Payment Options for Sex Work?

novemberbass

Hey, my friend is a sex worker and is looking for a reliable way to take payment from clients for things like online services over video etc and also taking deposits and in some cases full payment for in person work and the likes.

They have used PayPal in the past but it's risky as PayPal has policies against sex work so they are looking for for something where they don't risk their account being shut down and earnings withheld.

Somewhere clients can simply pay by credit/debit card is probably easiest. They are quite established so I don't think there'd be many trust issues if they had a payment option on their own website with a discreet description of what the payment was for on any card statemetns, but a payment gateway link hosted on another site could also work.

They are considering giving Stripe a go, but have heard from other SW's who have had their stripe account closed, although any funds in the account were transferred. On that actually, does anyone know if the likes of PayPal, Stripe or other payment institutions have any right to withhold funds, or would the user always be entitled to receive whatever funds may be in their account, even if they were to get their account closed?

Cheers for any help!

Padre_Pio

Revolut or a similar service?

Gloomtastic!

Google Third Party Payment Processor(s) and see if any of the options meet your friend's needs. Another option would be crypto-currency but that may be way too complicated for all concerned.

novemberbass

Cheers for the replies. Revolut would be good, unfortunately there's a safety concern there as the client would see my friends name. From what I recall of setting up my own Revolut, they require ID and use your real name on the account.

Unless there was another business option with Revolut they could just set up on their work phone

Crypto would be too complicated, I'd consider myself pretty clued in with tech compared to most people and even I'd be unfamiliar with how to pay with crypto. It would also need to be something people can just quickly pay when they are in the mood :pac:

Rulmeq

novemberbass wrote: »

Cheers for the replies. Revolut would be good, unfortunately there's a safety concern there as the client would see my friends name. From what I recall of setting up my own Revolut, they require ID and use your real name on the account.

They will have the same issue with all payment processors.
However they can register a business name with the CRO (The clients will probably appreciate it, if it's not something obvious anyway) and set up an account in that name.

novemberbass wrote: »

Unless there was another business option with Revolut they could just set up on their work phone

Crypto would be too complicated, I'd consider myself pretty clued in with tech compared to most people and even I'd be unfamiliar with how to pay with crypto. It would also need to be something people can just quickly pay when they are in the mood :pac:

I agree, crypto would massively reduce the number of punters who would be willing/able to pay.

novemberbass

I mentioned setting up a non obvious business name with CRO and then using that to open a business Revolut account with, but they are worried that could be classed as money laundering? I can't really see how myself?

If they were to set up some generic "consultancy" or similar business name, and use that as the Revolut business name, where could money laundering be seen as an issue?

Rulmeq

novemberbass wrote: »

I mentioned setting up a non obvious business name with CRO and then using that to open a business Revolut account with, but they are worried that could be classed as money laundering? I can't really see how myself?

If they were to set up some generic "consultancy" or similar business name, and use that as the Revolut business name, where could money laundering be seen as an issue?

So long as they know the customer (KYC rules), it doesn't matter what their trading name is (DBA name). People throw AML around a bit like GDPR when they don't want to deal with stuff.
Doing anything other than being a sole trader will cost a lot of money relatively speaking (and will raise far more questions, and good luck getting an accountant to work with you, becuase they will all have morality clauses or some such BS)

Edit: Actually I'm pretty sure that all merchant processors will refuse the business as well (especially if they are US based)

novemberbass

Cheers again! I'm not too familiar with the acronyms above other than GDPR so had to do a bit of googling and found out KYC = Know Your Customer and AML = Anti Money Laundering, then DBA = Doing Business As, I guess the same as trading as name.

Yep they are definitely keeping things as sole trader for now. Especially in Ireland where you're not allowed work with anyone else or it's considered a brothel and against the law, which has it's own issues for worker safety etc but that's for another discussion.

So you reckon if they set up a business name, let's call it "121 Consultants", used it to set up Revolut or another payment gateway, and gave this option for clients to deposit/pay for both online and in person services, they would be free from any type of risk of prosecution as long as they were accounting for the earnings and couldn't be shown to be flaunting any laws surrounding SW in Ireland? They have access to a SW friendly accountant too I believe.

