Property does not meet minimum standards

Adam1231

I have recently moved to a new place (first time moving out from parents). The contract was for a minimum of 12 months but after living in the apartment for a couple of weeks I noticed so many issues. The main issues for me was the bedroom and bathroom have no heaters and is extremely cold, you can hear everything from the neighbours even their phone ringing, the floors are not levelled and there’s no where to throw rubbish bags.

I spoke to the landlord and told him I wasn’t happy, he then started threatening to take me to court when I said I wanted to leave. After sometime he decides to let me go off my contract but wants me to pay for the month of March (essentially using this month as the notice period). He also said I will need to pay for the first 2 weeks that was back dated and will have to cover several other costs, basically I will not get my deposit back.

Does anyone have an advice in what I should do? Should I just pay next months rent even though I will not stay in the apartment (I’m staying in my parents house as it’s extremely cold in the apartment). From my understanding the apartment did not meet the legal minimum standard (e.g adequate heating) Making the contract void (if contract is not void correct me please). If the contract is void should I just leave the apartment and not pay for next months rent? The contract states “30 days notification is required for leaving the apartment”

davindub

Adam1231 wrote: »

I have recently moved to a new place (first time moving out from parents). The contract was for a minimum of 12 months but after living in the apartment for a couple of weeks I noticed so many issues. The main issues for me was the bedroom and bathroom have no heaters and is extremely cold, you can hear everything from the neighbours even their phone ringing, the floors are not levelled and there’s no where to throw rubbish bags.

I spoke to the landlord and told him I wasn’t happy, he then started threatening to take me to court when I said I wanted to leave. After sometime he decides to let me go off my contract but wants me to pay for the month of March (essentially using this month as the notice period). He also said I will need to pay for the first 2 weeks that was back dated and will have to cover several other costs, basically I will not get my deposit back.

Does anyone have an advice in what I should do? Should I just pay next months rent even though I will not stay in the apartment (I’m staying in my parents house as it’s extremely cold in the apartment). From my understanding the apartment did not meet the legal minimum standard (e.g adequate heating) Making the contract void (if contract is not void correct me please). If the contract is void should I just leave the apartment and not pay for next months rent?

The contract is not void but if you are breaking it the landlord can only retain amounts from the deposit to cover actual damages, so if he rents out again within a week, he should refund the deposit minus 1 week...etc.

You may have a chance to recover this, measure temperatures in the bathroom and bedroom and take a case to the RTB if he retains the deposit.

Do not pay any further rent than the period you occupy for. Maybe contact threshold to give you some proper advice?

Adam1231

davindub wrote: »

The contract is not void but if you are breaking it the landlord can only retain amounts from the deposit to cover actual damages, so if he rents out again within a week, he should refund the deposit minus 1 week...etc.

You may have a chance to recover this, measure temperatures in the bathroom and bedroom and take a case to the RTB if he retains the deposit.

Do not pay any further rent than the period you occupy for. Maybe contact threshold to give you some proper advice?

Am I not obliged to pay for next months as per the legal 28 days notice period or so? I would rather not pay and leave the apartment. Can he not take me to court for not following with the 12 month minimum lease as per contract?

I was not aware of threshold, will give them a call tomorrow. Thank you

davindub

Adam1231 wrote: »

Am I not obliged to pay for next months as per the legal 28 days notice period or so? I would rather not pay and leave the apartment. Can he not take me to court for not following with the 12 month minimum lease as per contract?

I was not aware of threshold, will give them a call tomorrow. Thank you

No he can't enforce a 12 month contract. Threshold can explain it but look up the RTB as well.

Claw Hammer

The landlord can't take you to court. He has to go to the RTB. He is most likely not registered if he is talking about court. Did he give you the BER before you took the apartment. That should have put you on notice regarding the heating.

Adam1231

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The landlord can't take you to court. He has to go to the RTB. He is most likely not registered if he is talking about court. Did he give you the BER before you took the apartment. That should have put you on notice regarding the heating.

