Van insurance for landscaping without Vat number

Golden Landscapes

Hi guys,

my two vans are up for renewal ,

i am and landscaping contractor ,must insurance companies wont even quote because i dont have a vat number, is there any way around this ?
i dont want a vat number as its only a small business and more papper work and cost n myself

Thanks in advance

sasta le

To get commerical rates you would surely have to be Vat registered?

mickdw

One van i would have said was nuts because you can be fully legit as a low turnover business without being vat registered.

Running 2 vans and presumably 2 persons being paid, its hard to imagine how you would remain under the vat threshold.

Golden Landscapes

All my friends are in tradesmen, some are sole traders nearly all of them have no vat number .

it appears to be an issue with being a landscaping contractor that the require a vat number

Sleeper12

As above. With two vans on the road I don't see how your turnover is below the VAT threshold of 37,500. This could trigger alarm bells in the insurance company as they might not see you as being honest on the policy

Sleeper12

Golden Landscapes wrote:

it appears to be an issue with being a landscaping contractor that the require a vat number

No. The issue is you having two vans & not being registered for vat.

Is this a legitimate issue or is your business name your user name and you are trying to drum up business?

Stratvs

mickdw wrote: »

Running 2 vans and presumably 2 persons being paid, its hard to imagine how you would remain under the vat threshold.

+1

Golden Landscapes wrote: »

i dont want a vat number as its only a small business and more papper work and cost n myself

The VAT registration threshold for services such as this is annual turnover of €37,500. You can legitimately operate without a VAT number under that threshold. I'm not sure why the insurance company insists on a VAT number. If it is just as proof of being Revenue registered then your tax registration (PPSN should surely suffice). However as others have said it's hard to imagine two vans/people and making an income and staying under the VAT threshold.

Golden Landscapes

I can assure you I am not trying the drum up business!
I have two vans because one is a tipper and is in economical to run as a every day van it is very large and a ward the other van is used as a run about and for small jobs where access and parking is restricted.

elperello

Try an independent insurance broker.

My VAT number is my PPS number, with IE at the start. Can you not just send this onto them and see what happens? Can't imagine it'll trigger a series of events that will have you hauled off to prison? It's probably just the insurance company doing a box ticking exercise.

Sleeper12

Deleted User wrote: »

My VAT number is my PPS number, with IE at the start. Can you not just send this onto them and see what happens? Can't imagine it'll trigger a series of events that will have you hauled off to prison? It's probably just the insurance company doing a box ticking exercise.

I can't believe you are advising OP to lie to his insurance company.

mickdw

Golden Landscapes wrote: »

I can assure you I am not trying the drum up business!
I have two vans because one is a tipper and is in economical to run as a every day van it is very large and a ward the other van is used as a run about and for small jobs where access and parking is restricted.

Ok that makes sense.
Have you explained the scenario to them.
Ive a non vat registered business myself but dont used a commercial vehicle. I dont see why they cant offer a policy. Maybe one for insurance ombudsman.

Eggs For Dinner

Landscaper is the preferred occupation declared by our mobile brethren.

Sleeper12

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I can't believe you are advising OP to lie to his insurance company.

What's the downside? The insurance company have a checklist that doesn't make sense.


What are they gonna do? If he has a crash will they say "well, if you were vat registered that crash wouldn't have happened, so we're not covering you".


OP can either give his PPS number, which is valid in my opinion anyway, or he can go without insurance (bad idea) or incur lots of additional messing around and costs by registering for VAT when he doesn't need to (another bad idea).


Give them your PPS number and move on with your life. The insurance company don't care. They're literally ticking boxes and the op has a silly 'computer says no' situation.

Sleeper12

Deleted User wrote:

What's the downside? The insurance company have a checklist that doesn't make sense.

Making a false declaration on an insurance policy is fraud.

Eggs For Dinner

Deleted User wrote: »

What's the downside? The insurance company have a checklist that doesn't make sense.


What are they gonna do? If he has a crash will they say "well, if you were vat registered that crash wouldn't have happened, so we're not covering you".