So if it's operated as a legit business in terms of accounting, registration of business name etc, is it true the only risk lies with the payment gateway sussing out what the business is (unlikely?!) and then deciding to shut down the account? If this were to happen would they be entitled to any earnings that may be currently in that account, or could these be withheld indefinitely by the payment processor? Although surely it's not theirs to keep, so funds would either go back to the client (which isn't cool if the service has already been provided), or just go to my friends associated account if warning of closure was given say?

My friend is based in Ireland so anything that would allow easy acceptance of payment online, and for that to then be easily spendable either from the account or withdrawn (like revolut) or just withdrawn to bank account like (like Stripe?) would be ideal.

Interesting you say all merchant processors would refuse the business, especially if they are US based.. I wonder how sex workers in the US manage it, or anything related like porn websites etc? There's a lot of independent porn star/sex worker websites that appear to accept payment for access to content for example and given the size of the industry, there must be some SW friendly options out there, and then maybe European options, maybe based in Netherlands or somewhere a little more progressive?

sasta le

Cash??

patnor1011

Check couple websites which do cam service and find out what processors they are using.

sasta le

What does she do sex work wise?

novemberbass

@sasta le, this is regarding being able to take payments remotely. Also, I never mentioned my friends gender and what they do as mentioned; online services and in person work.


@patnor1011, thanks for the suggestion. There are some sites where it's possible to create an account and offer services through, one I'm aware of takes 20% which considering they are hosting the content and promoting, is pretty reasonable, but for in person deposits etc non related to the website, that's about 10x what a regular payment processor would charge. Maybe these companies and sites have direct links to Visa/Mastercard, I'm not sure if there's an intermediary like Stripe between them but would be worth looking into!

Gloomtastic!

sasta le wrote: »

What does she do sex work wise?

Not relevant to the thread. Please don’t post here again.

The Gloomster!

If you were to set up a business account anywhere in Ireland you’d need to be registered with the CRO first.

ironclaw

Speaking from the eCommerce side, the company name is irrelevant, you are likely to get caught. The reason is that payment data is shared and monitored (Look up Stripe Radar) which is used to protect merchants from fraud and also to protect companies from illegal use. When you set up an account, for example, Stripe, you'll need to provide all your personal info along with documents that prove who you are. There is zero anonymity as this is required under money laundering / know your customer acts.

Your clients will likely hit a profile that will cause your account to be checked, either manually or automated. They'll likely freeze your account, close it and if serious enough, report it. They have an obligation to do so under most countries money laws.

Possible options are:

- Find a legit processor who will permit these types of transactions. I'd start my search with CBD processors as this is another industry that finds it very hard to get payments online. Bare in mind though, not all are created equal so be careful where they are based, who owns them and how good the credit terms are. Your money can disappear quickly and overnight.

- Work with a payment processor that accepts traditional cards but pays you in crypto. A roundabout way to get paid but it's possible.

- Form a company in a country that has laws specifically designed for this form of work (Netherlands springs to mind) and be based there for the purposes of payments. This will be complicated for a lot of reasons, including tax.

- Work with a company that provides these services and use them a middleman to accept payments. This is your easiest option as you have zero hassle or worry, the downside being their transaction cut.

sasta le

There is loads of irish girls doing porn now online think Onlyfans.com is one of the main sites
Maybe find out how people pay and how the girls get paid

patnor1011

Find out sites which facilitate payments to "freelancers".
One of the most popular was payoneer. Here is 10 other which are similar.
https://www.topsiteslike.com/payoneer.com/

novemberbass

Cheers for the help again everyone!

patnor, the suggestion of payoneer lead me to find this page which has some really good info and some very possible solutions:

https://sexworkerhelpfuls.com/f/sex-work-approved-payment-options


Sasta, they have an onlyfans account, but this is only a small element of what they do and only fans take 20%, which considering they host and manage content/payments etc, it's fair, but regular payment processors only take maybe 3% max, which would be a lot more attractive for taking deposits and other work not on onlyfans.

Ironclaw, very helpful thanks! So seems the risk is the account getting closed and losing some money, I was thinking they could possibly do it on revolut and at least then they have a card to withdraw it to cash immediately with. Just as long as they don't let it build up too much so if their account was to be shut, it'd only be a small amount in jeopardy?!


