This shold do wonders for the resale value of Teslas

cnocbui

https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/6/21127243/tesla-model-s-autopilot-disabled-remotely-used-car-update

TLDR: Tesla yanked Enhanced Autopilot and Full Self Driving Mode from a second hand car someone bought which included those features at the time of sale. Tesla said they didn't pay for them

I predict that if they try this in the EU, they will be in a whole lot of trouble. In Germany, Steam have been told they must allow downloaded games to be re-sold. This might be applicable: https://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2012-07/cp120094en.pdf

If Irish purchasers of Teslas have to pay VRT on the €6K self driving feature, if not purchased with the car, then that makes this doubly hard to stomach.

I hope this was an error and that they will soon reverse course on this action.

Lumen

You take an incredible amount of interest in Teslas considering that you have no intention of buying one. :pac:

cnocbui

Lumen wrote: »

You take an incredible amount of interest in Teslas considering that you have no intention of buying one. :pac:

I have an inquiring mind. I know a lot about, and show interest in, a lot of things I don't, or may not, purchase.

The defensiveness of Tesla fans is military grade.

Soarer

As is the opposite.

They can't be pulling that **** though.

Lumen

cnocbui wrote: »

The defensiveness of Tesla fans is military grade.

I have noticed that too, although I don't personally know any.

This is a bizarre case. Tesla seem to have initally responded in the same way as they did with the "Taleb butt-dials a FSD upgrade" story, which is to claim that their behaviour is entirely reasonable, nothing to see here. In that case they then quietly shuffled out a UI change to fix the problem, and I expect they'll do the same thing here.

It's a poor state of affairs when you have to go public to embarass a company into doing the right thing, but this isn't new. Back in the day there were TV programmes that did this, now we have Twitter.

BKtje

I wonder if it might be linked to the fact that Tesla auctioned the car themselves ( to the dealer ) and decided to sell it as not ap enabled. Wonder if a private sale would yield the same results.

mrbongo

This is a non-story.

The original car was not purchased with EAP and FSD.

Those features were enabled at the dealer to demo to prospective buyers. It was auctioned off erroneously with the features enabled, but Tesla themselves were never paid for enabling the features so they ended up switching them off. All through mistakes.

This is not Tesla removing paid-for features on used cars just cos they feel like it.

Non-story, but good try.

unkel

Any link, mrbongo? If what you posted is correct, then this is some of the worst "fake news" that's been posted in this forum.

con747

unkel wrote: »

Any link, mrbongo? If what you posted is correct, then this is some of the worst "fake news" that's been posted in this forum.

https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/6/21127243/tesla-model-s-autopilot-disabled-remotely-used-car-update



Sorry, didn't see link was posted earlier.

cnocbui

mrbongo wrote: »

This is a non-story.

The original car was not purchased with EAP and FSD.

Those features were enabled at the dealer to demo to prospective buyers. It was auctioned off erroneously with the features enabled, but Tesla themselves were never paid for enabling the features so they ended up switching them off. All through mistakes.

This is not Tesla removing paid-for features on used cars just cos they feel like it.

Non-story, but good try.

Where does your version of events come from?

How did the dealer 'enable' FSD without purchasing it from Tesla?

The original Jalopnik article states:

When the dealer bought the car at auction from Tesla on November 15, it was optioned with both Enhanced Autopilot and Tesla’s confusingly-named Full Self Driving Capability; together, these options totaled $8,000. You can see them right on the Monroney sticker for the car:

It also has an image of the sales sticker for the car the dealer bought which clearly lists the FSD option.



Jalopnik updated their article today to include a personal statement by the dealer which in no way supports your version of events:

Updated: Friday, February 7, 2020, 1:27 p.m. ET:

The dealership, United Traders, reached out to me to add some details and more information about the sale of the Tesla and what they knew of its features at the time of the sale:

I saw the Tesla story blowing up on your website and a few others as well. We are the dealership (United Traders) that sold the Tesla to Alec B_____.

