VW Defeat Devices

54and56

Hi all,

2013 VW Touareg owner here.

For anyone interested in the whole VW Defeat Device scandal there was an important high court ruling in the UK today, see https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/apr/06/volkswagen-installed-thousands-unlawful-defeat-devices-high-court-dieselgate

Excellent podcast on the affair, how it was uncovered and how the US authorities absolutely nailed VW - https://pca.st/08h6hsjg

Anyone know if there are any cases taken by Irish VW owners against VW relating to this?

Toyotafanboi

We hope that Volkswagen accepts the court’s decision and we urge them to now do the right thing and put their customers first by entering into settlement negotiations so that our clients are not forced to drag VW through the courts and be faced with further years of litigation to determine their losses

So the court has concluded that the defeat device was in fact a defeat device and that that is very disappointing.

The writing of that last paragraph reads like the court cannot enforce VW to do anything, "we are hoping VW will do the right thing and enter into talks..."

What will happen if VW dont engage?

They hope VW dont drag this out so their clients dont have to wait years further to "determine their loses".

What loses?

All seems like a bit of a red herring as to the fact that nothing is actually really moving forward.

I really dont know much about courts and legalities and that side of things, but it's 5 years now since the scandal broke, surely if it was possible to for successful litigation resulting in payouts for affected owners in the UK or ROI, surely someone would have done it by now?

Seth Brundle

54and56 wrote: »

Anyone know if there are any cases taken by Irish VW owners against VW relating to this?

Firstly as we don't have formal class action lawsuits here, it would have to be a number of individuals making a claim at the same time, together.
Anyhow, on what grounds would a case be taken?

54and56

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Firstly as we don't have formal class action lawsuits here, it would have to be a number of individuals making a claim at the same time, together.
Anyhow, on what grounds would a case be taken?

I'm curious about that myself but over 91,000 VW Customers in the UK have taken a class action seeking compensation.

I guess the claim must broadly be related to the fact that VW advertised the cars as being "clean diesel" which were compliant with emissions testing when they weren't and either that mis-selling and/or reductions in used values due to the scandal are how customers can demonstrate losses for which they are seeking compensation. Customers simply weren't getting the Clean Diesel car's they were paying for.



In the US the settlement they reached included a requirement for them to buy back all the cars they had sold with defeat devices fitted. In total the US debacle cost them $21,000,000,000 between fines, penalties and customer compensation.

If they end up compensating their UK customers it won't be long before customers in EU countries will want equal treatment.

bazz26

US Consumer protection laws are a lot better than here in Europe.

0lddog

FWIW VW lost the case in Germany

( https://www.irishtimes.com/business/manufacturing/vw-offers-direct-payouts-to-sidestep-german-emissions-lawsuit-1.4174316 )

Toyotafanboi

54and56 wrote: »

I guess the claim must broadly be related to the fact that VW advertised the cars as being "clean diesel" which were compliant with emissions testing when they weren't and either that mis-selling and/or reductions in used values due to the scandal are how customers can demonstrate losses for which they are seeking compensation. Customers simply weren't getting the Clean Diesel car's they were paying for.

Afaik "TDI clean diesel" was a US marketing campaign/ slogan, it wasn't used in the UK.

I think the losses due to lower resale value is impossible to prove and I'd say in Ireland (and most likely the UK), the scandal didnt really taint the value of used VW's whatsoever, if anything there was still strong demand for new and used VW's the whole way through the scandal, so proving any losses that way would be very difficult.

0lddog

Wonder would the EPA have a case too ?

Seth Brundle

If you are pursuing a claim then you need to be able to effectively quantify the loss.
How much have you lost because of the design issue?

0lddog

Seth Brundle wrote: »

If you are pursuing a claim then you need to be able to effectively quantify the loss.
How much have you lost because of the design issue?

Revenue will be able to compute the loss of tax ( VRT and annual road ) based on declared Vs actual CO2 ... so would they also have a case ?

Seth Brundle

0lddog wrote: »

Revenue will be able to compute the loss of tax ( VRT and annual road ) based on declared Vs actual CO2 ... so would they also have a case ?

I'm sure Revenue are aware of what's going on and have discussed it amongst themselves but my take on the OP was whether it was possible for a citizen to take on VW. My understanding that you could but you would lose for two reasons:
1. it's too difficult to quantify the loss given that the resale prices aren't affected in a measurable way
2. they can afford better legal representation than you or I!

