Right to a teacher?

expectationlost

Do students have a right to a teacher? It seems not, why not? Should there be, how can I get it changed?


Was left without a teacher for 5 weeks and the substitute was trying to teach his own class, so substitution was irregular, erratic and insufficient.


Teacher seem to have lots of employments rights while students seem to have no rights

05eaftqbrs9jlh

expectationlost wrote: »

Do students have a right to a teacher? It seems not why not. Should there be, how can I get it changed?


Was left without a teacher for 5 weeks and the substitute was trying to teach his own class, so substitution was irregular, erratic and insufficient.


Teacher seem to have lots of employments rights and students seem to have none.

My maths teacher promptly informed us on the first day of fifth year that she expected everyone to be dropped down to pass before Christmas. She got pregnant for the fourth time, which delayed her plight, but during November of sixth year she came back and there were three of us still in the class. She refused to teach us.

I tried to learn the curriculum myself and paid for my own grinds but she refused to answer any questions I had. I got a low D in my Pre and had to face the music. I'm still bitterly disappointed that I didn't do Honours maths. I love maths now and have learned a lot since leaving school. I would actually be able to do the Honours LC now and make a better hand of it due to my personal studies in the subject.

I'm a special needs school teacher myself at primary level, but many students of ours do the sixth class maths curriculum so when I was teaching that I had to have an in depth understanding which has made it important for me to know the reasons and explanations to be able to explain to the kids. But to this day I wonder why teachers like that can exist.

You can actually report a teacher through www.teachingcouncil.ie but it's really a last resort if you get no satisfaction from attempting to address the issues in person.

KaneToad

Rebecca Deafening Beam wrote: »

. She got pregnant for the fourth time...

Outrageous. What was she thinking...

expectationlost

Rebecca Deafening Beam wrote: »

My maths teacher promptly informed us on the first day of fifth year that she expected everyone to be dropped down to pass before Christmas. She got pregnant for the fourth time, which delayed her plight, but during November of sixth year she came back and there were three of us still in the class. She refused to teach us.

I tried to learn the curriculum myself and paid for my own grinds but she refused to answer any questions I had. I got a low D in my Pre and had to face the music. I'm still bitterly disappointed that I didn't do Honours maths. I love maths now and have learned a lot since leaving school. I would actually be able to do the Honours LC now and make a better hand of it due to my personal studies in the subject.

I'm a special needs school teacher myself at primary level, but many students of ours do the sixth class maths curriculum so when I was teaching that I had to have an in depth understanding which has made it important for me to know the reasons and explanations to be able to explain to the kids. But to this day I wonder why teachers like that can exist.

You can actually report a teacher through www.teachingcouncil.ie but it's really a last resort if you get no satisfaction from attempting to address the issues in person.

I was inviting a rant about a particular teacher, nor talking about complaining about a particular teacher, I was asking about general rights.

05eaftqbrs9jlh

expectationlost wrote: »

:rolleyes:
I was inviting a rant about a particular teacher, nor talking about complaining about a particular teacher, I was asking about general rights.

I obviously didn't really follow what you're asking for. I mean, other than reporting an individual teacher you don't have much recourse as far as I know.

Students have the right to an education under the UDHR. But the parameters of what that includes are on a case by case.

spurious

expectationlost wrote: »

Do students have a right to a teacher? It seems not, why not? Should there be, how can I get it changed?

Of course you should have a teacher. I doubt your school did not try to employ someone.

Was left without a teacher for 5 weeks and the substitute was trying to teach his own class, so substitution was irregular, erratic and insufficient.

Your sub teacher has his own classes at the same time as yours? That would be strange.
There is a severe shortage of subs in some subjects. In the Dublin area, subbing does not pay enough to cover Dublin rents, so applications for such posts can be few.

Teacher seem to have lots of employments rights while students seem to have no rights

Not sure what employment rights for teachers have to do with this. The problem is small hours contracts and a shortage of teachers in certain subjects in certain areas.

expectationlost

spurious wrote: »

Of course you should have a teacher. I doubt your school did not try to employ someone.



Your sub teacher has his own classes at the same time as yours? That would be strange.
There is a severe shortage of subs in some subjects. In the Dublin area, subbing does not pay enough to cover Dublin rents, so applications for such posts can be few.