The one concern they still have though, is money laundering. It would be unfortunate to lose a few € getting an account shut down, but the possibility of getting sanctioned for a money laundering offence is much worse for them. From Rulmeq's post above, it seems to be not something they need to worry about, but is there a chance it could be an issue? What steps could they take to avoid this?

Would they be ok to register with the CRO as a "consultant" business and have a generic enough name? I mean it's not even untrue a a lot of the job involves dealing with emotional needs of clients too.

ironclaw

novemberbass wrote: »

I was thinking they could possibly do it on revolut and at least then they have a card to withdraw it to cash immediately with. Just as long as they don't let it build up too much so if their account was to be shut, it'd only be a small amount in jeopardy?!

You could but Revolut could take you to task for using their service against their Terms and Conditions. Ditto if things got legal. It's far too risky to use a payment provider that doesn't specifically permit this type of activity. It's not a matter of if you will be caught, it's when.

Would they be ok to register with the CRO as a "consultant" business and have a generic enough name? I mean it's not even untrue a a lot of the job involves dealing with emotional needs of clients too.

Doesn't matter what you register it as. An "independent pharmaceutical consultant" could be a drug dealer which doesn't make their business activity legal.

You can register a company for €100. What matters is what the company does. Investigations are not stopped by the name of a company, there are plenty of other data points that will be considered and all of this is automated in terms of payment providers. Likewise, Revenue will be seeking your accounts and I can assure you, they pick up on everything and have considerable powers.

MrMusician18

I love how these threads are always posting on behalf of a friend.. you know if your friend if capable of setting up a payments system surely s/he is capable of opening their open thread.

To my knowledge the purchase of sex is illegal in Ireland, therefore no right minded punter is going to want to make a payment that can be traced back to them.

Your options are therefore cash or crypto.

Andrew00

Sex work hahahahahaa

Gloomtastic!

Andrew00 wrote: »

Sex work hahahahahaa

In your perfect world maybe. Please don't post here again.

The Gloomster!

Gloomtastic!

MrMusician18 wrote: »

I love how these threads are always posting on behalf of a friend.. you know if your friend if capable of setting up a payments system surely s/he is capable of opening their open thread.

To my knowledge the purchase of sex is illegal in Ireland, therefore no right minded punter is going to want to make a payment that can be traced back to them.

Your options are therefore cash or crypto.

Porn sites have survived for a few decades now without either. :rolleyes:

bfa1509

Mod Snip

Gloomtastic!

Ok. Next poster to say something unhelpful gets an infraction. You have been warned.

The Gloomster!

MrMusician18

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Porn sites have survived for a few decades now without either. :rolleyes:

Porn (well most of it) isn't illegal.

You don't see anyone (with a brain at least) buying drugs with their Visa

novemberbass

thanks again for all the replies, the helpful ones at least :pac:

From what I know myself, the selling of sex isn't illegal in Ireland. I think there's a few caveats with that, where you need to work alone etc.

Yep, I think the purchasing of sexual services is illegal, so it follows the very flawed Nordic model, but that's for another discussion.

Buying porn, going to a strip club, etc is all legal, but the actual hiring of a sex worker for sex is illegal. How the law looks on "companionship" services, I'm not sure, but taking payment, whether for content or a deposit for a reservation is not breaking any laws for the service provider, so I don't think there should be too much to worry about from a legal perspective, unless there's some money laundering issue, but that doesn't seem to be the case either?

If they get a good accountant and make sure every payment is accounted for, use a payment gateway that doesn't prohibit these services, it doesn't seem to be like they are putting themselves in a vulnerable position legally?

The purchaser on the other hand, well that's on them I guess until such a time where Ireland adapts something like the New Zealand model for sex work.

ironclaw

For what it's worth, I'd invest in a chat with a solicitor who specialises in the area. Payments aside, you still need to ensure what you are doing and how you are doing it is within the confines of the law. You are not the first or last to ask the question so there is definitely a legal answer.

Just because your payment processor approves, doesn't mean the DoJ will. Above all, don't proceed until you get a real legal opinion, not hearsay or from forums.

Cianos

If the friend is set up as a consultant or other type of company with the CRO can't this information be accessed by anyone who wants to pay the small fee for company information? They'd either be listed as a sole trader, or listed as a director of the company. This could mean a security risk as they lose their anonymity and in that particular line of work that could be quite dangerous.