I spoke to RTB and the worst that can happen is he can take my deposit for damages of leaving without the notice, I'm planning to take that option as he is not planning to give me back my deposit anyways from the way he was going on.

No he did not give me the BER, is he supposed to?

Adam1231

Adam1231 wrote: »

I spoke to RTB and the worst that can happen is he can take my deposit for damages of leaving without the notice, I'm planning to take that option as he is not planning to give me back my deposit anyways from the way he was showing on.

No he did not give me the BER, is he supposed to?

Though not certain, I’m pretty sure a Ber rating is required when advertising the property, but the tenant is not entitled to a copy of the certificate.

Adam1231

Dav010 wrote: »

Though not certain, I’m pretty sure a Ber rating is required when advertising the property, but the tenant is not entitled to a copy of the certificate.

This is my first time renting, is it the norm to show the BER?

Adam1231

Adam1231 wrote: »

This is my first time renting, is it the norm to show the BER?

On the ad site, yes. You can ask the LL for the Ber rating. I’m sure there was a previous thread about this and there was a link to show that it is a legal requirement to have one and display rating when advertising for rental, but it is not a requirement to provide a cert for the tenant.

Claw Hammer

It is a legal requirement to advertise the BER, unless it is a protected structure, and if is not done the letting is void so he can't keep the deposit for lack of notice. You should complain to the RTB about it.

Claw Hammer

Claw Hammer wrote: »

It is a legal requirement to advertise the BEr and if is not done the letting is void so he can't keep the deposit for lack of notice. You should complain to the RTB about it.

Is the letting void? I’m pretty sure there is a fine for not having one but if I remember from the previous thread there has never been a persecution.

Adam1231

Claw Hammer wrote: »

It is a legal requirement to advertise the BER, unless it is a protected structure, and if is not done the letting is void so he can't keep the deposit for lack of notice. You should complain to the RTB about it.

I am planning to hand over the keys tomorrow, is there any specific procedure I should follow when returning the keys?

the_syco

Adam1231 wrote: »

I am planning to hand over the keys tomorrow, is there any specific procedure I should follow when returning the keys?

Take pictures of the house, in case the landlord claims at a later stage that you did damage.

1874

davindub wrote: »

The contract is not void but if you are breaking it the landlord can only retain amounts from the deposit to cover actual damages, so if he rents out again within a week, he should refund the deposit minus 1 week...etc.

You may have a chance to recover this, measure temperatures in the bathroom and bedroom and take a case to the RTB if he retains the deposit.

Do not pay any further rent than the period you occupy for. Maybe contact threshold to give you some proper advice?

There is no legal basis to retain rent, it is not allowed, you are giving them bad advice. If there are other issues let them follow them up by all means, but there is a process for that, floors not being level or hearing the neighbours does not sound like grounds for complaint, its unfortunate but the OP has said they want to leave, they should do so correctly and formally and if their deposit is retained illegally then they should follow that up.
I would be inclined to say not having a heater in the bathroom is not contrary to the relevant legislation, its not ideal, dont know what the minimum standards are regarding the bedroom, but if the rest of the house is heated then Id hazard a guess that its not a huge problem, that said, if the tenant wants to leave a fixed term lease there are ways to do that.

Adam1231

1874 wrote: »

There is no legal basis to retain rent, it is not allowed, you are giving them bad advice. If there are other issues let them follow them up by all means, but there is a process for that, floors not being level or hearing the neighbours does not sound like grounds for complaint, its unfortunate but the OP has said they want to leave, they should do so correctly and formally and if their deposit is retained illegally then they should follow that up.
I would be inclined to say not having a heater in the bathroom is not contrary to the relevant legislation, its not ideal, dont know what the minimum standards are regarding the bedroom, but if the rest of the house is heated then Id hazard a guess that its not a huge problem, that said, if the tenant wants to leave a fixed term lease there are ways to do that.

