Clamped in McDonald's Belgard Road, Dublin

jams100

An interesting one this.

So I went to watch Shamrock Rovers play in Europe last year (Q the cheeky comments) and long story short considering I never went to the Tallaght area before I found it difficult to determine where to park, I passed by a couple of parking spaces that were free but a bit tight to fit into so long story short I parked in an Empty McDonald's carpark, when I say empty there were probably about 60 spaces and 5 were taken so I thought no more of it didn't even occur to me to look for clamping signs. (This was at about 7:20pm in the evening).

Returned back after match to find my car and another persons car who done similar both clamped. To say I was frustrated was an understatement. I reluctantly paid the fine but wasn't going to let this go so I appealed the clamp to RFC they rejected appeal as I expected but I furthered appeal to the clamping appeals officer and got a full refund and a lot of satisfaction I must say
The guy who clamped was sitting around the corner waiting for us to come back clearly the know on match nights people might make this mistake so hopefully this safes someone some bother

Lesson is be careful where you park as that RFC company are snakes and always worth an owl appeal something like 50% of appeals get accepted but it is a pain so I suppose most people just want to pay fine and forget about it.

Does anyone know if clampers get commission? If so how much?

This was the appeal:

Dear Sir/Madam,

Enforcement Number: xxxx
Vehicle Registration: 12D...

I wish to appeal a clamp I received in a McDonald's car park on the Belgard road on the 25th July 2019 on the following grounds.

1. The lack of clear signage at entrance, which contravenes the clamping and signage regulation act 2017. This act states in Part 5 section 22 (b) that "The size and location of the sign or signs required under paragraph (a) shall be such that the information on each such sign is clearly visible to, and readable by a driver of a vehicle who satisfies the eyesight requirements in the Road Traffic (Licensing of Drivers) Regulations 2006 while seated in the vehicle at the entry point to that clamping place or at any entry barrier beyond the entrance to that clamping place." As the attached pictures show, the sign in this case is not clearly visible and even when spotted it cannot be read from a vehicle at the entrance to this car park. This lack of visibility is compounded further when approaching the car park via a left turn as bushes obscure this particular sign, as once again highlighted in the attached images.

2. No signage at the pedestrian exit of McDonald's car park which contravenes the clamping and signage regulation act 2017. This act states in Part 5 section 23 (a) That "Subject to paragraphs (b) and (c), a clamping information sign shall be provided at a clamping place- (iii) in the case of a single-story or surface car park where parking by members of the public is permitted, at each vehicular entrance to the car park and at each signed pedestrian exit point from the car park." As the attached images show the pedestrian exit of this car park contains no clamping information sign, hence, is not in compliance with this act.

Based on the failure to fully comply with the clamping and signage regulation act 2017 as evidenced via the attached images this fine should be null and voided. Please note that failure to fully refund this clamp will result in an appeal to the clamping appeals officer. I hope to hear back on this matter promptly.

Yours faithfully,
Mr x

Just to piss them off a little bit more I attached a copy of the clamping and signage regulation act 2017

mikeecho

Ok... I gave up on reading your long post.

But my understanding is that you parked on private property, and ended up being clamped.

Pay the release fee and if you believe you have been wronged, lodge an appeal.

Otherwise, chalk it up as a lesson learned.

Next time park on the street.

un5byh7sqpd2x0

mikeecho wrote: »

Ok... I gave up on reading your long post.

But my understanding is that you parked on private property, and ended up being clamped.

Pay the release fee and if you believe you have been wronged, lodge an appeal.

Otherwise, chalk it up as a lesson learned.

Next time park on the street.

Read a few more lines

jams100

mikeecho wrote: »

Ok... I gave up on reading your long post.

Yea was a rather long post, was clamped on private property (ridiculously imo) paid fine but ultimately appealed and won. My point being that an appeal is worth it as 50% of appeals get accepted, although its a lengthy process

Guy:Incognito

jams100 wrote: »

Yea was a rather long post, was clamped on private property (ridiculously imo) paid fine but ultimately appealed and won. My point being that an appeal is worth it as 50% of appeals get accepted, although its a lengthy process

Dont see why you think it was ridiculous. You knew you were in McDonalds own car park and weren't using McDonalds. It's not like its a section off another car park up there. Its across the road from any other car park and is walled off. If they didnt enforce parking there the place would be full of non customers all the time.