Not sure what employment rights for teachers have to do with this. The problem is small hours contracts and a shortage of teachers in certain subjects in certain areas.

thanks for the reply.



This is why Im asking about rights, I don't think "trying" is good enough I want to know what right I have a teacher, maybe if it were legislated for then it might force people at various levels to act, to ensure that I do have a full time in-class teacher as expected.

expectationlost

Rebecca Deafening Beam wrote: »

I obviously didn't really follow what you're asking for. I mean, other than reporting an individual teacher you don't have much recourse as far as I know.

Students have the right to an education under the UDHR. But the parameters of what that includes are on a case by case.

the Universal part of that suggests that they are certain rules that can apply to many people at once, that rules perhaps in the form of legislation can be written to address issues that affect people as individuals and collectively.

Canard

To be fair, while I agree with your point that it isn't acceptable to have such dire shortages, what do you expect a school to do? If they can't find a teacher, they can't find one, and as far as I know the rates of pay are set by the government, so the school couldn't even offer a premium if they wanted to.

expectationlost

Canard wrote: »

To be fair, while I agree with your point that it isn't acceptable to have such dire shortages, what do you expect a school to do? If they can't find a teacher, they can't find one, and as far as I know the rates of pay are set by the government, so the school couldn't even offer a premium if they wanted to.

Im suggesting changing the legislation so that they can, that a right to teacher means that if needs be, they can pay more, that the right to a teacher trumps cost considerations.

NSAman

First time I ever told an adult to F*** O** was to a teacher. I was young and knew I had to repeat the leaving.

I did nothing for the last year of school and knew I had to repeat.

I was told I was not intelligent enough to do honours in all subjects by said teacher, she refused to let me into her Honours class.

I replied “well F*** Off, I’ll do it myself”.

Luckily, I approached another teacher who helped and tutored me while I did it myself in his class. Sitting there, studying and asking questions once I had any. Other teachers also let me do the same in their classes, acting as tutors and giving guidance when I needed it.

I can honestly say the majority of teachers were fantastic.

Come results time walking into the school that day, who did I meet but Ms. F*** O**.. who quipped, “I suppose you failed again” .. I replied..”of course, sure wouldn’t I have succeeded with you?” Got my results, second that year all honours mostly A’s and one B.

If you want something, there is always a way to do it yourself. Teachers for the most part are helpful, especially if they see someone motivated.

expectationlost

NSAman wrote: »

First time I ever told an adult to F*** O** was to a teacher. I was young and knew I had to repeat the leaving.

I did nothing for the last year of school and knew I had to repeat.

I was told I was not intelligent enough to do honours in all subjects by said teacher, she refused to let me into her Honours class.

I replied “well F*** Off, I’ll do it myself”.

Luckily, I approached another teacher who helped and tutored me while I did it myself in his class. Sitting there, studying and asking questions once I had any. Other teachers also let me do the same in their classes, acting as tutors and giving guidance when I needed it.

I can honestly say the majority of teachers were fantastic.

Come results time walking into the school that day, who did I meet but Ms. F*** O**.. who quipped, “I suppose you failed again” .. I replied..”of course, sure wouldn’t I have succeeded with you?” Got my results, second that year all honours mostly A’s and one B.

If you want something, there is always a way to do it yourself. Teachers for the most part are helpful, especially if they see someone motivated.

you don't go to a school to do something by yourself, the point is to go a be taught.

spurious

Technically you go to be educated, which is slightly different, but anyway, if the lack of sub goes on, you should write to the department and insist they organise a teacher for you, since you in good faith entered a 2 year course expecting to have a teacher throughout the course.

expectationlost

spurious wrote: »

Technically you go to be educated, which is slightly different, but anyway, if the lack of sub goes on, you should write to the department and insist they organise a teacher for you, since you in good faith entered a 2 year course expecting to have a teacher throughout the course.

Head says he is doing his best, I don't think its his best, his best would be to provide a teacher anything less then that is not best.

spurious

expectationlost wrote:

Head says he is doing his best, I don't think its his best, his best would be to provide a teacher anything less then that is not best.