I tried to come to terms when leaving but the landlord wasn’t happy and decided to take the majority of the deposit based on my decision to leave. I spoke to RTB and threshold and was told if I leave without 28 days notice then they can deduct any any damages caused by lack of not giving a notice from the deposit. I decided to just leave and let the landlord deduct damages from the deposit as he is not planning on giving the deposit back anyways and it saves me the hassle of trying to chase my deposit later on.

By damages I mean any financial setbacks caused, e.g if the property is not rented until 2 weeks after I leave, the landlord then has the right to deduct 2 weeks worth of rent from the deposit.

davindub

1874 wrote: »

There is no legal basis to retain rent, it is not allowed, you are giving them bad advice. If there are other issues let them follow them up by all means, but there is a process for that, floors not being level or hearing the neighbours does not sound like grounds for complaint, its unfortunate but the OP has said they want to leave, they should do so correctly and formally and if their deposit is retained illegally then they should follow that up.
I would be inclined to say not having a heater in the bathroom is not contrary to the relevant legislation, its not ideal, dont know what the minimum standards are regarding the bedroom, but if the rest of the house is heated then Id hazard a guess that its not a huge problem, that said, if the tenant wants to leave a fixed term lease there are ways to do that.

It's not retaining rent, it's not paying "rent" after the property has been surrendered back to the LL which is completely legal.

davindub

davindub wrote: »

It's not retaining rent, it's not paying "rent" after the property has been surrendered back to the LL which is completely legal.

So you are saying that legally, notice periods don’t apply? You just leave when you want and don’t pay rent during the notice period you are legally required to give under the RTA?

I’m loathe to link to the Threshold site as they are partisan in favour of tenants, but even Threshold state that rent must be paid up until the end of the notice period.

https://www.threshold.ie/advice/ending-a-tenancy/ending-your-tenancy/

davindub

Dav010 wrote: »

So you are saying that legally, notice periods don’t apply? You just leave when you want and don’t pay rent during the notice period you are legally required to give under the RTA?

I’m loathe to link to the Threshold site as they are partisan in favour of tenants, but even Threshold state that rent must be paid up until the end of the notice period.

https://www.threshold.ie/advice/ending-a-tenancy/ending-your-tenancy/

Hard to know what the copyrighter who does their website meant but I doubt threshold advocate losing a deposit and a months rent?

Pay rent for the time in occupation only. Deposit = used to compensate for lost rent whilst LL fulfills legal obligation to minimise losses by reletting quickly. This is exactly what is applied at the RTB.

In some instances a shorter notice period is reasonable which would include inhabaitable environment. If a bedroom is freezing that would be unhealthy no? The LL should not have rented this unit and he is no doubt fully aware of this, can you see the RTB awarding the LL the rent for a 28 day notice period and then deposit as well after 2 weeks of occupation? If not, there is no basis to say it should be paid.

davindub

davindub wrote: »

Hard to know what the copyrighter who does their website meant but I doubt threshold advocate losing a deposit and a months rent?

Pay rent for the time in occupation only. Deposit = used to compensate for lost rent whilst LL fulfills legal obligation to minimise losses by reletting quickly. This is exactly what is applied at the RTB.

In some instances a shorter notice period is reasonable which would include inhabaitable environment. If a bedroom is freezing that would be unhealthy no? The LL should not have rented this unit and he is no doubt fully aware of this, can you see the RTB awarding the LL the rent for a 28 day notice period and then deposit as well after 2 weeks of occupation? If not, there is no basis to say it should be paid.

All nonsense.

Deposit is not to be used by the tenant to pay last months rent.

There are clear, unambiguous statutory notice periods set out in the RTA, shorter notice can only be by agreement between both LL and tenant.

We have only the ops opinion about the temperature in the apartment, first time outside home can be a shock to the system and you would be amazed at the number of people who don’t know how to use storage heaters/thermostats.

Where does the RTB state you only pay rent while in occupation? I think you will find that it has to be paid up to end of notice period.

davindub

Dav010 wrote: »

All nonsense.