It's the complete opposite side of the shopping centre to the stadium, its not like you were at the ground and figured it could be connected.

Common courtesy is a fairly simple thing to work out: "am I using this business"? Yes? park in their car park, No? Don't park in their car park.

jams100

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Dont see why you think it was ridiculous. You knew you were in McDonalds own car park and weren't using McDonalds. It's not like its a section off another car park up there. Its across the road from any other car park and is walled off. If they didnt enforce parking there the place would be full of non customers all the time.

It's the complete opposite side of the shopping centre to the stadium, its not like you were at the ground and figured it could be connected.

Common courtesy is a fairly simple thing to work out: "am I using this business"? Yes? park in their car park, No? Don't park in their car park.

In hindsight I should've been more alert. Ive never been to tallght before...in town most clamping stops after 7pm anyway and there was free parking on the road just 10 meters away but the spot was a little tight and that carpark was empty and it was 7:30pm so it wasn't as if I was going to be occupying spaces that were going to be used. My feeling is that Rfc know that people will unintentionally park there on a match night and see it as an easy target. I suppose there are signs in the carpark warning clamping is in operation but these signs are rather small and it would've been dark at that time of the night.

colm_mcm

This isn’t a Tallaght specific thing, most McDonalds that have a car park will open past midnight, so by you parking there for 2 hours and fecking off, you’re inconveniencing them and their customers.
The clampers are there to both make money and stop numpties from parking there when they see the clamp on someone’s car.

sydthebeat

Are they allowed put signage up on lamp standards?

I haven't read the regs, and I am assuming by those pics that the clamping sign is actually on the lamp standard.

I would have thought it would have to have its own standard and not be allowed to be installed on a utility pole.

listermint

sydthebeat wrote: »

Are they allowed put signage up on lamp standards?

I haven't read the regs, and I am assuming by those pics that the clamping sign is actually on the lamp standard.

I would have thought it would have to have its own standard and not be allowed to be installed on a utility pole.

Why would you think this....

markpb

jams100 wrote: »

in town most clamping stops after 7pm

No it doesn't.

mikeecho

mikeecho wrote: »

Ok... I gave up on reading your long post.

Well then why bother replying?

CianRyan

The sign is clearly visable in two of your pictures.
You chanced it, got caught and kicked screamed so much that they didn't bother taking it as far as court.

I really don't understand what the point of this thread is?
"I parked like an idiot and then wormed my way out of the fine that I knowingly deserved."
Why are you proud of this?

CrankyHaus

CianRyan wrote: »

The sign is clearly visable in two of your pictures.
You chanced it, got caught and kicked screamed so much that they didn't bother taking it as far as court.

I really don't understand what the point of this thread is?
"I parked like an idiot and then wormed my way out of the fine that I knowingly deserved."
Why are you proud of this?

The regulations exist for a reason, for years private clampers acted like a law unto themselves and unfair practices were rife. They can do the bare minimum and read up on the basic legal requirements for their business, or have appeals against them upheld. Now RFC know they need better signage and when they put it up there'll be less chance of anyone else parking in McDs without knowing of the parking restrictions there, everyone's a winner.

colm_mcm

I don’t know how anyone can think parking there and leaving is ok.

ThewhiteJesus

jams100 wrote: »

Yea was a rather long post, was clamped on private property (ridiculously imo) paid fine but ultimately appealed and won. My point being that an appeal is worth it as 50% of appeals get accepted, although its a lengthy process

it was private property, doesn't matter what you think.
No point trying to reason with someone who works as a clamper if you know what i mean.

CrankyHaus

I don't know how any clamper can think a failure to comply with the clamping regulations is okay.

jams100

jams100 wrote: »

......

Based on the failure to fully comply with the clamping and signage regulation act 2017 as evidenced via the attached images this fine should be null and voided. Please note that failure to fully refund this clamp will result in an appeal to the clamping appeals officer. I hope to hear back on this matter promptly.

..........

I'd not condone parking in a private car park for hours, escecially when you've not bought anything there. But I've done similar myself where clamping isn't the done thing and the time limit is 2 hrs or so (The Square, Tallaght for example).

