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    Proceed how?
    Proceed to keep working there or out him?


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    #3
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Pass the information to the other company or Garda fraud squad.

    Be aware your job could well be in jeopardy and if you can I'd be looking for elsewhere to work if at all possible....

    Understand at the moment work is scarce....


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    #4
    ContainsBarley
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭ContainsBarley


    I am on temporary lay off now due to covid and probably wont be going back once it's over.


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    #5
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    I'd shop the guy and not look back.

    There's another company in the mid west I hear and they're up to their neck in sh1t .

    Litigation going to them left right and centre, they shafted the wrong people and kept on the eye candy...

    Saying there's no work for the others and put the hand picked one minute into the interview good looking new staff in the shafted people's position's.

    The shafted people were there up to 7 years and his eye candy are in the door less than a year...

    I can't fckin wait to see how it pans out, one of the shafted staff members husband is a solicitor and he's representing them all collectively for free...

    Popcorn out


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    #6
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,065 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    ContainsBarley wrote: »
    Hey Guys,

    just looking for some advice.

    The man I have been working for for the past year is a v.bad man. Has no conscience when it comes to either his customers or his staff. He is dreaded by his staff and there is a long list of liberties he has taken against people.

    He fraudulently overcharged a large multi national company to the tune of thousands of euro over 2 separate occasions in a year. The company in question suspected something was not right and questioned the bills over email but it is a situation which was very hard for them to prove. But I witnessed the fraud happen and am looking for any advice which can be offered on whether to proceed or not?

    thanks for your help in advance.

    The best way to proceed would be to seek legal advice or drop the idea all together.

    What you have described is on the face of it is a possible breach of contract, I say possible breach because it depends entirely upon what is in the contract and how the process is perceived by both parties to the contact. Arguments over pricing and contract terms etc... are civil issues not criminal ones. And that is why multinationals have purchasing and legal specialists for.

    Fraud is a criminal offence and comes with an array of legal definitions and conditions... whether or not what you witnessed was in fact fraud, within the meaning the law, is something you should seek legal advice on.

    Everyone is entitled to their good name, so you need to be very careful about making accusations about the character of a business and its owners, because if the accusations are found to be groundless, you could face legal action from the business. It would not be about compensation, but more their legal advisor would recommend it so that their name is cleared and that that finding is in the public domain.

    Bottom line, get legal advice.


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    #7
    ContainsBarley
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭ContainsBarley


    The owner willingly told staff to add items to the bill that were not received to drive there bill amount up. It was 100% fraud and I was told that its just what happens there. Staff went ahead with it out of fear because there would be blow back from the owner if it didnt happen.


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    #8
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,065 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    ContainsBarley wrote: »
    The owner willingly told staff to add items to the bill that were not received to drive there bill amount up. It was 100% fraud and I was told that its just what happens there. Staff went ahead with it out of fear because there would be blow back from the owner if it didnt happen.


    That is called hearsay and it is usually not allowed in court. Get legal advice, act and learn by doing... the choice is yours. Let us know how it goes.


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    #9
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    I would not get involved.

    Sounds like you will be dragged into a huge mess.


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    #10
    daheff
    Registered Users Posts: 5,846 ✭✭✭daheff


    ContainsBarley wrote: »
    The owner willingly told staff to add items to the bill that were not received to drive there bill amount up.

    If it's not received, then it should be possible for the customer to check this and confirm?

    Of it's a physical product then it's black and white. If it's a service then the customer needs to ensure 1 it was ordered and 2 it was delivered.


    While your boss sounds unscrupulous, there is also an onus on the customer to check they received what they ordered.

    Tbh I'd advise you to stay out of it.


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    #11
    salonfire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    nthclare wrote: »
    I'd shop the guy and not look back.

    There's another company in the mid west I hear and they're up to their neck in sh1t .

    Litigation going to them left right and centre, they shafted the wrong people and kept on the eye candy...

    Saying there's no work for the others and put the hand picked one minute into the interview good looking new staff in the shafted people's position's.

    The shafted people were there up to 7 years and his eye candy are in the door less than a year...

    I can't fckin wait to see how it pans out, one of the shafted staff members husband is a solicitor and he's representing them all collectively for free...

    Popcorn out

    I'm not expert here, but is there anything illegal about taking on eye-candy?
    A person's looks is not one of the workplace discriminations like race or age.

    I'd imagine it would be difficult to prove .. be interesting to know how it plays out.


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    #12
    ContainsBarley
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭ContainsBarley


    I was thinking of an anonymous email to the customer and then playing dumb? He can't be let get away with it. It happens too often


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    #13
    IAMAMORON
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,078 ✭✭✭IAMAMORON


    Waffles, it never happened.


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    #14
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,065 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    ContainsBarley wrote: »
    I was thinking of an anonymous email to the customer and then playing dumb? He can't be let get away with it. It happens too often

    Anyone with half a brain will not act on such a mail, but turn it over to IT security types or delete it.

    And anonymous emails are only so if your hacking skills are better than their IT people.....


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    #15
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,331 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    That is called hearsay and it is usually not allowed in court. Get legal advice, act and learn by doing... the choice is yours. Let us know how it goes.