Deposit is not to be used by the tenant to pay last months rent.

There are clear, unambiguous statutory notice periods set out in the RTA, shorter notice can only be by agreement between both LL and tenant.

We have only the ops opinion about the temperature in the apartment, first time outside home can be a shock to the system and you would be amazed at the number of people who don’t know how to use storage heaters/thermostats.

Where does the RTB state you only pay rent while in occupation? I think you will find that it has to be paid up to end of notice period.

I'll leave it with you to figure out the finer points of how the legislation fits together but again rent is rent and a deposit is a deposit.

There are 0 cases at the RTB where the landlord was awarded 100% of the deposit and in addition the notice period in rent for breach of the notice periods, so that might guide you to the correct answer here.

davindub

davindub wrote: »

I'll leave it with you to figure out the finer points of how the legislation fits together but again rent is rent and a deposit is a deposit.

There are 0 cases at the RTB where the landlord was awarded 100% of the deposit and in addition the notice period in rent for breach of the notice periods, so that might guide you to the correct answer here.

That’s not what I am saying is nonsense, your opinion that the tenant can use the deposit as the last months rent is wrong, that the tenant only has to pay for the period they only occupy the property, and not the notice period is wrong as it applies to the op. The op has to give the required statutory notice, has to pay the last months rent as well. The LL returns the deposit at the end of the tenancy after inspecting the property for damage, and is required to limit loses by Re-letting as soon as possible. The deposit and any rent paid in excess of the date of reletting is then, any only then returned to the tenant. They are the finer points.

The RTB does not state the op can elect to use deposit enlieu of last months rent/notice period. The landlord can retain enlieu of rent owed, but that is not the same thing. The op would be in rent arrears and would still be liable to pay more for any damage done to the property.

Just because there isn’t any RTB cases where the tenant wasn’t adjudicated against for using deposit to cover last months rent does not make your opinion correct, a call to the RTB Im sure would confirm that you cannot use your deposit in this way. I’m also sure that there has been RTB cases where deposits did not cover damage. If tenants followed your advice, there would be no deposit at all to cover any damage done as it would have been used for rent.

As I said, you posted nonsense.

davindub

Dav010 wrote: »

That’s not what I am saying is nonsense, your opinion that the tenant can use the deposit as the last months rent is wrong, that the tenant only has to pay for the period they only occupy the property, and not the notice period is wrong as it applies to the op. The op has to give the required statutory notice, has to pay the last months rent as well. The LL returns the deposit at the end of the tenancy after inspecting the property for damage, and is required to limit loses by Re-letting as soon as possible. The deposit and any rent paid in excess of the date of reletting is then, any only then returned to the tenant. They are the finer points.

The RTB does not state the op can elect to use deposit enlieu of last months rent/notice period. The landlord can retain enlieu of rent owed, but that is not the same thing. The op would be in rent arrears and would still be liable to pay more for any damage done to the property.

Just because there isn’t any RTB cases where the tenant wasn’t adjudicated against for using deposit to cover last months rent does not make your opinion correct, a call to the RTB Im sure would confirm that you cannot use your deposit in this way. I’m also sure that there has been RTB cases where deposits did not cover damage. If tenants followed your advice, there would be no deposit at all to cover any damage done as it would have been used for rent.

As I said, you posted nonsense.

You can't distinguish between a tenant not paying rent but using the deposit instead and using it to compensate a LL for lack of notice?

What do you think happens if the op doesn't pay rent for the notice period, they go to prison? Look I'll leave it at that, but you might take care to read the RTA and get some knowledge of what you are talking about before calling "nonsense", this is far too basic to be making this kind of mistake.

Graham

Mod Note

davindub, quit the trolling.

davindub

<MOD SNIP>

beauf

davindub wrote: »

You can't distinguish between a tenant not paying rent but using the deposit instead and using it to compensate a LL for lack of notice?

....