I bought that vehicle personally, and used the full self drive on it multiple times. It was working fine. One day, a random message popped up saying your autopilot has been upgraded after a software update. Then it disappeared. I figured it was a glitch. I already had an agreement with Alec to purchase the vehicle.

He did come and test drive it a few days later, and we both agreed it was a technical difficulty or bug that would be fixed by next software update. Since then Tesla has been of no assistance to him, and I have been doing my best to get him some help in this case.

I sell dozens of Teslas a year, and sold my father in law a Model X P90D with ludicrous speed package. 60 days after the purchase of the car, Tesla removed his ludicrous speed package. Upon complaints to them they said he never paid for it. We have video evidence and multiple pictures of the vehicle with it. They even removed the line under the P90D. I am still shocked at these acts.

https://jalopnik.com/tesla-remotely-removes-autopilot-features-from-customer-1841472617?rev=1580941196331

Lumen

This story is quite confusing and whilst I am reasonably convinced that Tesla screwed up, the dealer's choice of words seems a bit creative with sequencing

Relating to the car he sold his father in law

"They even removed the line under the P90D. I am still shocked at these acts."

That's the physical badge on the back of the car, right? So....?

There are several unusual things that Tesla does which are individually OK but can cause weird edge cases when combined:

1. Having the option to remotely uninstall features. This is legally unavoidable with OTA purchases, since in certain jurisdictions distance selling regulations mean that anyone who buys a feature OTA can return in within a few days for a refund.

2. Installing the full suite of software on new cars before sale, and then yanking the ones that aren't purchased. Whether this is done as a deliberate trial period, to induce an upgrade, or because it takes ages for OTA updates to roll out, I'm not sure.

3. Yanking features on cars they buy back, e.g. free supercharging, and apparently now FSD. This means that you cannot rely on the original purchase documentation. It is in isolation no different from a used dealer swapping out alloys after they buy a car, and in isolation fine.

When you combine these together you have a recipe for massive complexity and ****ups. It would require a diligent company to avoid shooting themselves or customers in the foot with this impressive weaponry. Tesla are not a diligent company.

My guess is that they intended to auction the car without FSD, having tried to yank the feature, but whoever wrote up the sticker referred to the original sale documentation or what was installed in the car, or both, and it appears that neither of these sources is reliable.

In short, I'm guessing normal Tesla incompetence.

But the story is still evolving, and quite hard to follow.

Lumen

I'd add that the final owner of the car knew it didn't have FSD when he bought it, but assumed that the removal was an error that would be rectified by Tesla. I suspect that the dealer didn't discourage this view.

This sort of trust that Tesla will act in good faith and give customers/users the benefit of the doubt is common but misplaced, apparently.

The obvious nice thing to do when discovering that a number of vehicles have accidentally been given unpaid features is to leave them in place and generate goodwill. Nobody who has FSD yanked like this is going to hand over 8k to get it back.

But...maybe Tesla have to yank FSD when it wasn't paid for. Why? Because FSD is an accounting liability. It doesn't actually work yet, so when you buy FSD, Tesla banks the money and promises to deliver it in future. That promise is a liability. If the purchase was not paid for, then the liability is not matched with an asset, and the books don't balance.

This also explains why Tesla yanks FSD when it takes cars back. It reduces their liability, but they still have the original cash.

So I'm hanging this whole sorry mess on the fact that FSD is a worthless liability, and Tesla knows this.

cnocbui

I don't think it is hard to deduce what happened:

Tesla sold this vehicle with the FSD option to someone. That person returned it as a lemon and they gave him a new one configured the same.

They intended to dispose of the returned vehicle after removing the FSD, but forgot/failed to do so and they sold it 'as is' with documentation reflecting that.

Dealer buys it but Teslas systems see that the new registration details don't match with anyone listed as having paid for FSD, so they yank it, because in Tesla logic, only one customer - the original - was fleeced for it.

I suspect the dealer knew or suspected it had been yanked when he on-sold it - maybe not and he suspected it was a glitch, as claimed, but this is irrelevant and doesn't matter, because he would still have been sold a car that he thought included FSD, which actually did include it and was documented as including it.

