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Property Law question - rights to laneway

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  • 13-04-2020 5:58pm
    #1
    patsman07
    Registered Users Posts: 282 ✭✭


    I am in the process of doing up a dilapidated cottage on our farm. Access to it is via a laneway, which had been completely overgrown for about twenty years or more. The laneway had been the driveway to this cottage which was my grandfather's childhood home.


    To access the cottage I cleared the laneway and had it paved with stone chippings. A neighbour, on the opposite side of the lane, has cleared away a ditch and opened a gateway onto the lane. He claims he has a right to use it. His house was built about ten years ago and there has never been a gate/access of any kind onto the lane from his property before.


    When I looked at the property maps I was shocked to find that his property extends out into the middle of the lane. I, and generations of my family before me, fully believed that this lane was our property. I own the property on my side of the lane to the public road, whereas the land on the other side is divided among several owners. With the exception of the neighbour who opened the gateway, a substantial stone wall separates the laneway from these other properties, although the map shows the boundary in the middle of the lane.



    Is there a possibility that the map is wrong?


    I was going to erect a fence to prevent my neighbour from using the lane but things seem to be less clear cut. Appreciative of any advice.


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    #2
    Lenar3556
    Registered Users Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭Lenar3556


    I would suggest having a local solicitor review the situation. The various ownerships need to be clarified and if there is an infringement that needs to be appropriately managed.
    Removing a ditch / establishing an entrance to lands would generally require planning permission.


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    #3
    brian_t
    Registered Users Posts: 6,674 ✭✭✭brian_t


    Lenar3556 wrote: »
    Removing a ditch / establishing an entrance to lands would generally require planning permission.
    Does that apply to a non public road which the OP seems to have.


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    #4
    Lenar3556
    Registered Users Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭Lenar3556


    brian_t wrote: »
    Does that apply to a non public road which the OP seems to have.

    you could certainly argue it is exempt, on the basis that it is not a public road, but there are caveats to what is an exempted development under the act and you would need appraise the full circumstances. The current use of the land, any planning permission in existence, and the proposed use of this entrance would be considerations as to whether it is in fact exempted.

    Seems to be wider issues in this particular instance also though.


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    #5
    Hunchback
    Registered Users Posts: 1,629 ✭✭✭Hunchback


    patsman07 wrote: »
    I am in the process of doing up a dilapidated cottage on our farm. Access to it is via a laneway, which had been completely overgrown for about twenty years or more. The laneway had been the driveway to this cottage which was my grandfather's childhood home.


    To access the cottage I cleared the laneway and had it paved with stone chippings. A neighbour, on the opposite side of the lane, has cleared away a ditch and opened a gateway onto the lane. He claims he has a right to use it. His house was built about ten years ago and there has never been a gate/access of any kind onto the lane from his property before.


    When I looked at the property maps I was shocked to find that his property extends out into the middle of the lane. I, and generations of my family before me, fully believed that this lane was our property. I own the property on my side of the lane to the public road, whereas the land on the other side is divided among several owners. With the exception of the neighbour who opened the gateway, a substantial stone wall separates the laneway from these other properties, although the map shows the boundary in the middle of the lane.



    Is there a possibility that the map is wrong?


    I was going to erect a fence to prevent my neighbour from using the lane but things seem to be less clear cut. Appreciative of any advice.

    From time to time there are errors on the maps on Land Direct. Some years ago, they digitised all the maps and occasionally mapping errors were made when this process of digitisation was carried out. Not to give you false hope though - for legal advice you should consult with a local solicitor with property expertise.


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    #6
    nuac
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,769 Mod ✭✭✭✭nuac


    MOD
    As Lenar advises you should consult your own solicitor. Leaving open for general discussion subject to forum rules


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    #7
    patsman07
    Registered Users Posts: 282 ✭✭patsman07


    Hunchback wrote: »
    From time to time there are errors on the maps on Land Direct. Some years ago, they digitised all the maps and occasionally mapping errors were made when this process of digitisation was carried out. Not to give you false hope though - for legal advice you should consult with a local solicitor with property expertise.


    How would one find out if the map is wrong? Examine where the stated boundary is on the deeds? Forgive me if these questions are very basic, I don't have much experience in these matters.


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    #8
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    patsman07 wrote: »
    How would one find out if the map is wrong? Examine where the stated boundary is on the deeds? Forgive me if these questions are very basic, I don't have much experience in these matters.

    This is really quite complex.

    It doesn’t all hinge on whether the map is wrong. There is a lot more to it than that.

    Similarly, determining that it is wrong, if it is, will be complicated. You can’t just find out.

    You need legal advice here.

    It might be helpful for when you go to meet solicitors to have as much research as possible done. Research means getting copies of all the old maps you can and collecting any information you can from older people about the history of the lane. You need to put it altogether into a file.


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    #9
    longgonesilver
    Registered Users Posts: 734 ✭✭✭longgonesilver


    Go onto the Ordnance Survey website and look at the laneway and the houses beside it and the access to these houses on each version of the older maps.

    The possibility that the land under the road is owned by the adjoining landowners suggests the land was once and could still be a public road. Check if it extends beyond your cottage and on to somewhere the public once had access to.

    There are lots of these lanes around the country that were once public roads but as their function is now irrelevant have been abandoned, access to water to fill buckets or water horses, access to bogs for turf,shortcuts for people on foot where horses had to go the long way round, access to fields.

