Falsely accused of banging on ceiling

TiredOfNoise

We live in an apartment block that transmits impact noise very well. The apartment above us is rental. It has hardwood floors and tiles in the hallway and bathrooms. Occupants change frequently and all of them produce impact noise, I guess when walking barefoot. But most of them were tolerable, so we did not complain. Recently a family with a small child moved in, and they are producing a lot of noise as the child is running all the time. We tried to talk to them politely but nothing changed.

We complained to the management company and the rental agency. The rental agency came back saying that the tenants are accusing us of banging on the ceiling with a stick. It is a lie. We are not doing it and never did. We feel they made up this story to retaliate. But how can we manage this situation if they keep accusing us? It is our word against theirs.

Any advice is appreciated!

Doop

record them making and send it to the agency

Either that or start banging on the ceiling...

TheBoyConor

It doesn't need to be managed. Don't worry about it and you have nothing to fear. It is next to practically impossible to evict a tenant even when there are gross abuses of the contract and rampant antisocial and violent behaviour. The chances of them actually having any tangible impact on the security of your tenancy is miniscule.

Just pay no heed.

JeffKenna

You should stop banging on the ceiling. I highly doubt they lied.

punisher5112

What does the management rules state about flooring.

We were in a rental exactly like that, we took shoes off, had a young child and didn't go unnecessarily banging around and we got complaints from below.

Sound proofing is a must and could be something worth looking into, we could hear the pumps all through the night too.

TiredOfNoise

We asked if they can put carpets in the hallway but the rental agency told us it is not going to happen. Not sure where can we get more information about the rules?

The sound proofing in this building is kind of weird. Absolutely no airborne noise, but impact noise comes from everywhere. It looks like the walls are empty inside.

punisher5112

TiredOfNoise wrote: »

We asked if they can put carpets in the hallway but the rental agency told us it is not going to happen. Not sure where can we get more information about the rules?

The sound proofing in this building is kind of weird. Absolutely no airborne noise, but impact noise comes from everywhere. It looks like the walls are empty inside.

Do you own the apartment?

If yes then you should be part of the management.
AGM held you need to be involved.

You need to seek the rules and regs for the complex.

TiredOfNoise

Yes, we own the apartment. We will ask the management company. The rental agency was quite dismissive, they said no carpets will be installed, no matter what.

Is there a point to get a solicitor involved at the stage? Will they be able to do anything with respect to this accusation?

Sleepy

TiredOfNoise wrote: »

Yes, we own the apartment. We will ask the management company. The rental agency was quite dismissive, they said no carpets will be installed, no matter what.

Is there a point to get a solicitor involved at the stage? Will they be able to do anything with respect to this accusation?

The management company is your first port of call here. There may already be rules in place that you can get them to force upon the rental agency. Remember: the rental agency really don't give a **** about you. You're not their client. If their client (the owner) starts receiving letters from the Management Company about anti-social behaviour from his/her tenants, or notice that (s)he's failing to comply with building rules by having hard-wood or tiled floors etc. the agency will have to jump to his/her instructions. You're utterly wasting your time in even trying to deal with the agency, they're nothing more than a rent collection service in the vast majority of cases.

Either get in touch with the property owner, or get on the board of the management company and try to focus them on getting some proper sound-proofing put in. You might actually be able to do this in your own apartment if there's adequate ceiling height to install sound insulation etc. though again, you'll probably need to run any such work past the management company anyway.

Baby01032012

Be careful of use of words. Management company is the owners management company of which op is one. Nothing much the OMC can do other than advise owner of other apartment there is a complaint.

Go to the agent managing that particular apartment and do in writing. If no joy take a third party case to the Rtb.

punisher5112

TiredOfNoise wrote: »

Yes, we own the apartment. We will ask the management company. The rental agency was quite dismissive, they said no carpets will be installed, no matter what.

Is there a point to get a solicitor involved at the stage? Will they be able to do anything with respect to this accusation?

Honestly the counter claim against you won't go anywhere unless you all have deep pockets and go legal.

We had this, the woman under did actually bang, unfortunately it's part and parcel of living in crap built apartment....

If I were planning on staying and there were people above I would be fitting acoustic sound proofing.

corks finest

punisher5112 wrote: »

What does the management rules state about flooring.

We were in a rental exactly like that, we took shoes off, had a young child and didn't go unnecessarily banging around and we got complaints from below.

Sound proofing is a must and could be something worth looking into, we could hear the pumps all through the night too.

Yes same happened to my niece,Shanakiel Cork last year, unemployed party animals underneath took exception to an 18 mth moving around,drew a weapon ,court case upcoming- despite them insulating ( flat carpet tiles underneath wooden flooring) the original builder's didn't insulate against noise at all,no excuse for the nasties underneath but if we have to live in near proximity to each other building spec has to improve ( co op owns it AFAIK,some type of housing association anyway)

corks finest

TiredOfNoise wrote: »

We asked if they can put carpets in the hallway but the rental agency told us it is not going to happen. Not sure where can we get more information about the rules?

The sound proofing in this building is kind of weird. Absolutely no airborne noise, but impact noise comes from everywhere. It looks like the walls are empty inside.

If going to stay longtime insulation required, doesent have to cost thousands,out a few rugs) carpets down

TiredOfNoise

We would be happy to install additional insulation but from reading this and other forums it looks like there is no real solution to impact noise. We talked to the builders and they swear that there is already a sound insulation layer. Not sure what else could be done if not to eliminate but at least reduce impact noise to acceptable levels.

My concern is that instead of a constructive discussion with the OMC or whoever can do something about it there will be these false counter claims (which is probably a smart tactic on their part). How can one prove that they are not banging on the ceiling?