It's all on their website...

https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/beginning-a-tenancy/deposits/

Adam1231

UPDATE: I handed the keys and everything was fine, landlord said he will get back to me with the deposit after the cleaning service. He’s now asking for my PPS number , from reading online he would need my PPS number to register me with the RTB as a tenant. Why do you think he wants my PPS Number at this stage and should I give it to him?

beauf

The LL doesn't need the PPS but there is space for it on the form. You could ask the PRTB for clarification.
He might need it because you're not registered, maybe he didn't do it, or perhaps it wasn't processed properly. Computer glitches etc.
He has to inform them, he taking the deposit and might need to open a dispute to do so. Not sure of the details.
He might be doing all of the above in case you open a dispute.

Adam1231

beauf wrote: »

The LL doesn't need the PPS but there is space for it on the form. You could ask the PRTB for clarification.
He might need it because you're not registered, maybe he didn't do it, or perhaps it wasn't processed properly. Computer glitches etc.
He has to inform them, he taking the deposit and might need to open a dispute to do so. Not sure of the details.
He might be doing all of the above in case you open a dispute.

I asked why does he want it and he said to register me for the month I was there. Do you think I should give it to him or not? Not sure what to do.

MacDanger

Adam1231 wrote: »

UPDATE: I handed the keys and everything was fine, landlord said he will get back to me with the deposit after the cleaning service. He’s now asking for my PPS number , from reading online he would need my PPS number to register me with the RTB as a tenant. Why do you think he wants my PPS Number at this stage and should I give it to him?

Not sure on the PPS number, but why are you paying for a cleaning service? Did you not clean the place before leaving?

Adam1231

MacDanger wrote: »

Not sure on the PPS number, but why are you paying for a cleaning service? Did you not clean the place before leaving?

No I did clean the apartment very well, he just sent me a text saying he’ll get back to me with the deposit once he’s done with the cleaning service. He’s now saying he needs my PPS it as it’s the law to have me registered but I can tell he’s trying to play it safe and register incase I open a dispute or maybe he wants to open a dispute.

beauf

I'm almost certain, you can register people without their PPS. Perhaps he doesn't realize this.
He probably doesn't know the rules about retain a deposit for leaving early as he probably planning on keeping it anyway.
Tenant doesn't pay for normal cleaning at the end of a tenancy.

Both the OP (tenant) and the LL should really spend a bit of time with the rules and regulations. This is all basic stuff.

MacDanger

Adam1231 wrote: »

No I did clean the apartment very well, he just sent me a text saying he’ll get back to me with the deposit once he’s done with the cleaning service. He’s now saying he needs my PPS it as it’s the law to have me registered but I can tell he’s trying to play it safe and register incase I open a dispute or maybe he wants to open a dispute.

If you returned the house in the same state of cleanliness that you received it, then he's not entitled to charge you for a cleaning service. If he does, ask for a receipt for the cleaning and also photos of the addiitonal cleaning that was required. Open a case with the RTB if you're not satisfied with what he's asking you to pay

beauf

If he retaining the deposit anyway, doesn't really matter.

Adam1231

I recently moved to an apartment and left after 1 month due to the conditions of the property. Such as the bedroom/bathroom having no heaters, there’s no where to dispose garbage and being able to hear everything from the neighbours (such as their phone ringing). I am aware of the legal 28 days notice period but couldn’t stay any longer so I only gave 3 days notice.

The landlord is now asking for my PPS, 45 days after I signed the lease and left. Turns out he didn’t register with the RTB and wants to register. When I said I won’t send it his response was “it’s the law I have to register”. He is doing it to either open a dispute or incase I open a dispute as I said I would open a dispute when he refused to give me back my deposit. I am aware that due to not giving a sufficient notice he can deduct financial setbacks caused but he decided to keep it all without assessing anything.

I would like some advice on whether I should give him my PPS at this stage or not.

Zulu

Give him your PPS and stop being awkward.

In any potential dispute, or RTP review do you think your refusal is going to appear anything more than belligerent?

