Doctor/Barrister dual qualification?

del85

Hi,

I'm 6 months away from being fully qualified in medicine as a GP, and I'm considering dual qualification by training to be a barrister once I finish.

I'm considering perhaps part time study with the KI legal studies diploma, followed by the BL part time also. I'm lucky enough that I'm already in a profession where flexible sessional is not hard to come by, so I should easily be able to support myself during the initial stages of training.

I have a couple of questions, if that's okay, which are geared towards me assessing how realistic/sensible my plans are.

Would a combination of BL and Medical doctor represent a "USP" that might increase my chances of success in obtaining work, or would it be viewed as completely irrelevant?

Would it be feasible to work at all during the "Deviling" period, in order to keep food on the table?

Am I completely mad for even considering this?

Many thanks in advance!

Samuel T. Cogley

I know of an experienced doctor that retrained as a lawyer, not sure if barrister or solicitor. Minted is the word that comes to mind. They were much further on in their medical career though in fairness.

del85

I'm far enough in that I'm working independently, but not so far in as to have long term commitments in any practice so hopefully I've timed it right!

So long as I can pay the bills while doing the diploma/BL I'd be happy. Minted can come later

Is there scope to work at all while devilling, and would such a combined qualification help with getting business from solicitors as a barrister?

handlemaster

del85 wrote: »

I'm far enough in that I'm working independently, but not so far in as to have long term commitments in any practice so hopefully I've timed it right!

So long as I can pay the bills while doing the diploma/BL I'd be happy. Minted can come later

Is there scope to work at all while devilling, and would such a combined qualification help with getting business from solicitors as a barrister?

Job satisfaction should be the priority. Money is over rated

del85

Fully agree, there are easier and quicker ways to make money. As I say, once the bills are paid I'm happy.

My inquiries pertain more to the feasibility of my plans

Victor

It would put you at an advantage to non-dual qualified barristers. Depending on practice areas, there might also be the likes of mental health tribunals.

At least there would be plenty of locum work. I saw a dual-qualified barrister/doctor on Twitter the other day noting they were trading in their robes for scrubs.

JustAThought

A few years back the law society started employing full time career guidance councilers to advice the hordes of qualified solicitors and barristers they have on their books about new careers as there is simply not enough training or devilling apprenticeships for the masses they have accepted money from for years to qualify and work in their chosen fields. I know three in one family and an in law - 2 barristers 2 solicitors - who have been out of proper work for years. One lost his house, one has emigrated, re-qualified abroad and is still financially impoverished - not only by debt but the pittance they are earning - far below dole level had she stayed here and signed on. I used work with another girl who was constantly terrified someone would come in and see her - apparently it was not allowed or taken extremely poorly if a deviling barrister was seen to be taking ‘coin’ elsewhere - ie working to earn money whilst supposed to be deviling or available for same. I’m not sure if things have changed now and you are no longer not allowed work while deviling - maybe it has, and perhaps attitudes have changed - perhaps not. Certainly the wall to breaking in is still high and loaded with barbed wire on the top - do you have someone who will employ you after - or a barrister who will employ you after - if not it is going to be a hard, long and impoverished road ahead. Its not as though you can advertise your services or open a shop.

AFAIK to practise as a barrister without a law degree you now have to do a 2 year ‘conversion’ course at Kings Inn, and then train as a barrister - 4 years- including passing the exams in Irish - and then progress to devilling where you might be lucky enough to get some crumbs of work if you are connected and if you hang around the law library long enough.

One has to ask why? No doubt you are a very high achiever and enjoy the admiration this might bring but surely at some time of your life you should be planning to consolidate your knowledge and gain medical experience and also to enjoy your life. Being newly qualified in medicine is just the start - like any business you are now at the start (bottom) and at the experience gaining part of your career and building the skills and attitudes and knowledge to be good at your craft. I don’t see how throwing yourself half heartedly into another career would benefit either the law or the medicine careers. The regime of study and reading and the ruthlessness in law is very unforgiving - you will be expected to be reading in the law library and attending the courts when not attending lectures or writing papers and competing alongside the rest of your year for reference books and papers - usually hidden by others in your class so they can gain advantage. Its ruthless and not pretty and not the kind of convivial old boys club you might hope.