TheBoyConor

The builders you spoke to are just fobbing you off with some words they think you want to hear. The person you spoke to probably havent even got a clue what the makeup of the building is and probably had no part in it at all.

Graham

OP, I think you are at an advantage here as you can ultimately make a 3rd party complaint to the RTB. That's not an option that's open to your neighbours.

https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/dispute-resolution/third-party-dispute-resolution-services/

TiredOfNoise

Thank you, Graham, did not know about that!

Ginger83

TiredOfNoise wrote: »

We would be happy to install additional insulation but from reading this and other forums it looks like there is no real solution to impact noise. We talked to the builders and they swear that there is already a sound insulation layer. Not sure what else could be done if not to eliminate but at least reduce impact noise to acceptable levels.

My concern is that instead of a constructive discussion with the OMC or whoever can do something about it there will be these false counter claims (which is probably a smart tactic on their part). How can one prove that they are not banging on the ceiling?

A builder will tell you anything to fob you off.

We had work done and it was brought to our attention that the walls do not comply with min regulations. The builder gave us info that showed they comply on paper.

Just had a surveyor check them and guess what...they do not comply

Cuddlesworth

corks finest wrote: »

Yes same happened to my niece,Shanakiel Cork last year, unemployed party animals underneath took exception to an 18 mth moving around,drew a weapon ,court case upcoming- despite them insulating ( flat carpet tiles underneath wooden flooring) the original builder's didn't insulate against noise at all,no excuse for the nasties underneath but if we have to live in near proximity to each other building spec has to improve ( co op owns it AFAIK,some type of housing association anyway)

Every apartment from the late 90's has a no solid/wooden flooring clause in the lease that I have come across. And every apartment I have been in built since the late 90's has had wooden floors. And in almost every case, those floors were fitted by the cheapest quote they could get. And you see the owners look you in the eye and say the apartments around us are very noisy. The stupidity of those people has no bounds.

If you want to instal a wooden floor in apartments, thick good quality underlay is the start. But the most important aspect is the floors have to be "floating". They touch nothing but themselves and the underlay. . That means either installing trim round the edges, or lifting the skirting to slide the floor 2-3mm just under. All of that costs time, skill and money.

Impact causes vibration, which travels through the material. Once that cheap ass wooden floor is laid down, slammed up against the wall, it's like a microphone into the walls of the surrounding apartments, with their ceilings and walls acting like giant speakers. All the underlay/carpet tile(which is horrific, carpet tile is near solid?) won't stop that happening. Well, maybe the carpet tile will, since most will just go straight into the concrete floor without needing the wall there.

Yellow_Fern

TiredOfNoise wrote: »

Yes, we own the apartment. We will ask the management company. The rental agency was quite dismissive, they said no carpets will be installed, no matter what.

Is there a point to get a solicitor involved at the stage? Will they be able to do anything with respect to this accusation?

When was it built?

TiredOfNoise wrote: »

We would be happy to install additional insulation but from reading this and other forums it looks like there is no real solution to impact noise. We talked to the builders and they swear that there is already a sound insulation layer. Not sure what else could be done if not to eliminate but at least reduce impact noise to acceptable levels.
?

I would have thought they were wrong to be negative but I dont know a lot about the area. I think Soound insulation is very technical and you have to get the detail right so maybe these builders just had bad experience in the past. There are quite knowledgeably people in the construction sub. I am quite sure the people above you are in the best position to apply insulation but you can reduce noise from your side but it is harder and you may lose more space than if done from above.

Caranica

Do a search on this forum for wooden floors. There was a poster a few years ago who had the same problem and iirc ended up taking the management company/agent to court. It was a lengthy process but I'm pretty sure they won in the end.

Arklow10

I would go for acoustic insulation - recommended and installation oversight by an acoustic engineer. Not normal fixing to achieve optimum noise reduction. Impact noise is difficult to ameliorate

cyrano54

On things that worked for us as we are in a similar situation as the OP, is to politely but repeatedly engage with the tenants above us and keep a constructive and direct dialog.

It is not always possible and some tenants will ignore you and continue to be inconsiderate. But so far it has been tolerable. We even had recently a family with 2 kids and they have been quieter than any of the previous tenants.

If you can't convince them to put rugs (a tenant will never carpet the place) you should suggest sleepers or soft sole shoes. I really do not understand this obsession of walking barefoot (or with socks) on a hardwood floor at 5 in the morning ... Some people can walk quietly barefoot but most people don't without even realizing it.

Other approaches are:
House rules around noise. In our block no noise should be heard from 11pm to 7am so thatmight help at night. The OMC can enforce this.
During the day it might help to invide one or two directors of the OMC to hear the noise for themselves...

The agent managing the renting of the apartment do not care and it seems standard practice to just push back on the complainer.
We got the OMC to test the sound proofing between the two apartments and it was not as good as some of the other apartment but still within the norm. This can also be an argument. If the appartment is insulated then surely any noise heard should be avoidable by the tenant so back to the tenant to be considerate for their neighbour.

If nothing of the above works and the tenant is staying then you might want to consider additional sound proofing or selling...

How did you hold your missus up there?
no more nails or some sort of harness?

TSQ

cyrano54 wrote: »

If nothing of the above works and the tenant is staying then you might want to consider additional sound proofing or selling...

Is there ceiling soundproofing you can retrofit to mitigate sounds from floor above?

Yellow_Fern

TSQ wrote: »

Is there ceiling soundproofing you can retrofit to mitigate sounds from floor above?

Yes. But it can involve loss of space. Easier to solve it from above. That been said. It is much easier to achieve that to stop sounds going to the floor from below.