Poor workmanship or just unlucky?

Oonagh123

I got some work completed in my apartment Dec 2018 - Jan 2019.

This consisted of adding an ensuite to a bedroom and making the kitchen bigger (moved an internal wall).

A few weeks ago I came home from work and the place was flooded, a pipe had burst off the back of the shower and emptied the water tank.Only one pipe came off the back of the shower, the other pipe was on securely. The water couldn't escape so it went down the back of the tiled shower wall and up through the floors, down the fire wall and into my neighbour apartment. My wooden floors are destroyed they all need to be replaced (hall & 2 bedrooms).

I contacted the builder who done the work for me and he appeared a few days later, he smashed the tiles to get into the shower to replace a copper ring (I'm not sure what it's called). He skimmed the neighbours roof. I would have assumed he was going to finish off the job but he didn’t paint the roof. I decided to arrange a painter to come in and finish off the job at my own expense.

The builder who completed my mini renovation had done plenty of work for my friends and family. He’s not answering my calls or texts. I paid him cash for the work. I told him to book down any materials he required for the job in a local hardware store.

I didn’t have contents insurance so all repairs will be paid from my own pocket. I have since got insurance – tough lesson.

Is there anything I can do to get the builder to cough up some of the money for the repairs or is it just tough luck?!

Die Hard 2019

Oonagh123 wrote: »

I got some work completed in my apartment Dec 2018 - Jan 2019.

This consisted of adding an ensuite to a bedroom and making the kitchen bigger (moved an internal wall).

A few weeks ago I came home from work and the place was flooded, a pipe had burst off the back of the shower and emptied the water tank.Only one pipe came off the back of the shower, the other pipe was on securely. The water couldn't escape so it went down the back of the tiled shower wall and up through the floors, down the fire wall and into my neighbour apartment. My wooden floors are destroyed they all need to be replaced (hall & 2 bedrooms).

I contacted the builder who done the work for me and he appeared a few days later, he smashed the tiles to get into the shower to replace a copper ring (I'm not sure what it's called). He skimmed the neighbours roof. I would have assumed he was going to finish off the job but he didn’t paint the roof. I decided to arrange a painter to come in and finish off the job at my own expense.

The builder who completed my mini renovation had done plenty of work for my friends and family. He’s not answering my calls or texts. I paid him cash for the work. I told him to book down any materials he required for the job in a local hardware store.

I didn’t have contents insurance so all repairs will be paid from my own pocket. I have since got insurance – tough lesson.

Is there anything I can do to get the builder to cough up some of the money for the repairs or is it just tough luck?!

Whoever plumbed the shower is responsible.

Bobblehats

Shoddy at best

Oonagh123

Die Hard 2019 wrote: »

Whoever plumbed the shower is responsible.

That's the guys who I contacted to fix the issue. I'm now getting no answer from calls or texts.

mickdw

There is no excuse for that. Its not even a mains pressure pipe just a tank feed so id assume it wasnt tightened at all.
Did he redo your tiles?
What about the neighbour? They are going to produce a significant bill i would have thought.

Montage of Feck

From your description it sounds like somebody never put an olive on the copper(?) pipe, while I'm no plumber that sounds like a very basic mistake to make.

Oonagh123

mickdw wrote: »

There is no excuse for that. Its not even a mains pressure pipe just a tank feed so id assume it wasnt tightened at all.
Did he redo your tiles?
What about the neighbour? They are going to produce a significant bill i would have thought.

He broke the tiles, I bought the part needed to fix the issue in the local hardware shop, he fitted and replaced the tiles.

I've worked with the neighbour and made sure everything was fixed 100%. It was mainly their kitchen roof needed painted and skimmed. They cut a hole in the roof to release the water.

I'm out a lot of money replacing the wooden floors and they builders want nothing to do with it, anyhow I've no proof they done any work for me considering I paid cash.

Oonagh123

Montage of Feck wrote: »

From your description it sounds like somebody never put an olive on the copper(?) pipe, while I'm no plumber that sounds like a very basic mistake to make.

I looked up google images and that's the part I had to replace. I told them to ensure they other pipe was secure. I watched them try to pull the other pipe off and they couldn't it wouldn't budge.

Should this part come in the shower box or is this something a plumber supplies during installation?

Die Hard 2019

Oonagh123 wrote: »

I looked up google images and that's the part I had to replace. I told them to ensure they other pipe was secure. I watched them try to pull the other pipe off and they couldn't it wouldn't budge.