Adam1231

beauf wrote: »

I'm almost certain, you can register people without their PPS. Perhaps he doesn't realize this.
He probably doesn't know the rules about retain a deposit for leaving early as he probably planning on keeping it anyway.
Tenant doesn't pay for normal cleaning at the end of a tenancy.

Both the OP (tenant) and the LL should really spend a bit of time with the rules and regulations. This is all basic stuff.

“Tenants don’t pay for cleaning at end of tenancy” does this apply in my case where I left after 30 days?

Samuel T. Cogley

I wouldnt give it to him and I'd open a dispute of the place didn't meet minimum standards. You can register with the RTB without the tenants PPS although its strongly recommended to supply it.

beauf

All this info is online.

https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/ending-a-tenancy/what-happens-at-the-end-of-a-tenancy/
https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/during-a-tenancy/wear-and-tear/

Zulu

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

I wouldn't give it to him

Why?

and I'd open a dispute of the place didn't meet minimum standards.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but did something in the original post suggest the min standards weren't being met? Indeed, other than the sound, is there any "issue" present that couldn't have been/shouldn't have been identified by viewing the property in advance?

Surely the best advice we can provide is to only use the RTB as a measure of last recourse?

Samuel T. Cogley

Zulu wrote: »

Why?

Because it can be used to assist in finding the tenant if there is a dispute, there is nothing gained by the OP by giving it to him other than to help the LL pursue him for lost rent and I don't feel the tenant is in the wrong here.

Zulu wrote: »

Perhaps I'm missing something, but did something in the original post suggest the min standards weren't being met? Indeed, other than the sound, is there any "issue" present that couldn't have been/shouldn't have been identified by viewing the property in advance?

Adam1231 wrote: »

Such as the bedroom/bathroom having no heaters, there’s no where to dispose garbage...

From Citizen's Advice:


Extra requirements from July 2017

With effect from 1 July 2017, when the Housing (Standards for Rented Houses) Regulations 2017 came into force, landlords must ensure that:

There is a permanently fixed heater in each bathroom/shower room and these heaters are properly ventilated and maintained

In addition to heaters being required in all habitable spaces e.g. bedrooms

Zulu wrote: »

Surely the best advice we can provide is to only use the RTB as a measure of last recourse?

It's a dispute resolution mechanism and there is a dispute here. If the minimum standards are not being me it's my opinion the LL should not be retaining the deposit. I accept other people may think differently.

Graham

Mod Note

Threads Merged

fishy_fishy

Alternatively, he might be trying to register it so that he can claim the mortgage interest as a tax deductible expense. Only allowed if he registers the tenancy (which he's correct to do).

Samuel T. Cogley

fishy_fishy wrote: »

Alternatively, he might be trying to register it so that he can claim the mortgage interest as a tax deductible expense. Only allowed if he registers the tenancy (which he's correct to do).

He can still do that without the PPSN. It's not a requirement to register.

fishy_fishy

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

He can still do that without the PPSN. It's not a requirement to register.

Never said it was a requirement, but people behaving like there are sinister ulterior motives for the LL wanting to register the tenancy when the most likely reason is two-fold: 1. He has to, and 2. He needs to if he wants to claim mortgage interest relief.

Also, OP, I'm curious - did you view in person before letting it? I'm not saying you're wrong that it doesn't meet minimum standards, but you did rent it as is.

Claw Hammer

fishy_fishy wrote: »

Also, OP, I'm curious - did you view in person before letting it? I'm not saying you're wrong that it doesn't meet minimum standards, but you did rent it as is.

It is completely irrelevant that the o/p took the property as is. The landlord is obliged to comply with the regulations and the landlord and tenant can't contract out of the regulations. I have seen a case where a tenant bought their own fridge and the landlord was told to supply a different one because the one the tenant bought didn't comply with the regulations.

spaceHopper

Does he have your home address or any way to trace you, if no then no don't give it to him, he has 30 days to register the tenancy and you left early so tell him to call it quits and you won't bother him if he doesn't bother you.