Thin good performing internal insulation

sasta le

Im researching internal insulation but in teo of the room dont want to lose a 100mm plus plaste on the walls
Any thinner boards even if more expensive for a good performance
Thanks

con747

You can get boards from 20mm insulated. They won't be nearly as good though.

sasta le

Dont mind buying more if could get a max 50mm board

con747

sasta le wrote: »

Dont mind buying more if could get a max 50mm board

You can get 25mm 30mm 50mm 75mm upwards. It all depends on what you need to keep the room warm.

con747

sasta le wrote: »

Dont mind buying more if could get a max 50mm board

Check out the Kingspan website and you will have a better idea what's available for your needs. There is some newer products that are fairly slimline but I have never used them so could not say if there any good.

con747

sasta le wrote: »

Im researching internal insulation but in teo of the room dont want to lose a 100mm plus plaste on the walls
Any thinner boards even if more expensive for a good performance
Thanks

Not sure if your aware of the grants available or if you might qualify, here's the link in case. https://www.seai.ie/grants/home-energy-grants/

sasta le

Thanks con747
Have a mate who can do the insulation he woildnt be registeres with the scheme tho

con747

sasta le wrote: »

Thanks con747
Have a mate who can do the insulation he woildnt be registeres with the scheme tho

Make sure he uses the correct mushroom fixings or you will have the fixings showing through the plaster and paint in the future, also watch out for cold bridging. Good luck with it.

Penn

If you're dry-lining more than 25% of the external walls, you fall under Major Renovations work under Part L 2019 and will have to carry out works to bring the house to a BER of at least B2 (if feasible/cost-optimal).

duffman13

Penn wrote: »

If you're dry-lining more than 25% of the external walls, you fall under Major Renovations work under Part L 2019 and will have to carry out works to bring the house to a BER of at least B2 (if feasible/cost-optimal).

Seriously? Ouch, insulate internally to improve energy efficiency for a few K is now spend 10s of thousands to get to a B2! That's not off putting at all

Idbatterim

most of the heat loss is through ceilings, with this new law, can you insulate externally? might get a grant too, has a number of advantages...

Penn

duffman13 wrote: »

Seriously? Ouch, insulate internally to improve energy efficiency for a few K is now spend 10s of thousands to get to a B2! That's not off putting at all

You shouldn't need to spend 10s of thousands to bring it to a B2 though. If you're already planning on dry-lining all the external walls, that'll already have a significant impact on your BER, and for a bit more (some of which can be offset by grants and better loan terms if applicable) you can get to a B2 rating, reducing your on-going energy costs, considering you're doing substantial works to the dwelling anyway. For instance if you're already insulating the walls, adding more insulation in the roofsapce or even just upgrading your heating controls (rather than the entire system) can improve your BER at minimal extra cost, and there are grants available for same (and additional grants for doing several upgrades at the same time).

There is a cost-optimal provision in the regulations, meaning you don't have to get to a B2 rating if it's not technically, functionally and economically feasible. How this is proven or who it may need to be proven to is a grey area though. Ultimately the onus is on you to comply with the building regulations.

sasta le

Penn wrote: »

If you're dry-lining more than 25% of the external walls, you fall under Major Renovations work under Part L 2019 and will have to carry out works to bring the house to a BER of at least B2 (if feasible/cost-optimal).

What does this mean?If i go external which is 5 tines the price and i fail the BER

Penn

No, I meant insulating the external walls internally (drylining). But if you're doing it to more than 25% of the walls, you're supposed to bring the building to a BER of B2 because you fall under Major Renovations requirements under the new building regulations.

sasta le

Penn wrote: »

No, I meant insulating the external walls internally (drylining). But if you're doing it to more than 25% of the walls, you're supposed to bring the building to a BER of B2 because you fall under Major Renovations requirements under the new building regulations.

Well it would be all possible internal walls yes so i have to get permission?

sydthebeat

sasta le wrote: »

Well it would be all possible internal walls yes so i have to get permission?

Nothing to do with planning permission...


Its all to do with building regulations.

con747

sasta le wrote: »

Well it would be all possible internal walls yes so i have to get permission?

Only if you intend to dry line more than 25% of the whole inside shell of the house Op. You are only doing 1 room.

sydthebeat

con747 wrote: »

Only if you intend to dry line more than 25% of the whole inside shell of the house Op. You are only doing 1 room.

Its not just 25% of the internal walls.

Its 25% of the surface envelope. This would include the roof area as well.

con747

sydthebeat wrote: »

Its not just 25% of the internal walls.

Its 25% of the surface envelope. This would include the roof area as well.

25% of the whole inside shell of the house is what I said. To me that includes the walls and roof. It's a matter of calling it Shell or Envelope.

sasta le

Im doing the whole house just the kitchen is tight as is

con747

sasta le wrote: »

Im doing the whole house just the kitchen is tight as is

You will have to get advice on whether your friends work will be up to the relevant building regulations so Op. You said he was not registered so seek advice.

listermint

Isn't much of this grand driven.

I.e of getting a grant you have a listed builder doing the work who complies with 25 per cent regs and thus drives more money back into the grant request scheme. Self fulfilling.

Someone said it was a grey area earlier on. I'd say that's fairly accurate. Let's say someone dry lined their own home all downstairs rooms then had a plasterer in to finish the skimwork. This would be far less expensive than grabbing grants and incidentally is the planning officer coming around to check the walls were boarded or not.

Often there's a comfort versus ber argument. Sensible regs being insensible?