OP can either give his PPS number, which is valid in my opinion anyway, or he can go without insurance (bad idea) or incur lots of additional messing around and costs by registering for VAT when he doesn't need to (another bad idea).


Give them your PPS number and move on with your life. The insurance company don't care. They're literally ticking boxes and the op has a silly 'computer says no' situation.

The opposite of each point mentioned here is good advice

Wishbone Ash

Stratvs wrote: »

...I'm not sure why the insurance company insists on a VAT number....

Possibly to make it difficult for private drivers from trying to get insurance on commercial vehicles?

mickdw

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

Landscaper is the preferred occupation declared by our mobile brethren.

I didnt cop this but id imagine this may have alot to do with the refusal. In fairness, they would have ample reason to refuse travellers.

blindside88

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

Landscaper is the preferred occupation declared by our mobile brethren.

That is 100% the reason. I previously worked in motor insurance and it was policy not to quote landscapers without a vat number for this very reason. Is there a different title you could give to describe your work without lying. For example horticulturist or general labourer?

CiarraiAbu2

Ring revenue, get through to registrations and ask for a letter stating your not vat registered, send this to your insurance company.

Sleeper12

CiarraiAbu2 wrote:

Ring revenue, get through to registrations and ask for a letter stating your not vat registered, send this to your insurance company.

Worst idea ever!!

OP could bring revenue knocking on his door. Reading between the lines of the opening post I think op won't want to attract any revenue attention

mickdw

Does anyone want to attract their attention! Ya I wouldnt be contacting revenue.

CiarraiAbu2

What are ye talking about they won't give a ****e unless he's not tax registered and that would be a different story altogether.

Golden Landscapes

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

Landscaper is the preferred occupation declared by our mobile brethren.

Yes now that’s what I have heard !!
And of that true I’m sure my rate is higher aswell for that reason alone

elperello

Golden Landscapes wrote: »

Yes now that’s what I have heard !!
And of that true I’m sure my rate is higher aswell for that reason alone

Are you getting quotes from the companies yourself or using a broker?

listermint

Sleeper12 wrote: »

No. The issue is you having two vans & not being registered for vat.

Is this a legitimate issue or is your business name your user name and you are trying to drum up business?

Tbf for commercial tax pps.
Paye is acceptable form.

So you can tax a commercial vehicle with PPS number.

Golden Landscapes

elperello wrote: »

Are you getting quotes from the companies yourself or using a broker?

From brokers insurance companies won’t quote

elperello

Golden Landscapes wrote: »

From brokers insurance companies won’t quote

Your broker is supposed to be working for you.

If they know you are a genuine business they should be communicating that to the companies and getting quotes. If they are getting your business insurance and house insurance etc. you are a good customer.

There is no requirement to be VAT registered to either insure or tax a van.

Wishbone Ash

elperello wrote: »

...There is no requirement to be VAT registered to either insure or tax a van.

There may be no legal requirement but that does not mean that an insurance company will not place their own stricter requirements.

Just because a 17yr old is legally licensed to drive a Bugatti Veyron on public roads does not mean that an insurance company has to insure them.

AXA don't require a VAT number. I am a landscape gardener insured with them and never asked for a VAT number. Get a quote online with them.

Can't get a quote with anyone else but haven't tried a broker.

Eggs For Dinner

elperello wrote: »

Your broker is supposed to be working for you.

If they know you are a genuine business they should be communicating that to the companies and getting quotes. If they are getting your business insurance and house insurance etc. you are a good customer.

That's the equivalent of getting a note from your mammy. It won't work.

Insurers who choose to insist on a VAT number to write a policy are unlikely to waiver from it, as to do so opens them up to accusations of discrimination

Bottom lines is that if you declare any material facts to an insurer, they are entitled to ask you to verify it in a format they can rely on. This became a major issue for insuers when the recession hit and loads of people with commercial vehicles started to use them as "man with a van"

elperello

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

That's the equivalent of getting a note from your mammy. It won't work.