As for taking payments, I've heard of legitimate businesses getting flagged by Stripe anti-fraud because their business category is deemed high risk, and this could be something simple like car valeting. If your friend chooses to represent themselves as a 'consultant' they'd need to show some kind of presence that supports that (ie a website, social media perhaps). But then, they're going deeper into the 'fraud' rabbit hole and people are obviously trained to suss out that stuff. Look at it from the anti-fraud, anti-criminal perspective - I assume your friend is operating as a free-willed adult making their own choices, but how is anyone else to know what this 'consultancy' business represents? Especially for those whose job it is to err on the side of caution.

If your friend does online work, then perhaps in-person meetings could be paid for through the same channel in the form of gifts or what have you. Maybe a little clumsy, but probably safer all round, and probably gives more peace of mind for your friend to have a single point of payment.

albernazj93

Set a webpage for online payments and integrates it with Stripe (payment system). They don't care what you are selling aslong as you pay their fee (which is only a few cents per payment). You can even have your customer's list and give them "cupons", discounts, etc. Even recurrent payments for those loyal customers.

Imagine, so cool sex cupom

Ok. Next poster to say something unhelpful gets an infraction. You have been warned.

Sorry admin, could not miss the joke. I gave a helful information tho.

onedmc

If the "sex work" is illegal in this country then surley we should not be commenting at all as we are aiding the crime. Which is one thing

But sound like money laundering or even worse tax evasion so I dont think this should be on boards at all. Is there no policy on boards regarding this.

FFVII

onedmc wrote: »

If the "sex work" is illegal in this country then surley we should not be commenting at all as we are aiding the crime. Which is one thing

But sound like money laundering or even worse tax evasion so I dont think this should be on boards at all. Is there no policy on boards regarding this.

Tax evading is perfectly legal.

novemberbass

Cheers again everyone!

Ironclaw, definitely a good idea, they may be able to get advice through SWAI, or at least a recommendation of a solicitor.

cianos, I believe you can get that info for a company, but I don't think you can for a sole trader? I think the most you could get is an address from the CRO search for sole trader?

The problem with the likes of only fans is they don't really support offline sex work, so that's why they were looking for a payment solution for that. They are currently using paysafe card for some transactions, which is ok for now, the client buys a "top up" and sends the code to my friend, they then add that amount to their card.


albernazj93, Stripe would have been ideal, but the consensus here is that the account will get flagged and probably shut down and the link I provided above shows it's not sex worker friendly either.

onedmc, this has been discussed already. It's legal. My friend is looking for a legitimate way to accept payments. The problem is not with the law of the country, the problem is with payment gateways not wanting to associate themselves with this type of industry. The only reason they want to provide a generic name is so clients don't have to worry about what shows up on their card statement. The issue here is taboo, not law.

jaxxx

onedmc wrote: »

If the "sex work" is illegal in this country then surley we should not be commenting at all as we are aiding the crime. Which is one thing

But sound like money laundering or even worse tax evasion so I dont think this should be on boards at all. Is there no policy on boards regarding this.

Selling sex is not illegal, it's the buying of sex that is illegal.

sabat

FFVII wrote: »

Tax evading is perfectly legal.

Top notch legal advice there.

Hibernicis

FFVII wrote: »

Tax evading is perfectly legal.

This is wrong. A very good example of why you should treat absolute online certainty with a healthy dose of scepticism........

From revenue.ie Tax Evasion is illegal
.

Gloomtastic!

I was always brought up to believe that Tax Evasion is illegal, Tax Avoidance is not. Avoidance usually involves very expensive lawyers/advisors. :rolleyes:

Rulmeq

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

I was always brought up to believe that Tax Evasion is illegal, Tax Avoidance is not. Avoidance usually involves very expensive lawyers/advisors. :rolleyes:

Avoidance doesn't even require that, avoidance can be as simple as maxing out your contributions to your own pension. I'd even argue that something as simple as claiming all your credits (medical expenses etc.,) is a simple form of avoidance (although in that case, it's probably more like not paying what you didn't have to)

bacon?

Payoneer, Skrill, Leopay, Transferwise.