At the end of the day and after 6 or 8 years what might you be - a new graduate hoping for contracts on a ad hoc basis in law with a mediocre ad hoc medical career behind you, no depth as a person and probably stressed and unhappy and trapped in Ireland by your degree/law as you cannot work with this overseas.

Is there not something competitive that might bring happiness and satisfaction to your life other that this somewhat ruinous suggestion? Yacht racing or F2 circut driving - more fun, more impressive, more social, more accessible and more long term gains and still taking up your brain in impressive challenges where you can meet and compete with like minded people.

I think your idea of a USP after another 8 years is somewhat vague and almost irrelevant as both areas are so different and have so many highly experienced people working in them that you will simply appear as a jack of both trades with little experience or depth in either tbh. I would value little a dentist who told me he had a wualification as a doctor as well but only one years post qualification experience as a dentist - if I want a tooth fixed I go to an experienced dentist - not someone is is clearly clever and qualified in something else but might no have the experience to crown a complex tooth compared to a long standing practitioner. Ditto Barrister representing in court and doctor - you cannot put yourself on the stand as a medical witness to cross examine yourself and part of the skills and experience in defending or presenting medical negligence/ liabel cases will not only be learned as part of the law qualification but also make you entirely unemployable or unattractive to employ as a HSE contracted doctor. Who would want the devil on the inside poking around?

Maybe your plan os to practice company law or some other area but again - why? What will a part discarded career in medicine bring to it - or your clients? It might be an impressive dinner conversation but beyond that it brings little to your company or clients - in either field expect for diluting your experience and offering.

del85

Many thanks for the considered input.

Perhaps I was unclear with regards to where I am career-wise, I am just about to complete my higher specialist training in medicine thus will be fully qualified and licensed to practice independently.

My intention was not pursue these studies out of a "desire for admiration", but rather because I have a genuine interest. I'm very much at the "thinking out loud" stage, and recognize message boards such as this as an invaluable resource, because frankly it's the closest I'm ever going to get to interact with people from your profession (short of a court summons!). I do thank you for taking the time to reply.

Your insights with regards to my "USP" theory are particularly appreciated and I thank you for the frank assessment. I am aware that obtaining work as a newly qualified barrister is difficult. I am in the advantageous position that I can supplement my income as a fully qualified medical professional while I train. I can state for a fact that the HSE will have no qualms whatsoever about employing me.

Again I thank you for your interesting and frank response.

From the deviling point of view, I was working under the impression (misapprehension) that such positions are actually not difficult to find, rather it's the financial aspect that is prohibitive?

del85

Victor wrote: »

It would put you at an advantage to non-dual qualified barristers. Depending on practice areas, there might also be the likes of mental health tribunals.

At least there would be plenty of locum work. I saw a dual-qualified barrister/doctor on Twitter the other day noting they were trading in their robes for scrubs.

Locum isn't a problem at the moment, unfortunately for all of us!

The point has been made that the "jack of all trades, master of none" dimension may detract from my employability. I figured the combination might be advantageous, but who knows I suppose.

Marcusm

I’d wonder if there is any true synergy from the dual non-associated qualifications. Assuming you successfully complete your GP scheme you will have developed a valuable skill set and professional network based on the “retail” end of medicine. To an extent, this maps more to the solicitor profession than the bar. Clearly senior medical professionals can obtain significant medico-legal work and income streams but these tend to come from non-primary care physicians. Likewise, while your medical expertise could be of value in a legal career, it would not generate any significant additional income or opportunities perhaps other than novelty. Personal injury work is much less focussed on the bar and more on PIAB etc. You lack a network with senior secondary or tertiary care physicians as might allow you to identify and mine subject matter experts etc.