Insurers who choose to insist on a VAT number to write a policy are unlikely to waiver from it, as to do so opens them up to accusations of discrimination

Bottom lines is that if you declare any material facts to an insurer, they are entitled to ask you to verify it in a format they can rely on. This became a major issue for insuers when the recession hit and loads of people with commercial vehicles started to use them as "man with a van"

Nice humorous analogy but not really the same.

Your broker is a professional experienced in the insurance business. They will know which companies to seek quotes from to suit your requirements.

Of course insurance companies who insist on a VAT number for all commercial policies won't deviate from that position. It's the brokers job to find one that will insure a genuine business without one.

You are correct that the insurance companies are entitled to verify information.

Eggs For Dinner

Your earlier post suggested your broker would be able to vouch for you and thus get you a quote. You are correct that a broker should know insurers who dont require a VAT number.

elperello

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

Your earlier post suggested your broker would be able to vouch for you and thus get you a quote. You are correct that a broker should know insurers who dont require a VAT number.

Sorry I phrased that badly.
I meant to convey that the broker would accept your bona fides and contact the appropriate companies on your behalf.

Del2005

elperello wrote: »

Nice humorous analogy but not really the same.

Your broker is a professional experienced in the insurance business. They will know which companies to seek quotes from to suit your requirements.

Of course insurance companies who insist on a VAT number for all commercial policies won't deviate from that position. It's the brokers job to find one that will insure a genuine business without one.

You are correct that the insurance companies are entitled to verify information.

I've found brokers to be useless for anything that's not a standard car or policy.

I've a Lexus GS450h and every year I check all the different companies for quotes. Last year I tried all the brokers and companies and most brokers wouldn't quote online or on the phone. Best was one poor call centre operator when my call back got through to their line, they were flustered when my details came up as "no quote" even though they'd called me back.

elperello

Del2005 wrote: »

I've found brokers to be useless for anything that's not a standard car or policy.

I've a Lexus GS450h and every year I check all the different companies for quotes. Last year I tried all the brokers and companies and most brokers wouldn't quote online or on the phone. Best was one poor call centre operator when my call back got through to their line, they were flustered when my details came up as "no quote" even though they'd called me back.

I'm sure there are useless insurance brokers out there but if you can find a good one they provide a great service.

I'm lucky enough to be dealing with a "bricks and mortar" brokers office staffed by people who know their job with a hands on owner/CEO.

They broker my home and business policies as well as motor and I find the service second to none.

Del2005

elperello wrote: »

I'm sure there are useless insurance brokers out there but if you can find a good one they provide a great service.

I'm lucky enough to be dealing with a "bricks and mortar" brokers office staffed by people who know their job with a hands on owner/CEO.

They broker my home and business policies as well as motor and I find the service second to none.

I tried every broker I could find online. If you have a normal car then brokers might be OK but anything unique or powerful and the brokers can't do much if the companies won't quote, as the OP and I have found out.

Eggs For Dinner

Del2005 wrote: »

I tried every broker I could find online. If you have a normal car then brokers might be OK but anything unique or powerful and the brokers can't do much if the companies won't quote, as the OP and I have found out.

There are literally 100's of brokers out there and the reason they are all in business is because most have access to a market the others don't

Brokers who rely on online quoting only feed in to the standard insurers quote engines. As elperello stated, knowledgeable staff in a bricks and mortar operation have a lot to offer

Henry Ford III

What's the VAT turnover limit?

elperello

Henry Ford III wrote: »

What's the VAT turnover limit?

€37,500 for services and €75,000 for goods.
Couple of other categories as well.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/vat/vat-registration/who-should-register-for-vat/what-are-the-vat-thresholds.aspx

Henry Ford III

elperello wrote: »

€37,500 for services and €75,000 for goods.
Couple of other categories as well.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/vat/vat-registration/who-should-register-for-vat/what-are-the-vat-thresholds.aspx

How could anyone run a business (such as the O.P's) with a turnover of less than €37500?

The average wage (equivalent to profit not turnover) is €40,000

elperello

Henry Ford III wrote: »

How could anyone run a business (such as the O.P's) with a turnover of less than €37500?

The average wage (equivalent to profit not turnover) is €40,000

I don't know.
Perhaps they will come back and explain.