So fair play on the successful appeal, rules are rules

Doop

Is the point of this thread to suggest we should be allowed to park on peoples private property unhindered?

You knowingly parked on private property while not using visiting their business and somehow believe you were wronged due to a perception that their clamping signage was insufficient .... the mind boggles

sydthebeat

listermint wrote: »

Why would you think this....

Because there are restrictions on putting other signage on utility poles.

Election posters and planning notices are not allowed on utility poles or signposts.

In other jurisdictions is actually illegal to put signage on utility poles.

That's why I asked the question

CianRyan

sydthebeat wrote: »

Because there are restrictions on putting other signage on utility poles.

Election posters and planning notices are not allowed on utility poles or signposts.

In other jurisdictions is actually illegal to put signage on utility poles.

That's why I asked the question

Are you referring to the privately owned lamp post in the car park?
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say they probably have permission to put a sign there.

CianRyan

CrankyHaus wrote: »

The regulations exist for a reason, for years private clampers acted like a law unto themselves and unfair practices were rife. They can do the bare minimum and read up on the basic legal requirements for their business, or have appeals against them upheld. Now RFC know they need better signage and when they put it up there'll be less chance of anyone else parking in McDs without knowing of the parking restrictions there, everyone's a winner.

The sign was clearly visable and arms were chanced.
He got lucky, that doesn't mean he was right.

It's a private car park and he knew that.

Match day parking is a real problem in Tallaght. Before the stadium there were no barriers in The Square, with 2/3 hours of free parking they only exist to keep match day drivers out of the carpark.

Common sense and courtesy to locals and business owners clearly isn't a priority for the fans.

Miscreant

CianRyan wrote: »

Before the stadium there were no barriers in The Square, with 2/3 hours of free parking they only exist to keep match day drivers out of the carpark.

The barriers at the Square were also put up to stop the "Park and Ride" brigade on the LUAS who would arrive in the morning, park and leave the car there until 5 or 6pm.

In any case, I think the OP knows they were in the wrong but chanced the appeal (twice) and won. Vilifying them now is pointless.

Larbre34

I think you're only trying to convince yourself at this stage OP.

The appeal will fail, its private land, they'll just say tough sh1t, don't do it again

Miscreant

Larbre34 wrote: »

I think you're only trying to convince yourself at this stage OP.

The appeal will fail, its private land, they'll just say tough sh1t, don't do it again

You didn't read the OP fully. He got a refund after his second appeal....

Emmersonn

Deleted User wrote: »

Well then why bother replying?

A$$holes in isolation need amusement and like practicing at being keyboard warriors. :rolleyes:
If an post has'nt got pictures, they loose interest after a few words.:D
Well done jams100.

CrankyHaus

CianRyan wrote: »

The sign was clearly visable and arms were chanced.
He got lucky, that doesn't mean he was right.

It's a private car park and he knew that.

Match day parking is a real problem in Tallaght. Before the stadium there were no barriers in The Square, with 2/3 hours of free parking they only exist to keep match day drivers out of the carpark.

Common sense and courtesy to locals and business owners clearly isn't a priority for the fans.

If you run a business then the least you can do is meet the regulations set out by law for it. I wouldn't have parked there myself. But if the clamper now upgrades the signage to meet the regulations and remove any doubt for people thinking of parking there then the law's working as it should.

Riva10

CianRyan wrote: »

The sign was clearly visable and arms were chanced.
He got lucky, that doesn't mean he was right.

It's a private car park and he knew that.

Match day parking is a real problem in Tallaght. Before the stadium there were no barriers in The Square, with 2/3 hours of free parking they only exist to keep match day drivers out of the carpark.

Common sense and courtesy to locals and business owners clearly isn't a priority for the fans.

Cian .Just thinking of getting one of your type of high horse, Where if any place can I park it safely? Thanks.

CianRyan

Riva10 wrote: »

Cian .Just thinking of getting one of your type of high horse, Where if any place can I park it safely? Thanks.

In a stable, where they're safe.

CianRyan

CrankyHaus wrote: »

If you run a business then the least you can do is meet the regulations set out by law for it. I wouldn't have parked there myself. But if the clamper now upgrades the signage to meet the regulations and remove any doubt for people thinking of parking there then the law's working as it should.