    OP has suggested that they have eyewitnessed this.
    I think we all have an obligation to report fraud if we witness it.

    People like the OP's boss will get away with dishonesty until someone speaks up.
    OP, your job is actually safer if you speak up due to the protected disclosures act 2014. See citizens information for details. So it is actually in your interests to disclose what you know as if your employer refuses to take you back or treats you differently, they will end up in a heap of trouble and you will get a payout.

    You can't lose by following up and doing the right thing.


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    #16
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,065 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    OP has suggested that they have eyewitnessed this.
    I think we all have an obligation to report fraud if we witness it.

    If you read carefully you'd note that I was referring to the bit where the OP stated: I was told that.....
    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    People like the OP's boss will get away with dishonesty until someone speaks up.

    Well having worked in this are in Ireland back in the late 80s, I'm well aware of what goes on. I also know that there is a very big gap between I'm of the opinion that x committed fraud and preparing the book of evidence that actually gets a conviction. You need to have a lot more that "I think", "I heard" or "I saw" because if you don't it is likely to fail, leaving you open to legal action as well.


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    #17
    Mango Joe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭Mango Joe


    I wholly disagree with the 'just let it go' advice earlier in this thread.

    There's always options and there's always an ethical response.

    For one example, an anonymous letter to the company the fraud was committed against detailing the mechanics of it and supplying any relevant information may well be all they need to do to patiently bide their time and catch this dishonest and criminal individual red-handed in the next instance.


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    #18
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    Mango Joe wrote: »
    For one example, an anonymous letter to the company the fraud was committed against detailing the mechanics of it and supplying any relevant information may well be all they need to do to patiently bide their time and catch this dishonest and criminal individual red-handed in the next instance.

    I haven't fully thought through your idea, so I'm not sure if there are some gotchas, but I think if you can truly do this anonymously it's probably not a bad idea. Even if they ignore the letter, at least you can feel "I did something" and not carry guilt.


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    #19
    kathleen37
    Registered Users Posts: 810 ✭✭✭kathleen37


    ContainsBarley wrote: »
    The owner willingly told staff to add items to the bill that were not received to drive there bill amount up. It was 100% fraud and I was told that its just what happens there. Staff went ahead with it out of fear because there would be blow back from the owner if it didnt happen.

    I wonder what the implications on the staff that carried out this fraud would be?

    Honestly, I would get yourself proper legal advice.


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    #20
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,593 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    kathleen37 wrote: »
    I wonder what the implications on the staff that carried out this fraud would be?

    Honestly, I would get yourself proper legal advice.

    Reminds me of a situation at a former employer.

    We had a bunch of sales reps who were on a decent basic salary and large commission. The problem with the commission was that it was so big that we needed customers to stay with us for at least 12 months for us to make a profit on them. Of course the sales guys were heavily influenced by the commission that they could earn per sale and the company was more focused about building large customer numbers. So many sales reps did anything to get the sale and therefore get the commission.

    Now many of them clearly mis-sold the product and the guys in customer service were having to deal with large number of complaints about they were told the service could do this, that and the other and many of them wanted to cancel way before the 12 months were up. The retentions guys were told not to under any circumstance cancel their account unless they paid up. The customers would cancel their direct debits and then we'd be snookered.

    Anyway, a new executive came in and decided that these people had entered a contract and needed to pay. So myself and others were asked to reactivate a load of direct debits saying the customer had consented to them. Essentially we were asked to do it in our own name in the billing system, because the person issuing instructions didn't want to use his account to do it. I plain refused and said it's not something I was going to get involved in and threatened to shop hi to the fraud office. Lets just say that my job security declined rapidly after that and I was often used as scapegoat for any problems afterwards.

    The point I'm trying to make, is whistleblowing on this kind of stuff will not do your job prospects any good. As this person is the owner, you have to realise that shopping him, however much it is the right thing to do, will mean that you will lose your job and you also want to bear in mind how well connected this person is in the industry. The person I spoke about was very well connected and basically made sure that any reference request went to him and slagged me off. Luckily I caught up with a former director on LinkedIn after I left who agreed to be a reference for me, but I still lost out on a few jobs who wanted a letter directly on company letter headed paper for my 3 years there.

    The long and short, you should shop him after taking legal advice if you are absolutely sure you don't need the job and you don't think there is any chance you will need a reference from him and he's not well connected in the industry to harm your future job prospects. If those apply you should think twice.


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    #21
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    ^^
    There are ways to cause trouble without getting yourself into the mire.

    For example, register a throwaway email account and send an email to the account manager at the big client (I would CC the CFO & CEO too). Include enough detail so that they know you're legit (invoice numbers, names and dates). Tell them what kind of fraud was committed and what to look for.

    Then leave it to them. At the very least they will cut ties with OP's former employer. But if they're a big enough company they'll probably go digging into the invoices, do an investigation and make a complaint to the Gardai if the fraud amounts are big enough.

    It's tempting to try and take the lead on reporting the criminal activity, but ultimately for most businesses if you can damage their reputation with their big clients, they're snookered.

    The Gardai aren't going to bother trying to get the various court orders to trace the IP address that sent the original email. Even then the OP can't get in legal trouble. You can always use an anonymous VPN and you're in the clear anyway.


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