Management Fees Small Claims Court

mcgragger

Hi All.
Looking for some guidance here.

In short the estate management company is threatening to take me to court for non payment.

I've heard from an ex director that there are things amiss within the company.

The "owner" takes 40% of the total fee as payment.
45% of the remainder go on other ops costs including postage when they hand deliver every piece of mail.

Only 15% goes on upkeep.

I've asked for a copy of all financial info including access to audited accounts etc but not been given to me.
I've asked for an explanation to the postage fee charged when no stamps exist.
I've also been told that the fund from our houses is used to pay for bins for apartments across the street.

Ive no problem paying if I feel that the money is going on my estate. But I feel its lining a pocket and all I see is the grass getting cut.

So I've had a couple of letters now.... the last one seems to be a hand delivered letter again.... which seems to be a claim register at a local court for the amount.
Which is actually incorrect now as I paid 100e last month by a SO that I never shut down


The letter is dated 20th Jan but was only dropped in the letterbox last night.

It says I'm a Business Man. I'm not.
It says I'm the lease holder. I'm not I've a mortgage.
It says I must pay the solicitors the amount plus fees or go to court.

Plus the owner of the company owns several houses in the estate.

So should I go to court ? Is there enough technicalities there for a judge to throw it out.

I want to pay but I'm refusing to until we get clarity on where the money is going.

Anyone got an opinion on this?

splinter65

If you’ve entered into a contract with “Mr A Ltd” to provide you with a service in return for €100 per month then you can’t later on impose further conditions on the €100.
That’s what you’re doing. You’re saying “I’m only going to pay the €100 if you provide me with proof of what you did with the last €100 I gave you”.
Did you get what you agreed to pay for or not?

mcgragger

splinter65 wrote: »

If you’ve entered into a contract with “Mr A Ltd” to provide you with a service in return for €100 per month then you can’t later on impose further conditions on the €100.
That’s what you’re doing. You’re saying “I’m only going to pay the €100 if you provide me with proof of what you did with the last €100 I gave you”.
Did you get what you agreed to pay for or not?

Just for a little more context I'm in the house 12 years and I used to pay but as time went on I'm getting more annoyed by the apparent lack of clarity about where the money is going and no answer to the questions.

Is there even a contract I don't actually know. I bought the house from a local estate agent and soon after an invoice dropped in the door for fees.
I've never even met them

dubrov

Did you go to the last AGM?
A lot of what you have written is all rumour with some things defintely incorrect.

The managing agent is obliged to give you a copy of this year's budget.
Request it via e-mail.

mcgragger

dubrov wrote: »

Did you go to the last AGM?
A lot of what you have written is all rumour with some things defintely incorrect.

The managing agent is obliged to give you a copy of this year's budget.
Request it via e-mail.

Yeah I got the budget. But no access to audits.
I've asked what the fees are for. The fund seems to cut the grass. Most of the money is spent on fees to run the company with only grass cutting as an obvious service.
Theres 1000e for postage but every piece of correspondence is hand delivered. I've kept them.

Lantus

Do you have proof to back up these assertions? Do the accounts show payments made to director? Is the director also the estate contractor??

Most of your answers will be within a few documents. Articles of association, your contract lease and the odce guide to management companies.

Issues like payments to directors and apportionments etc.

There are scant few things you can enforce outside of court and you cannot demand proof on current running costs.

Where members are not paying directors will need to make tough choices using limited funds to meet critical service needs, bins may well be important.

Just because there is no stamp on your letter does not mean stamps are not used for company business or members who live elsewhere or to pay someone to deliver.

Eire Go Brach

40% is a lot for management agent fees.
Have you ever actually went to an AGM? You employ them as an agent to manage your property.

I would suggest you speak to other owners. If they feel the same. Get rid of them. You can always become a director yourself as well. But you will need to pay your fees. Would you stop paying your ESB? As it’s the same thing.

Lantus

mcgragger wrote: »

Yeah I got the budget. But no access to audits.
I've asked what the fees are for. The fund seems to cut the grass. Most of the money is spent on fees to run the company with only grass cutting as an obvious service.
Theres 1000e for postage but every piece of correspondence is hand delivered. I've kept them.

Audited accounts must be produced every year and provided to members prior to agm to agree on. They will be on the cro website to download for a few euro. You will only get audited accounts for the last complete accounting period.

What is the development size, services and annual fee??

Lantus

Just on your thread title does the letter state the small claims court or are you just writing that. There is no legal mechanism to recover fees in that court. Its the circuit / district (can't recall which off top of head) for contract enforcement and debt recovery.

mcgragger

Eire Go Brach wrote: »

40% is a lot for management agent fees.
Have you ever actually went to an AGM? You employ them as an agent to manage your property.

