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Strange comment on prison record

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  • 21-04-2020 12:02am
    #1
    srmf5
    Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭


    Just have a query about a relative John Fleming in the prison registers. He was committed for threatening language on 2nd September 1898 for 1 month with expiration of sentence on 1 October but had bail. In the further remarks, it just has 'Edward III'. Anyone know what this means in relation to prison registers.

    The same man was in prison on 23rd November 1899 for obatining money by false pretences. However, he was acquitted but the expiration of sentence was 13th March 1900. Was he already in prison for nearly 4 months before being acquitted?


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    #2
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,622 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    /Mod split thread

    That Edward III comment is fascinating. Why would a medieval king be relevant?

    It's not clear but he could have been remanded in custody to await the trial which was postponed.

    I actually think a book on crime and punishment using examples from these records would be really helpful. Will someone write that please?

    Genealogy Forum Mod



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    #3
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,800 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    I've seen English laws with the monarch name and a year/number used to refer to them but the most recent Edward at that stage was still 350 years ago; and this isn't England.


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    #4
    Hermy
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,313 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    Was there a prison or institution of that name in existence at the time?

    Genealogy Forum Mod



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    #5
    SophieLockhart
    Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭SophieLockhart


    There are several references to 'the statute of Edward III' in the newspaper archives. It was one of the oldest acts on the statute book and seemed to be used in relation to breaches of the peace and also cases of evicted tenants.


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    #6
    srmf5
    Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭srmf5


    SophieLockhart wrote: »
    There are several references to 'the statute of Edward III' in the newspaper archives. It was one of the oldest acts on the statute book and seemed to be used in relation to breaches of the peace and also cases of evicted tenants.

    Ah thank you very much! That makes sense. John, his mother (my 3x great grandmother), his wife and brother were evicted from their home in 1898. I found reference to it in the Dublin Daily Express that I've attached with the relevant info on the left hand side of the page under Roscommon Quarter Sessions.

    It was also mentioned here in the Catholic Courier (New York newspaper) on the left hand side under Roscommon: http://lib.catholiccourier.com/1897-december-1900-september-catholic-journal/catholic-journal-1897-december-1900-september%20-%200509.pdf

    Another article here in the New Zealand Tablet under Roscommon and Evictions on the O'Connor Estate: https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/periodicals/NZT18980902.2.13


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    #7
    srmf5
    Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭srmf5


    While on the topic of John Fleming. He's one example of a case where I can find a church marriage for him but no civil marriage. He married in the parish of Ballinlough to Margaret Agnes Quigley on 8 May 1892. Based on the 1901 and 1911 census, Margaret was from Co. Laois but the marriage seems to have taken place in Co. Roscommon.

    I also don't know where John is in 1901 and 1911. Margaret records herself as married which would suggest that he's still alive. In 1911, Margaret records that there were 4 children born and 4 still living but there are only 3 children living with her in 1901 and 1911. I can find a record of birth for 2 of the children but not the third Emily. The eldest Michael John born in 1893 isn't with his mother in 1901 or 1911. He was born and baptised in Co. Laois. He was visiting Quigley relatives in Erril, Co. Laois in 1901 (only 7). I wonder if John might have gone abroad working and brought Michael John with him by the time of 1911. According to a book about the area, there were a lot of spalpeens who went to England and Scotland for seasonal work so maybe that might explain where he could have been but wouldn't have thought it necessary when they had a shop. I know that a relative from another line was going over and back to America but he was a Fenian with his family based in America rather than Ireland.

    Edit: It looks like John's son Michael John Fleming was living in Errill. He was brought to the Petty Session's Court on 2 April 1910 while living in Errill for having an unlicenced dog. No sign of him in Errill in 1911 but no sign anywhere else in the country either. It looks like Errill became his home sometime between 1901 and 1910 anyway.


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