The signage was clear, as evident by the photos in the original post. Second to that, it comes as no surprise to anyone that parking in a private carpark in a busy business centre without visiting that business may get you clamped.

So you think it's fair for this guy to get his money back and for the company enforcing the parking having to spend more money on updating signage because someone's neck was stiff enough to park illegally and then claim they've been done wrong?

The law isn't working, its being worked.

Guy:Incognito

CrankyHaus wrote: »

If you run a business then the least you can do is meet the regulations set out by law for it. I wouldn't have parked there myself. But if the clamper now upgrades the signage to meet the regulations and remove any doubt for people thinking of parking there then the law's working as it should.

They shouldn't need signs or clampers. People should just not take the piss

People know full well it's a McDonald's car park and they shouldn't park in it if they're not in McDonald's

Emmersonn

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

They shouldn't need signs or clampers. People should just not take the piss

People know full well it's a McDonald's car park and they shouldn't park in it if they're not in McDonald's

Then a sign stating "Private Parking" would be helpful if displayed at the entrance to inform the public of such.

CianRyan

Emmersonn wrote: »

Then a sign stating "Private Parking" would be helpful if displayed at the entrance to inform the public of such.

Sure and let's hand out "no murder" badges for everyone to wear when we go out for walks, sound good?

Del2005

Emmersonn wrote: »

Then a sign stating "Private Parking" would be helpful if displayed at the entrance to inform the public of such.

Why would a car park for a McDonald's restaurant be anything other a private car park? And the signs are in the pictures the OP posted. The OP got off on a technicality. I wouldn't mind but there are signs all around the place pointing out the match day parking but the OP missed these also.

I'd be worried about the OP's observation skills when driving because they missed the official car parking signs and think it's OK to park in a McDonald's car park when going to a match.

CrankyHaus

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

They shouldn't need signs or clampers. People should just not take the piss

People know full well it's a McDonald's car park and they shouldn't park in it if they're not in McDonald's

Ask 10 people to define "taking the piss" on this issue and you'll get 12 different answers.
Clearly signposting parking restrictions solves any ambiguity.

And there is sometimes room for genuine ambiguity, not just line stepping. Have a look at the thread on here about RFC clamping people in Dublin Airport McDs for assuming it was a shared carpark with the adjacent service station. No attempt to address the misunderstanding by the car park operator, just lads waiting and watching to catch the unwary when they walked into the service station.
What about roadside spaces in front of businesses where ownership is not clear and people tend to park freely?

Clear and enforced regulations on clamping are good for everyone in the long run. The industry got a rep for sharp practices when it had a free hand and as a result there was widespread sympathy for anyone willing to to take an angle grinder to a clamp (or at least boast about it online, I'd say 90% were Walther Mittys). A situation where criminal damage is considered the best response is not optimal, but when people see clear rules fairly enforced most will accept that private clamping is a valid solution.

jams100

CianRyan wrote: »

The signage was clear, as evident by the photos in the original post. Second to that, it comes as no surprise to anyone that parking in a private carpark in a busy business centre without visiting that business may get you clamped.

So you think it's fair for this guy to get his money back and for the company enforcing the parking having to spend more money on updating signage because someone's neck was stiff enough to park illegally and then claim they've been done wrong?

The law isn't working, its being worked.

I accept that I was technically in the wrong yes and was naive to believe there would be no clamping in operation.
The reason I appealed was that 1 the signage at the entrance is NOT clear. An example of good clear signage was just around the corner as you enter square carpark a big massive sign you can't miss on entrance, same with tesco liffey valley a big sign pointing at you as you drive in, one you can't miss, not the pokey sign this McDonalds have.
Second point not entirely relevant I suppose but it was 7:30pm the carpark was empty, 4 or 5 cars and about 50 free spaces, considering the time it was not going to be full as evidenced when I returned to carpark and there was still only 5 cars there including the 2 that were clamped. I know your going to say the time isn't important but €120 release fee for a empty car park? (Arguement: if everyone parked there the carpark would be full, dont think that would happen)

Rodney Bathgate

The OP is the reason we have clampers.

biko

OP parked in a MacDonald's, left the premises to go to a soccer match, and got clamped.
OP appealed and got a refund.

The end

jams100 wrote: »

Lesson is be careful where you park

Yes