I would not let this put you off - these are not reasons to avoid the bar, simply an expectation on my part that there would not be significant synergies.

Perhaps, in due course, an in-house role in managing or guiding significant product litigation (pharmaceutical or medical devices) would make the best of the dual hatting. However, such roles are more “corporate” and might not be of interest to someone who has identified independent practitioner roles such as GP and the bar.

Claw Hammer

It was very common up to about 40 years ago for medical graduates and others to also obtain the qualification of Barrister at Law. It could be done contemporaneously with the main degree. It is perfectly feasible to work part-time for example at weekends while devilling.
Many nurses who have qualified as barristers work a shift at the weekends in the early stages.
The real problem will in fact be getting through the course in the Kings Inns. There is a very high personal attendance requirement. This may be incompatible with the practice of medicine.

del85

Marcusm wrote: »

I’d wonder if there is any true synergy from the dual non-associated qualifications. Assuming you successfully complete your GP scheme you will have developed a valuable skill set and professional network based on the “retail” end of medicine. To an extent, this maps more to the solicitor profession than the bar. Clearly senior medical professionals can obtain significant medico-legal work and income streams but these tend to come from non-primary care physicians. Likewise, while your medical expertise could be of value in a legal career, it would not generate any significant additional income or opportunities perhaps other than novelty. Personal injury work is much less focussed on the bar and more on PIAB etc. You lack a network with senior secondary or tertiary care physicians as might allow you to identify and mine subject matter experts etc.

I would not let this put you off - these are not reasons to avoid the bar, simply an expectation on my part that there would not be significant synergies.

Perhaps, in due course, an in-house role in managing or guiding significant product litigation (pharmaceutical or medical devices) would make the best of the dual hatting. However, such roles are more “corporate” and might not be of interest to someone who has identified independent practitioner roles such as GP and the bar.

Thank you for your input, I'm keen to avoid working under any false assumptions when planning ahead. I will avoid over-estimating the leverage that any pre-existing qualifications may afford me.

That (much appreciated) insight would not dissuade me from pursuing it. The financial pit-falls are far more daunting, however I'm confident enough that this is something I can mitigate against.

del85

Claw Hammer wrote: »

It was very common up to about 40 years ago for medical graduates and others to also obtain the qualification of Barrister at Law. It could be done contemporaneously with the main degree. It is perfectly feasible to work part-time for example at weekends while devilling.
Many nurses who have qualified as barristers work a shift at the weekends in the early stages.
The real problem will in fact be getting through the course in the Kings Inns. There is a very high personal attendance requirement. This may be incompatible with the practice of medicine.

Indeed I have considered that, but thankfully the stage of life that I'm at and also my choice of specialty afford me a degree of flexibility with regards to my working hours. Once it's permitted to work while devilling I'm optimistic that I could make it work. I don't live lavishly, nor am I particularly interested in doing so!

Tony_TwoLegs

I was scanning through King's Inns posts out of curiosity. I have completed the BL (along with 2.law degrees; BCL, LLM) and I am pre-PhD. I feel I have enough legal acumen at this stage to observe what's what.

In my 'travels', I have encountered quite a few doctors who are dually-qualified. It's not a novel USP surprisingly.

I agree, albeit late to the conversation, with the jack-of-all-trades. A medical background would bring very little (except a study ethic) to the Bar. If you had an engineering background you'd have a much better stance. The Bar cares not for your previous life generally, so if you've a PhD in Physics or an Arts degree, it's generally not relevant. You'll need call expert witnesses so your own experience is moot.

Without a law degree you're looking at a long and expensive route into being a barrister (c.€24,000 in King's Inns fees over 4 yrs).

Why not try the Law Society's FE1s instead.

Diamond_Hands

I wonder why so many people still insist on becoming a barrister when the job market is utterly grim and you're guaranteed to be earning pennies in the first few years. At least as a trainee solicitor you could have a contract with a top firm and be guaranteed a good career progression. No such thing exists as a barrister.