Should this part come in the shower box or is this something a plumber supplies during installation?

It's irrelevant. If there wasn't a global pandemic and we were normal I'd tell you to let him know it's small claims court next if he doesn't make right with you.
I'm sure there is enough call and text history that he can't just lie to a judge so you won't have to hire experts to prove he did the work.
But at the moment I really don't know what to tell you, how much have you paid ?

L1011

Call from another phone would be the first thing to try, if they are ignoring your number

scwazrh

You paid cash so you’ve zero come back . Hard lesson learned but in future get written quote , written warranty and invoice before paying

Sleeper12

Oonagh123 wrote: »

I got some work completed in my apartment Dec 2018 - Jan 2019.

This consisted of adding an ensuite to a bedroom and making the kitchen bigger (moved an internal wall).

A few weeks ago I came home from work and the place was flooded, a pipe had burst off the back of the shower and emptied the water tank.Only one pipe came off the back of the shower, the other pipe was on securely. The water couldn't escape so it went down the back of the tiled shower wall and up through the floors, down the fire wall and into my neighbour apartment. My wooden floors are destroyed they all need to be replaced (hall & 2 bedrooms).

I contacted the builder who done the work for me and he appeared a few days later, he smashed the tiles to get into the shower to replace a copper ring (I'm not sure what it's called). He skimmed the neighbours roof. I would have assumed he was going to finish off the job but he didn’t paint the roof. I decided to arrange a painter to come in and finish off the job at my own expense.

The builder who completed my mini renovation had done plenty of work for my friends and family. He’s not answering my calls or texts. I paid him cash for the work. I told him to book down any materials he required for the job in a local hardware store.

I didn’t have contents insurance so all repairs will be paid from my own pocket. I have since got insurance – tough lesson.

Is there anything I can do to get the builder to cough up some of the money for the repairs or is it just tough luck?!

There are two lessons to be learnt here. Insurance is one & cash jobs are a bad thing is the other one.

I assume you have no written quote, detailed invoice or receipt for work done. It's his word against yours.

Did you get any photos? Playing devil's advocate here but it's possible that the pipe or fitting that popped could have been from the original installation before he started the job. I've replaced showers and there is a leak. On investigation I could find that I removed a screw from the old shower. The screw was screwed into a pipe & only leaked when I removed the screw. The mistake was made 15 years ago but I have to deal with it.

Iits probably his fault but I'm just saying that there are times when the original installer is at fault and not the last man on the job. Also someone mentioned that it's not even mains pressure. If you have a 2 or 3 bar pump on this then it is greater than my mains pressure at home.

Again I'm not saying that it's not his fault but you need proof. Proof that it's his fault, proof that he did the job and proof of what works he carried out and proof of how much you paid him. Cash jobs usually are difficult to prove in court due to the lack of documentation. No documents & you are relying on the tradesman to be totally honest for you to be able to win a court case.

Oonagh123

Die Hard 2019 wrote: »

It's irrelevant. If there wasn't a global pandemic and we were normal I'd tell you to let him know it's small claims court next if he doesn't make right with you.
I'm sure there is enough call and text history that he can't just lie to a judge so you won't have to hire experts to prove he did the work.
But at the moment I really don't know what to tell you, how much have you paid ?

How much have I paid for the repairs so far? Around €3k. This includes painting the neighbours roof and replacing the wooden floors in the apartment.

Cee-Jay-Cee

Tell him that he has 48hrs to reply otherwise you are lodging a claim wit the small claims court AND you are informing revenue that he done work for you and insisted on cash and wouldn’t give you a receipt when you asked. That should get his attention.

the_pen_turner

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

Tell him that he has 48hrs to reply otherwise you are lodging a claim wit the small claims court AND you are informing revenue that he done work for you and insisted on cash and wouldn’t give you a receipt when you asked. That should get his attention.

paying cash doesn't mean the job isn't tax compliant and through the books. you don have to give a receipt unless asked for

the_pen_turner

you say that the materials were charged to the local hardware store. is that now or when the job was originally done.
if it was when it was originally done then any warranty on the parts is on the shop or you . the builder only sullied labour.
if this is the case then you would have to prove that it was workmanship that was wrong and not the materials

Sleeper12

the_pen_turner wrote:

you say that the materials were charged to the local hardware store. is that now or when the job was originally done. if it was when it was originally done then any warranty on the parts is on the shop or you . the builder only sullied labour. if this is the case then you would have to prove that it was workmanship that was wrong and not the materials

For years here on boards I've told people that it's better to have the tradesmen supply the goods for this very reason. The builder came in and replaced /repaired the leaking fitting. Now it's impossible to prove if it's bad workmanship or faulty parts. If builder supplies the parts then it doesn't matter because he'd be liable for parts & labour.