    As stated above,like a road just because a laneway exists, what ever it's legal status, it doesn't mean that a person has the right to make a new opening onto it. Check your deeds to see if they give any details of rights of way.

    Modern online maps are not always right. I have seen private, newly constructed farm roadways, where no road existed before marked as public rights of way.


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    #10
    ittakestwo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    Your neighbour is claiming they have a right to use the laneway, ie they have a right of way over the laneway. If you are on talking terms ask your neighbour how they are claiming the ROW. is it reserved, prescribed or an implied ROW. For example they may have a deed on their property title to use this laneway.

    It is also very common for property boundaries to run to the middle of the road that are not taken in charge by the council.


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    #11
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,335 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    ittakestwo wrote: »
    . . . . It is also very common for property boundaries to run to the middle of the road that are not taken in charge by the council.
    It is common for property boundaries to run to the middle of the road whether or not the road is in charge of the council.


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    #12
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    It is common for property boundaries to run to the middle of the road whether or not the road is in charge of the council.

    +1, taken in charge and ownership are not the same, but when taken in charge the LA are effectively taking on the responsibility for any ad medium filum viae of the road.


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    #13
    chooseusername
    Registered Users Posts: 3,662 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Regardless of the planning permission issue,
    he should not have opened new access onto the lane
    without your permission.
    You could download his folio from landdirect.ie for 5 euro
    or the folio with map for 40 euro.
    Not saying it'll prove anything one way or t'other ,but could be worth a try.
    Also as his house is only 10 years old ,
    the planning application documents will be still online ,
    they might be useful.
    Is it worth trying to sort it over a cup of tea,in the interest of good neighbourliness?


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    #14
    ittakestwo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    It is common for property boundaries to run to the middle of the road whether or not the road is in charge of the council.

    Ok, I know in the Dublin council's when roads are taken in charge the council becomes the defacto owner.

    I presume if you own a road that is taken in hand by a council even in rural areas your ownership is ilusionary in that you cant prevent the public from using it and can't use your land in way that is not consistent with a road?


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    #15
    ittakestwo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    chooseusername wrote: »
    Regardless of the planning permission issue,
    he should not have opened new access onto the lane
    without your permission.
    You could download his folio from landdirect.ie for 5 euro
    or the folio with map for 40 euro.
    Not saying it'll prove anything one way or t'other ,but could be worth a try.
    Also as his house is only 10 years old ,
    the planning application documents will be still online ,
    they might be useful.
    Is it worth trying to sort it over a cup of tea,in the interest of good neighbourliness?

    From what the OP is saying, where the neighbour opened the access is fully within thier property according to the deeds so nobody can really stop the neighbour making an opening in a wall fully within their own property.

    However it seems the neighbours property is only contiguous with the road for part of the roads length so the the neighbour will still need to show they have a ROW over the rest of the road on the OP's land. If they have no deed on their title regarding an ROW and the OP can show they only recently put an access on to the road I dont know how they can claim to have a ROW to use all the road.


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    #16
    chooseusername
    Registered Users Posts: 3,662 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    ittakestwo wrote: »
    From what the OP is saying, where the neighbour opened the access is fully within thier property according to the deeds so nobody can really stop the neighbour making an opening in a wall fully within their own property.

    However it seems the neighbours property is only contiguous with the road for part of the roads length so the the neighbour will still need to show they have a ROW over the rest of the road on the OP's land. If they have no deed on their title regarding an ROW and the OP can show they only recently put an access on to the road I dont know how they can claim to have a ROW to use all the road.
    I think he would need to show he has right of way over the lane
    before making an opening for the purpose of accessing the lane.
    Even then he would need to consult the other party.


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    #17
    ittakestwo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    chooseusername wrote: »
    I think he would need to show he has right of way over the lane
    before making an opening for the purpose of accessing the lane.
    Even then he would need to consult the other party.

    According to the deeds where the neighbour made an opening is fully within his property so would he need to consult anyone regarding making an opening. The OP can only stop a tresspass on thier own property. But a neighbour altering a wall fully within his own property is not a tresspass. He would only be trespassing if he walked out the new access onto land then owned by the OP.


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    #18
    longgonesilver
    Registered Users Posts: 734 ✭✭✭longgonesilver


    You need permission to knock something down.

    You can't make a new opening onto a public road without permission.


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    #19
    Youredeadright
    Registered Users Posts: 42 ✭Youredeadright


    ittakestwo wrote: »
    From what the OP is saying, where the neighbour opened the access is fully within thier property according to the deeds so nobody can really stop the neighbour making an opening in a wall fully within their own property.

    However it seems the neighbours property is only contiguous with the road for part of the roads length so the the neighbour will still need to show they have a ROW over the rest of the road on the OP's land. If they have no deed on their title regarding an ROW and the OP can show they only recently put an access on to the road I dont know how they can claim to have a ROW to use all the road.

    This is the most accurate advice on the matter. As an example, say the poster owns one side of a 300m private road, and the other side is split between 3 owners who have 100m each. If the poster's neighbour (lets call him neighbour A and the other two are B and C) owns the first 100m where you turn off the public road then he has can use the first 100m of road freely as half it is on his land. However if neighbour A is at the back of the lane, i.e. has the final 100m on his side, he has to travel over either the poster's land or neighbour B and C's land to get to a public place so will need to have evidence of a private right of way.


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