So write to the Minister and demand one.

randylonghorn

expectationlost wrote: »

Head says he is doing his best, I don't think its his best, his best would be to provide a teacher anything less then that is not best.

In fairness, that's like saying to a runner "if you're not winning the gold medal in the Olympics, you're not doing your best!"

Don't get me wrong, I have every sympathy with your situation, as I think pretty much everyone in the thread has as well.

As you get older though, you will come to realise that sometimes shít happens despite everyone's best efforts; that life isn't always fair or perfect; that passing a law won't make the sun go backwards, climate change disappear (sorry to break it to you, Mr. Trump) or teachers miraculously appear.

By all means follow up on this issue (to be left without a teacher for 5 weeks in LC years IS crazy, no argument from me!); but don't allow your anger and frustration to get in the way of doing what you can to keep up with your course, despite lack of teacher. In the end, writing "I didn't have a teacher for 5 weeks" on the end of your LC script won't get you any extra points.

Maybe it should ... in an ideal world ... but in the actual real world, it won't.

expectationlost

randylonghorn wrote: »

In fairness, that's like saying to a runner "if you're not winning the gold medal in the Olympics, you're not doing your best!"

Don't get me wrong, I have every sympathy with your situation, as I think pretty much everyone in the thread has as well.

As you get older though, you will come to realise that sometimes shít happens despite everyone's best efforts; that life isn't always fair or perfect; that passing a law won't make the sun go backwards, climate change disappear (sorry to break it to you, Mr. Trump) or teachers miraculously appear.

By all means follow up on this issue (to be left without a teacher for 5 weeks in LC years IS crazy, no argument from me!); but don't allow your anger and frustration to get in the way of doing what you can to keep up with your course, despite lack of teacher. In the end, writing "I didn't have a teacher for 5 weeks" on the end of your LC script won't get you any extra points.

Maybe it should ... in an ideal world ... but in the actual real world, it won't.

Its not an amateur sporting competition, its not one persons individual efforts, its an organisation, they should provide the service they are expected to.


Changing the law might allow more flexibility.

spurious wrote: »

So write to the Minister and demand one.

I complained to the ETB but they say its up to the school to sort it out, [which seems strange what is the point of the association if not to deal with these kind of issues] as would the Minister for Education.

notharrypotter

expectationlost wrote: »

Was left without a teacher for 5 weeks and the substitute was trying to teach his own class, so substitution was irregular, erratic and insufficient.

When did this happen?

Wesser

Of course you have the right to a teacher.
However practical.considerations come into it too.
Even if they double the rate on offer to hire a teacher... you cannot guarantee they will hire straight away.
Even then they can't guarantee thst the teacher will be acceptable or perfect to you.

expectationlost

Wesser wrote: »

Of course you have the right to a teacher.
However practical.considerations come into it too.
Even if they double the rate on offer to hire a teacher... you cannot guarantee they will hire straight away.

are they not supposed to have a panel of relief teachers ready?

spurious

expectationlost wrote:

I've complained to the ETB but they say its up to the school to sort it out, as would the Minister for Education.

Get the ETB to request an out of quota teacher from the Minister. They are fobbing you off.

expectationlost wrote:

are they not supposed to have a panel of relief teachers ready?

People need to work. They cant sut around at this time of year on the off chance they mught get work for a few hours that gives them no CID rights. This and other factors have caused the subbing problem in teaching which is not a new thing.

Daisy 55

If a school were allowed to pay more in order to secure a teacher.....where would they get the money?

expectationlost

Daisy 55 wrote: »

If a school were allowed to pay more in order to secure a teacher.....where would they get the money?

the legislation would allow for it.

spurious wrote: »

People need to work. They cant sut around at this time of year on the off chance they mught get work for a few hours that gives them no CID rights. This and other factors have caused the subbing problem in teaching which is not a new thing.

people need to learn and have a teacher we can't sit around waiting for one.

notharrypotter wrote: »

When did this happen?

the teacher is back which is why Im talking the about a broader point of a right to teacher.