I would suggest you speak to other owners. If they feel the same. Get rid of them. You can always become a director yourself as well. But you will need to pay your fees. Would you stop paying your ESB? As it’s the same thing.

I feel someone is on the take. The estate has apartments and houses. 2 clear funds.
Im told the houses fund is being used to pay for bins. Which is outside the scope of the service provided for the houses.
Also when queried about the professional fees i was told they were for admin. The houses fee exists to exist and by the looks of it someone is getting paid alot of money to arrange grass cutting 8 times a year in the summer.

My friends wife is an ex director and she told me as much and the reason she quit was that she was taking similar questions from plenty of other owners in the estate

mcgragger

Lantus wrote: »

Just on your thread title does the letter state the small claims court or are you just writing that. There is no legal mechanism to recover fees in that court. Its the circuit / district (can't recall which off top of head) for contract enforcement and debt recovery.

It says debt claim.
District Court area 10.

dubrov

To give you something for a comparison for a 90-odd apartment complex in Dublin City Centre, Postage and Stationary is 650 and the management agent fee is about 10% of the annual budget

mcgragger

dubrov wrote: »

To give you something for a comparison for a 90-odd apartment complex in Dublin City Centre, Postage and Stationary is 650 and the management agent fee is about 10% of the annual budget

Ours is 1000e for postage and 7000e admin fee.

Theres about 60 houses.

dubrov

mcgragger wrote: »

I feel someone is on the take. The estate has apartments and houses. 2 clear funds.
Im told the houses fund is being used to pay for bins. Which is outside the scope of the service provided for the houses.
Also when queried about the professional fees i was told they were for admin. The houses fee exists to exist and by the looks of it someone is getting paid alot of money to arrange grass cutting 8 times a year in the summer.

My friends wife is an ex director and she told me as much and the reason she quit was that she was taking similar questions from plenty of other owners in the estate

If there are apartments, there will be block insurance and pl insurance, fire alarm maintenance etc.. Have the council taken over the roads, if not there would be further PL insurance and lighting costs.

You seem to be leaving out loads of items that must be referenced in the budget

mcgragger

dubrov wrote: »

If there are apartments, there will be block insurance and pl insurance, fire alarm maintenance etc.. Have the council taken over the roads, if not there would be further PL insurance and lighting costs.

You seem to be leaving out loads of items that must be referenced in the budget

Apartments are not included in houses services.
They are separate revenue streams. So funds from houses fund shouldnt be used to pay for apartments.

There is

Admin fee
Sinking fund
Hotel hire for Agm
Audits fee
Accountant fee.
Postage fee

Grass cutting.

No work other than grass cutting gets done and its fairly cheap.

The roads are looked after by another independent that's not paid thru the management fee.

So we seem to be funding a quango as there is only a small sinking fund and grass cutting that gets a look in outside of the actual cost of existence for this fund.

Its 80/20

Samuel T. Cogley

mcgragger wrote: »

It says I'm the lease holder. I'm not I've a mortgage.

Minor point but having a mortgage doesn't dictate whether you own the property Freehold or Leasehold.

Would there be any point in reporting the company to the ODCE?

Never mind, they don't deal with the MUD act.

GM228

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Minor point but having a mortgage doesn't dictate whether you own the property Freehold or Leasehold.

Would there be any point in reporting the company to the ODCE?

http://www.odce.ie/en-gb/formsprocedures/complaintform.aspx

But surely if you have a mortgage on a leasehold you would know that was the case because IIRC you must establish a minimum 70 year leasehold remaining before getting such a mortgage.

mcgragger

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Minor point but having a mortgage doesn't dictate whether you own the property Freehold or Leasehold.

Would there be any point in reporting the company to the ODCE?

Never mind, they don't deal with the MUD act.

Does it matter that I've not actually signed a contract?
Or os it in the fabric small print of my mortgage?

Should the claimant not have to prove that I entered into an agreement with them?

Samuel T. Cogley

GM228 wrote: »

But surely if you have a mortgage on a leasehold you would know that was the case because IIRC you must establish a minimum 70 year leasehold remaining before getting such a mortgage.

Assuming the OP (and no offence intended) knows there is such a thing as leasehold, he doesn't appear to have had a solicitor that's gone into much detail with him over the in and outs of the OMC.

Samuel T. Cogley

mcgragger wrote: »

Does it matter that I've not actually signed a contract?
Or os it in the fabric small print of my mortgage?

Should the claimant not have to prove that I entered into an agreement with them?

I would assume it's a term of the lease or, and now I'm straying off what I'm sure of, a covenant in the purchase of the freehold.