Yellow_Fern

Penn wrote: »

You shouldn't need to spend 10s of thousands to bring it to a B2 though. If you're already planning on dry-lining all the external walls, that'll already have a significant impact on your BER, and for a bit more (some of which can be offset by grants and better loan terms if applicable) you can get to a B2 rating, reducing your on-going energy costs, considering you're doing substantial works to the dwelling anyway. For instance if you're already insulating the walls, adding more insulation in the roofsapce or even just upgrading your heating controls (rather than the entire system) can improve your BER at minimal extra cost, and there are grants available for same (and additional grants for doing several upgrades at the same time).

There is a cost-optimal provision in the regulations, meaning you don't have to get to a B2 rating if it's not technically, functionally and economically feasible. How this is proven or who it may need to be proven to is a grey area though. Ultimately the onus is on you to comply with the building regulations.

Actually there is talk that this regulation is going to be a real issue. External insulation lads saying that even external insulation for many wont be enough in many cases to get to B2 and external insulation is by far the biggest job you can get done widely. You cant rebuild walls. I m trying to get a membrane retrofit and its a nightmare. The national retrofit targets will never be met.

BryanF

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Actually there is talk that this regulation is going to be a real issue. External insulation lads saying that even external insulation for many wont be enough in many cases to get to B2 and external insulation is by far the biggest job you can get done widely. You cant rebuild walls. I m trying to get a membrane retrofit and its a nightmare. The national retrofit targets will never be met.

Can you elaborate on ‘membrane retrofit’?

Yellow_Fern

BryanF wrote: »

Can you elaborate on ‘membrane retrofit’?

an airtightness membrane, it is a retrofit measure that would boost the BER score and there are tens of thousands of houses that probably should have them.

Penn

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Actually there is talk that this regulation is going to be a real issue. External insulation lads saying that even external insulation for many wont be enough in many cases to get to B2 and external insulation is by far the biggest job you can get done widely. You cant rebuild walls. I m trying to get a membrane retrofit and its a nightmare. The national retrofit targets will never be met.

External insulation on its own might not get the house to a B2 if it's an older house, however the regulations and grants are designed to encourage undertaking more than one upgrade since you're undertaking substantial works to the building anyway.

So external insulation might not get you to a B2, but external insulation, increasing roof insulation (which if the house is such that external insulation won't get it to a B2 it's likely the roof insulation doesn't meet current standards either), upgrading heating system, upgrading heating controls... There's a multitude of different upgrade options available. Some can have a huge impact on the BER at little cost, some might cost a good bit of money up front but will help you probably even exceed a B2 and save your energy costs in the long-term.

The issue with the Major Renovations regulations as I see it is there's no proper framework for undertaking a cost-optimal analysis of the works, initial costs, payback period and long-term savings. Plus the qualifying clause in the regulations about being "functionally, technically and economically feasible" is undefined and subjective, which means people are likely to ignore it or justify to themselves that it's not feasible with no proper analysis done on same.

sydthebeat

Penn wrote: »

The issue with the Major Renovations regulations as I see it is there's no proper ..........

.....ability to police the regulations unless there is a mortgage involved.

And in a lot of cases for fabric upgrades there wont be a mortgage involved, so therefore there will be no enforcement as 'building control' do not have either the man power, the teeth or the logistical ability to monitor possible breaches of these "major renovation regs"

Im long enough in the tooth to know that irish people have a very laissez faire approach to building regs and generally do not consider compliance unless they ultimately have to.

the spirit of these regs is great, but like many other laws 'hoping' that people will comply simply wont work if it involves people spending more money than either they have available, or are willing to spend.

Gumbo

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

an airtightness membrane, it is a retrofit measure that would boost the BER score and there are tens of thousands of houses that probably should have them.

Air tight membrane does not boost your BER u less you carry out a blower test to confirm its ACH.

Retrofit of an AT membrane is near on impossible without a strip back to the bare structure.

BryanF

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

an airtightness membrane, it is a retrofit measure that would boost the BER score and there are tens of thousands of houses that probably should have them.

Why is it a nightmare?

Yellow_Fern

kceire wrote: »

Air tight membrane does not boost your BER u less you carry out a blower test to confirm its ACH.

Retrofit of an AT membrane is near on impossible without a strip back to the bare structure.

Thanks. I aware. Blowertests are part of the project.

BryanF wrote: »

Why is it a nightmare?

Not many builders want this kind of job. Its easy to get new windows or cavit pumping but it seems that other jobs like membranes, reveals, internal insulation are not cookie cutter jobs and take a lot of effort to get contracted.

Yellow_Fern

sydthebeat wrote: »

.....ability to police the regulations unless there is a mortgage involved.

And in a lot of cases for fabric upgrades there wont be a mortgage involved, so therefore there will be no enforcement as 'building control' do not have either the man power, the teeth or the logistical ability to monitor possible breaches of these "major renovation regs"

Im long enough in the tooth to know that irish people have a very laissez faire approach to building regs and generally do not consider compliance unless they ultimately have to.

the spirit of these regs is great, but like many other laws 'hoping' that people will comply simply wont work if it involves people spending more money than either they have available, or are willing to spend.

The interpretation of the regulation in question seems to be debated, I cant comment on that. However, forcing large upgrades to reach B2 is not great. It is not 'good in theory'. It is utterly immoral. It like a Trocaire box that only accepts notes. It is dispiriting to many people of modest means who are trying their best to do their bit. Very few retrofits have good returns on investment so you'd think they'd make it easier not harder.