Tesla would appear to be fully at fault. They didn't remove the FSD before the sale, so they should wear the error, but they have chosen not to. I suspect this will end with Tesla claiming the buyers are at fault, but that as a gesture of good will they will re-enable what was taken.

BKtje

I don't understand how the dealer thought it was a glitch if his father in law's car went through a similar episode before..? Or was the father in laws car's software update also removed around the same time?

physioman

So if a 2014 telsa s is sold with free supercharging for life, if the car is sold onto another owner privately could telsa remove this privilege? I'm sure in the future there will be computer nerd who will be able to adjust the car system so telsa are unable to remove such privileges

Lumen

cnocbui wrote: »

Dealer buys it but Teslas systems see that the new registration details don't match with anyone listed as having paid for FSD, so they yank it, because in Tesla logic, only one customer - the original - was fleeced for it.

As far as I know FSD is not licensed to a person, it's attached to a car.

The situation with free supercharging is a bit more complicated. Prior to some time in 2017 free supercharging was transferable between owners, then they made it non-transferable, but that only affected new cars (except where Tesla had bought back cars and removed it).

cnocbui

physioman wrote: »

So if a 2014 telsa s is sold with free supercharging for life, if the car is sold onto another owner privately could telsa remove this privilege? I'm sure in the future there will be computer nerd who will be able to adjust the car system so telsa are unable to remove such privileges

I doubt the authorisation is in the car, it is more likely tied to the account, with the charger accessing Tesla's systems when you connect.

Sabre Man

According to thirdrowtesla on twitter:

There's a FUD story going around that Tesla is taking Autopilot and FSD away from peoples cars. Not true. Here's what happened:

Someone bought a Model S with FSD, but they returned it because of a yellow border around the screen

Tesla then resold the car at auction with no FSD

The person who bought it at auction was a dealership. They sold it to a customer telling them it had FSD. But at the time they gave it to the customer, FSD had actually been deactivated but they told the customer it was just "a glitch", showing them the original Monroney sticker

cnocbui

Sabre Man wrote: »

According to thirdrowtesla on twitter:

There's a FUD story going around that Tesla is taking Autopilot and FSD away from peoples cars. Not true. Here's what happened:

Someone bought a Model S with FSD, but they returned it because of a yellow border around the screen

Tesla then resold the car at auction with no FSD

The person who bought it at auction was a dealership. They sold it to a customer telling them it had FSD. But at the time they gave it to the customer, FSD had actually been deactivated but they told the customer it was just "a glitch", showing them the original Monroney sticker

Does this Tesla fan provide any proof that the dealer was lying when he said:

I bought that vehicle personally, and used the full self drive on it multiple times. It was working fine. One day, a random message popped up saying your autopilot has been upgraded after a software update.

Without evidence, your assertion the original story is FUD, is in fact FUD itself.

liamog

Both stories can't be FUD.

One of them is spreading fear, the other is spreading solace.
All we can be certain of is the uncertainty and doubt.
On balance given the number of cars we've seen where Tesla have removed FSD when it passes back to Tesla ownership versus the number of cars where it is maintained when Tesla are not involved in the resale. I suspect the correction is closer to the truth than the original claims.

colm_mcm

cnocbui wrote: »

If Irish purchasers of Teslas have to pay VRT on the €6K self driving feature, if not purchased with the car, then that makes this doubly hard to stomach.

Once the car is registered, any extras added can’t attract VRT.

Sabre Man

This issue has been resolved. A Tesla customer experience rep called and apologized and said that Tesla has restored all missed options cited a miscommunication and it was not intentionally.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/4462556/

cnocbui

That's wonderful. An appropriate and correct response from Tesla. The story wasn't false and was perfectly justified.

Soarer

cnocbui wrote: »

That's wonderful. An appropriate and correct response from Tesla. The story wasn't false and was perfectly justified.

So you’re correct.

Given the excellent customer service shown by Tesla, it should indeed do wonders for the resale value of Teslas.