I’ve given expert opinion in a number of medico legal cases, some Barristers are very knowledgeable of injuries/treatments, others are clueless, it is clear as day in the questioning. Having duel qualifications would certainly give an edge, but whether it would be worth going through years of medical training just to be a better Barrister is questionable, better research, and advice from a medically trained professional would probably yield the same result.

Our indemnity companies often have full time duel qualified personnel to give advice to members.

Tony_TwoLegs

Diamond_Hands wrote: »

I wonder why so many people still insist on becoming a barrister when the job market is utterly grim and you're guaranteed to be earning pennies in the first few years. At least as a trainee solicitor you could have a contract with a top firm and be guaranteed a good career progression. No such thing exists as a barrister.

It's true a solicitor will earn more for the first few years but at around year 5 in your BL career (as verified from many people I know in the industry), the money will often eclipse the solicitor. That said, each case is unique. Many feel the job satisfaction and collegiality at the Bar tend to be higher.

Horses for courses. Money is second to your own inner satisfaction. Do what is best for you.

Regarding the initial topic; a Law degree would be of more value than a Medical degree (or any other degree for that matter).

hullaballoo

Tony_TwoLegs wrote: »

It's true a solicitor will earn more for the first few years but at around year 5 in your BL career (as verified from many people I know in the industry), the money will often eclipse the solicitor. That said, each case is unique. Many feel the job satisfaction and collegiality at the Bar tend to be higher.

Horses for courses. Money is second to your own inner satisfaction. Do what is best for you.

Regarding the initial topic; a Law degree would be of more value than a Medical degree (or any other degree for that matter).

This is no longer the case and in fact has not been the case for 15 or 20 years at this stage. If it was still the case no one would ever leave the bar after 5 years, whereas the vast majority of people leaving are well beyond 5 years.

The proportion of barristers whose income is in excess of an average solicitor salary is much smaller than your post suggests. The proportion of barristers whose income is in excess of an average medical doctor/practitioner is miniscule.

Of course all the people you know in the industry are telling you they're doing well, no surprises there. They're hardly going to tell you they are not making money.

Diamond_Hands

A solicitor at a big five firm 5PQE would, on average, be earning over 100k. What percentage of barristers five years after qualified can say the same? Or even 10? 15?

to99

Diamond_Hands wrote: »

I wonder why so many people still insist on becoming a barrister when the job market is utterly grim and you're guaranteed to be earning pennies in the first few years. At least as a trainee solicitor you could have a contract with a top firm and be guaranteed a good career progression. No such thing exists as a barrister.

You could use your BL to be an inhouse corporate counsel, no?

chunkylover4

1) There are others who have taken a similar route to the Bar. Some have been more successful than others. Who you devil with, Networking and prior connections will be far more important for obtaining instructing solicitors. It would be extremely difficult to become an established medical negligence barrister on the Plaintiff side and slightly less so on the defense side. As others have pointed out, in respect of general personal injury claims, medical experts instructed should be considered of much greater value.

2) There should be no issue doing other work while devilling but obviously this will depend on your master.

del85 wrote: »

Hi,

I'm 6 months away from being fully qualified in medicine as a GP, and I'm considering dual qualification by training to be a barrister once I finish.

I'm considering perhaps part time study with the KI legal studies diploma, followed by the BL part time also. I'm lucky enough that I'm already in a profession where flexible sessional is not hard to come by, so I should easily be able to support myself during the initial stages of training.

I have a couple of questions, if that's okay, which are geared towards me assessing how realistic/sensible my plans are.

Would a combination of BL and Medical doctor represent a "USP" that might increase my chances of success in obtaining work, or would it be viewed as completely irrelevant?

Would it be feasible to work at all during the "Deviling" period, in order to keep food on the table?

Am I completely mad for even considering this?

Many thanks in advance!

bernardand

Thank you for your input, I'm keen to avoid working under any false assumptions when planning ahead. I will avoid over-estimating the leverage that any pre-existing qualifications may afford me.