Iodine1

the_pen_turner wrote: »

paying cash doesn't mean the job isn't tax compliant and through the books. you don have to give a receipt unless asked for

Usually a receipt is given if tax is being paid. No receipt, no vat is paid and benefit is little or not passed on at all. And customer has no record of work done and no comeback, and all grand until something goes wrong. Manufacturers claim unapproved fitters used and walk away from any warranties.

degsie

So, you paid cash to avoid VAT and you don't have contents insurance. Karma comes to mind!

the_pen_turner

Iodine1 wrote: »

Usually a receipt is given if tax is being paid. No receipt, no vat is paid and benefit is little or not passed on at all. And customer has no record of work done and no comeback, and all grand until something goes wrong. Manufacturers claim unapproved fitters used and walk away from any warranties.

a receipt has to be offered. you don't have to give one unless they want one. op hasn't said if they asked for a receipt.

doing a cash job doesn't mean its not official. I often do that. I often quote a job that is 1135 (1000 plus 13.5%) plus vat so 1288.25 knowing the customer wont pay the vat and want a cash job. they get their 'cash ' job and feel better and I get to run an honest company.

if the customer wants no proof the work was done , that's not the tradesmans fault

JustAThought

Plenty of times Ive had tradesmen refuse to give a receipt - in fact it has happened so many times I now have a receipt book in the kitchen which I ask them to sign attach bisiness card to and out their name onto. Often they still refuse point blank. Last weeks windows - guys said head office would issue it, rang and went down to it the next mirning ‘ the person eho has the password isn’t in yet’ - etc etc. I now automatically take photos of the van amd the men in situ in the house working every time so I will have comeback - Heading to court as soon as the Carona is over with a total chancer who point blank refused to give a receipt and put holes in my plaster walls out of meanness or spite - didnt notice til he had gone. Very fortunately I had taken before photos and videos of both rooms. The advice I got OP was to write - registered post - asking for (in my instance the outstanding receipt again and a fix of shoddy work done) - give a reasonable time (short) for reply in writing and state the no of times you have texted or called and got no reply and state that unless you get satisfaction you will be raking it up with the Small claims
court - problems and fun start there but at least you have some redress. For more that either 2 or 3 k its the other courts - free legal advice will advise you of all the clauses and hoops.

Some real nasty comments here saying it is your fault - karma is a double edged sword folks.

Sleeper12

JustAThought wrote:

Some real nasty comments here saying it is your fault - karma is a double edged sword folks.

You need to look for better quality tradesmen.

the_pen_turner

JustAThought wrote: »

Plenty of times Ive had tradesmen refuse to give a receipt - in fact it has happened so many times I now have a receipt book in the kitchen which I ask them to sign attach bisiness card to and out their name onto. Often they still refuse point blank. Last weeks windows - guys said head office would issue it, rang and went down to it the next mirning ‘ the person eho has the password isn’t in yet’ - etc etc. I now automatically take photos of the van amd the men in situ in the house working every time so I will have comeback - Heading to court as soon as the Carona is over with a total chancer who point blank refused to give a receipt and put holes in my plaster walls out of meanness or spite - didnt notice til he had gone. Very fortunately I had taken before photos and videos of both rooms. The advice I got OP was to write - registered post - asking for (in my instance the outstanding receipt again and a fix of shoddy work done) - give a reasonable time (short) for reply in writing and state the no of times you have texted or called and got no reply and state that unless you get satisfaction you will be raking it up with the Small claims
court - problems and fun start there but at least you have some redress. For more that either 2 or 3 k its the other courts - free legal advice will advise you of all the clauses and hoops.

Some real nasty comments here saying it is your fault - karma is a double edged sword folks.

you are either very unlucky or need to find better tradesmen or raise your budget to cover better tradesmen.
there is no reason why an honest and above board tradesman wouldn't issue a receipt when its asked for.