Toyotafanboi

That and the scandal was over falsifying NOx emissions not co2.

Seth Brundle

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

That and the scandal was over falsifying NOx emissions not co2.

...which IIRC we dont test for or tax on.

Marcusm

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

So the court has concluded that the defeat device was in fact a defeat device and that that is very disappointing.

The writing of that last paragraph reads like the court cannot enforce VW to do anything, "we are hoping VW will do the right thing and enter into talks..."

What will happen if VW dont engage?

They hope VW dont drag this out so their clients dont have to wait years further to "determine their loses".

What loses?

All seems like a bit of a red herring as to the fact that nothing is actually really moving forward.

I really dont know much about courts and legalities and that side of things, but it's 5 years now since the scandal broke, surely if it was possible to for successful litigation resulting in payouts for affected owners in the UK or ROI, surely someone would have done it by now?

It can take a long time to get to court; one press report said VW have paid out 30bn to date (currency is irrelevant £, $ or € but can’t remember which). There will be a payout. Delay on VW’s part means further time to rehabilitate and generate profits/cash flow to fund settlements. It should have been life threatening for them but the delaying tactic has allowed them to survive if not to thrive.

54and56

Seth Brundle wrote: »

If you are pursuing a claim then you need to be able to effectively quantify the loss.
How much have you lost because of the design issue?

I actually don't know but I'll guarantee you the legal firms fronting the 91,000 person class action in the UK have that question well and truly answered otherwise they wouldn't be pursuing it.

I accept you have to demonstrate a loss to claim damages in a civil case but what about consumer protection from mis-selling?

What if you bought X widget because the manufacturer claimed it did Y and under lab conditions it did in fact appear to do Y but only because the manufacturer had surreptitiously installed software to fool the lab tests? Have you not been fraudulently hoodwinked by the manufacturer into buying a product which doesn't do what the manufacturer claims it can do?

If manufacturers can make claims without fear of having to compensate customers if those claims turn out to be completely bogus there would be no consumer protection whatsoever.

CJhaughey

I thought there was some lawyer in Mayo taking VW to court over this?

Toyotafanboi

It looks like the contents of the article are different now from lunchtime today when I first read it.

Marcusm wrote: »

It can take a long time to get to court; one press report said VW have paid out 30bn to date (currency is irrelevant £, $ or € but can’t remember which). There will be a payout. Delay on VW’s part means further time to rehabilitate and generate profits/cash flow to fund settlements. It should have been life threatening for them but the delaying tactic has allowed them to survive if not to thrive.

I seen the 30bn figure quoted earlier but it was said that that included all costs associated with rectifying the 10 million ish cars (or whatever completion rate they had for that) and the costs of buy backs in the US, all that would erode a lot of the 30bn. I think payouts to owners would be a very small percentage of that.

This, to me sums up VW's position and the reality of the situation. Not that I do or dont agree with it but it's been the way so far and it'll be the way forward. As time passes and half a decade already has, car will come off the road, people will lost interest and this will just go away.

Volkswagen remains confident in our case that we are not liable to the claimants as alleged and the claimants did not suffer any loss. We will continue to defend our position robustly. Nothing in this decision today changes this

Marcusm

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

It looks like the contents of the article are different now from lunchtime today when I first read it.



I seen the 30bn figure quoted earlier but it was said that that included all costs associated with rectifying the 10 million ish cars (or whatever completion rate they had for that) and the costs of buy backs in the US, all that would erode a lot of the 30bn. I think payouts to owners would be a very small percentage of that.

This, to me sums up VW's position and the reality of the situation. Not that I do or dont agree with it but it's been the way so far and it'll be the way forward. As time passes and half a decade already has, car will come off the road, people will lost interest and this will just go away.

I would change “go away” to “be settled”. Once there is a prospect if an adverse judgement, there will be a consideration of a financial settlement. Provided that falls within VW’s sweet spot, it will be paid.

In Canada, the cash payment was C$5,100-8,000 per vehicle. In the US, it was US$5,100-9,800 per vehicle. VW has shown the propensity to settle. The U.K. claimants will pursue until they do or the case is kicked out.