Lantus

The only long term solution is new directors voted in at an agm. Existing directors must seek ré election every 3 years so not to onerous to resolve.

mcgragger

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Assuming the OP (and no offence intended) knows there is such a thing as leasehold, he doesn't appear to have had a solicitor that's gone into much detail with him over the in and outs of the OMC.

Ive had no legal advice and my knowledge is limited to a semseter of law during my Business degree. Quite high level stuff.

To be honest it's more the principle than the amount that is the issue. Id be prepared to go to court but if its likely that I'll have to pay anyway I'll have to fight them a different way.

Samuel T. Cogley

Lantus wrote: »

The only long term solution is new directors voted in at an agm. Existing directors must seek ré election every 3 years so not to onerous to resolve.

Sounds like there is an issue with the managing agent as well but not that difficult to get rid of them either.

Samuel T. Cogley

mcgragger wrote: »

Ive had no legal advice and my knowledge is limited to a semseter of law during my Business degree. Quite high level stuff.

To be honest it's more the principle than the amount that is the issue. Id be prepared to go to court but if its likely that I'll have to pay anyway I'll have to fight them a different way.

As I say no offence intended. I've a law degree and I wouldn't have a clue on most of this stuff. I was lucky in having a solicitor that would sit down and explain things on my second purchase, on the first purchase there was no explanation I was buying a lease or investigation/explanation of the OMC.

Dav010

I was on the board of directors of an OMC, the ops post is typical of the letters we would receive from owners in relation fees. Most often they did not attend AGMs, did not understand their rights and obligations, and often made allegations with no basis in reality.

Op, you are a member of the OMC, the property management agents, often an auctioneer, works for you. If you are not happy with how the OMC is being run, you say that at the AGM and propose a change. During the AGM there will be an income and expenditure discussion, again, you have the option to question spending levels and propose change. Proposals are voted on, but majority rules, unless you use your rights as a member to question any items raised at the AGM, you may be accepting the majority decision without exercising your right to object.

Section 18(10) of the Multi-Unit Developments Act 2011 places an obligation on you as an owner to pay your management fees.

Lantus

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Sounds like there is an issue with the managing agent as well but not that difficult to get rid of them either.

One may exist but without op clarification who doesn't appear to note this. A common issue with members who often confuse agent and company as one in the same.

I can't determine any issue with agent from info in this thread or why the members would want to get rid??

Samuel T. Cogley

Lantus wrote: »

I can't determine any issue with agent from info in this thread or why the members would want to get rid??

Strikes me as odd that an 'owner' is taking 40%. Sounded to me as if that's the managing agent's fee or that the original developer is still acting as the managing agent.

mcgragger

Dav010 wrote: »

I was on the board of directors of an OMC, the ops post is typical of the letters we would receive from owners in relation fees. Most often they did not attend AGMs, did not understand their rights and obligations, and often made allegations with no basis in reality.

Op, you are a member of the OMC, the property management agents, often an auctioneer, works for you. If you are not happy with how the OMC is being run, you say that at the AGM and propose a change. During the AGM there will be an income and expenditure discussion, again, you have the option to question spending levels and propose change. Proposals are voted on, but majority rules, unless you use your rights as a member to question any items raised at the AGM, you may be accepting the majority decision without exercising your right to object.

Section 18(10) of the Multi-Unit Developments Act 2011 places an obligation on you as an owner to pay your management fees.

That's fairly black and white advice. I went to one AGM and at the time i stayed quiet.
Ill bring it up at the next one

mcgragger

Lantus wrote: »

One may exist but without op clarification who doesn't appear to note this. A common issue with members who often confuse agent and company as one in the same.

I can't determine any issue with agent from info in this thread or why the members would want to get rid??

The managing agent is one person and she owns multiple houses in the complex.
I believe she set up the management company.
She is also the one that delivers the letters
The developer is long gone.

Samuel T. Cogley

mcgragger wrote: »

The managing agent is one person and she owns multiple houses in the complex.
I believe she set up the management company.
She is also the one that delivers the letters
The developer is long gone.

That's definitely the managing agent and not a director of the Owner's Management Company? Usually the directors of the OMC buy in the services of a managing agent so Harbour Apartments pay Wise Property Management to provide services.


Surely the set up you've described is a massive conflict of interest?

Lantus

mcgragger wrote: »

The managing agent is one person and she owns multiple houses in the complex.
I believe she set up the management company.
She is also the one that delivers the letters
The developer is long gone.

Managing agent and management company are two seperate legal distinct entities. Best read up.

One is the legal company called my estate company Ltd to which you and all your fellow residents are members of and the other is a service provider contracted by your company.

If she is the agent it is odd she is also a unit owner and her company must be licensed and registered to operate as a managing agent. Check the property registration services website.

You need to establish who your company directors are and who the agent is.