JustAThought

the_pen_turner wrote: »

you are either very unlucky or need to find better tradesmen or raise your budget to cover better tradesmen.
there is no reason why an honest and above board tradesman wouldn't issue a receipt when its asked for.

I agree that I need to find in some instances better and more honest and competent tradesman. Sadly it is easier to tell everyone after the fact that someone was utterly incapable or delivered a mediocre standard of ‘trade’ or was total rip off merchant afterwards than to get one that delivers what they say they can do to a normal standard. Sadly the no receipts problem has become such a norm that I now have an Easons receipt book in my drawer as standard. Paying a fair and agreed in advance price does not mean it is done without proof or receipt - sadly many seem to assume that if they refuse this will be accepted with no comeback. As for paying more I do not see why I should be extorted from an agreed price for a delivery docket or receipt with the company name in it. For nothing else like the car and NCT I like to keep a record of all the upkeep and repairs done, as well as to prove what the work was and that it has been done and properly paid for.

There are too many chancers and fly by nighters operating out there with no regulation or quality standard. We need to protect the buyer and have some kind of watchdog with teeth that can act on our behalf - not an advice and make a note for stastical reasons ‘ombudsman’ - you might as well have a chocolate teapot. This is probably the reason people get nasty and contact revenue and make claims through the small claims - they are just not prepared to put up with this kind of gob****ery and gombeenman act anymore - partucularly when so many things like LX and boiler instillation are supposed to be regulated and legally compliant - I’m not just talking about hanging curtain rails.

Still waters

the_pen_turner wrote: »

a receipt has to be offered. you don't have to give one unless they want one. op hasn't said if they asked for a receipt.

doing a cash job doesn't mean its not official. I often do that. I often quote a job that is 1135 (1000 plus 13.5%) plus vat so 1288.25 knowing the customer wont pay the vat and want a cash job. they get their 'cash ' job and feel better and I get to run an honest company.

if the customer wants no proof the work was done , that's not the tradesmans fault

Do you still write an invoice in your book and give to your accountant or do you just lodge the cash without writing up invoice/receipt

the_pen_turner

Still waters wrote: »

Do you still write an invoice in your book and give to your accountant or do you just lodge the cash without writing up invoice/receipt

of course there is an invoice. but for 1350 , just like was agreed. they don't know that there is an invoice and that the vat is being paid.

the_pen_turner

JustAThought wrote: »

I agree that I need to find in some instances better and more honest and competent tradesman. Sadly it is easier to tell everyone after the fact that someone was utterly incapable or delivered a mediocre standard of ‘trade’ or was total rip off merchant afterwards than to get one that delivers what they say they can do to a normal standard. Sadly the no receipts problem has become such a norm that I now have an Easons receipt book in my drawer as standard. Paying a fair and agreed in advance price does not mean it is done without proof or receipt - sadly many seem to assume that if they refuse this will be accepted with no comeback. As for paying more I do not see why I should be extorted from an agreed price for a delivery docket or receipt with the company name in it. For nothing else like the car and NCT I like to keep a record of all the upkeep and repairs done, as well as to prove what the work was and that it has been done and properly paid for.

There are too many chancers and fly by nighters operating out there with no regulation or quality standard. We need to protect the buyer and have some kind of watchdog with teeth that can act on our behalf - not an advice and make a note for stastical reasons ‘ombudsman’ - you might as well have a chocolate teapot. This is probably the reason people get nasty and contact revenue and make claims through the small claims - they are just not prepared to put up with this kind of gob****ery and gombeenman act anymore - partucularly when so many things like LX and boiler instillation are supposed to be regulated and legally compliant - I’m not just talking about hanging curtain rails.

there are some cowboys out there.
I agree we need a lot more regulation .


im not saying you (not aimed at you specifically) should pay more for a receipt but rather pay more for a decent tradesman. I know money doesn't guarantee quality but you are less likely to get a cowboy charging 200 a day than one only charging 100 a day.

a lot of customers arnt willing to pay a fair days wages to a tradesman and get in cheap guys instead that don't know what they are doing or are insured etc. running an official and tax compliant businesss is expensive.

Sleeper12

Plumber myself and I'd know quite a lot of tradesmen. I don't think I've ever met a tradesman that would refuse to give a invoice or receipt unless this was always the agreement. This is why I suggested that you need to use better tradesmen. I get that some do "cash jobs" but someone refusing to give a receipt has to be in the minority imo.