JustAThought

expectationlost wrote: »

the teacher is back which is why Im talking the broader point of a right to teacher.

this is what has the classes at primary school level is such a state - and its working its way through to secondary where in the next few years there will be an absolute crisis. Everyone has a right to an ‘education’ and a school place - afaik there is no right to a teacher nor, ironically, at secondary level to one that is explicitly qualified to teAch in the area they are teaching. This has been an under the radar issue in Irish for years but also specifically in maths where people are more likely to be outraged as the consequences are far greater (arguably). As for the right to an education - watch this space with the hoards of special needs children -severe behavioural issues and on the spectrum autism - in ordinary primary school classes working their way through the system - one teacher and occasional shared help by non specialists ‘special needs’ assistants - often unemployed newly qualified teachers . When this cohort reach secondary and the competition for an exam dominated education starts and the one teacher is battling to control mentally incapable and severely emotionally and behaviourally damaged children aNd teach an exam cycle syllabus then I expect a lot more student frustration and angry parents taking court cases for their own childrens benefit.

randylonghorn

expectationlost wrote: »

Its not an amateur sporting competition ...

Funnily enough, I was aware of that!

You're missing my point ... which was that people can do their best and still not reach the desired goal.

Just as you will no doubt do your best in the LC, but that does not guarantee that you will achieve a H1 in every subject.

expectationlost wrote: »

the legislation would allow for it.

The money still has to come from somewhere, which means either higher taxes, or cutbacks elsewhere.

And if your proposed legislation allows schools to pay a bonus for a sub if they're having difficulty finding one, what is to stop any available potential sub from holding out until they offer that premium?

In which case, an unintended consequence of your proposal might be to actually *delay* the appointment of a sub while the potential candidate(s) hold out for the best offer they can get.

expectationlost

randylonghorn wrote: »

Funnily enough, I was aware of that!

You're missing my point ... which was that people can do their best and still not reach the desired goal.

Just as you will no doubt do your best in the LC, but that does not guarantee that you will achieve a H1 in every subject.


The money still has to come from somewhere, which means either higher taxes, or cutbacks elsewhere.

And if your proposed legislation allows schools to pay a bonus for a sub if they're having difficulty finding one, what is to stop any available potential sub from holding out until they offer that premium?

In which case, an unintended consequence of your proposal might be to actually *delay* the appointment of a sub while the potential candidate(s) hold out for the best offer they can get.

im just trying to discuss how one would get a teacher not reasons I won't, its not up to me to solve their problem all I wanted was a teacher, you don't think I (or my class) deserved one.

randylonghorn

expectationlost wrote: »

im just trying to discuss how one would get a teacher not reason I won't, its not up to me to solve their problem all I wanted was a teacher, you don't think I (or my class) deserve one.

Of course I do, I already said that in my first post.

And I applaud you for engaging your brain and actually trying to think up ways of improving the system.

But the next step is to step back and objectively weigh up the pros and cons of your idea, and look at the downside as well as the benefits.

Afroshack

You seem to think that the head should do more. Realistically speaking, what specifically do you think they can do? Let’s assume that a permanent teacher goes on sick leave for six weeks, it’s quite sudden and they have a very in-demand subject. The best a head can do is advertise the job, ring as many subs as possible to cover the day-to-day supervision of the class and hold out for a substitute to apply. A head cannot force someone into a job, an ETB can not force someone into a job. The government can’t force people to train as teachers in high-demand subjects.

What, realistically do you want them to do?

expectationlost

Afroshack wrote: »

You seem to think that the head should do more. Realistically speaking, what specifically do you think they can do? Let’s assume that a permanent teacher goes on sick leave for six weeks, it’s quite sudden and they have a very in-demand subject. The best a head can do is advertise the job, ring as many subs as possible to cover the day-to-day supervision of the class and hold out for a substitute to apply. A head cannot force someone into a job, an ETB can not force someone into a job. The government can’t force people to train as teachers in high-demand subjects.

What, realistically do you want them to do?

realistically I expect them to provide a teacher that is their job.

I expect them to be prepared for such situations, not react to them.

Aquals

It sounds like, if the government improved teachers pay, then there wouldn’t be such shortages around the country, and the OP wouldn’t be in a situation where they have to investigate their right to a teacher.

I hope you guys brought up the issue of teachers pay when politicians called to your door this month!

Afroshack

expectationlost wrote: »

be prepared for such situations, not react to them.

How?