Multi language in the work place.

Lmklad

Posting on behalf of a of a person who’d prefer to remain anonymous but will see the thread

P works in a small open plan office with about 14 employees, consisting of four nationalities. The company is American and this is the only office in the country. The majority are non-English primary language speakers. The largest group insists on speaking their native language excluding the others in the office. A number of the English speaking only have made a complaint of bullying through exclusionism The boss has stated that the law is “grey” is this area. The link below is what I’ve found but I’m seeking further clarification.

https://www.mhc.ie/latest/insights/employment-update-enforcing-one-language-in-the-workplace-is-it-discriminatory

One eyed Jack

Lmklad wrote: »

The link below is what I’ve found but I’m seeking further clarification.

Your boss appears to have already offered definitive clarification - the employer has no definitive policy on the matter. In the case you linked to, there was a definitive policy in place that the employers were able to offer legitimate justification for the policy.

For what it’s worth, from my own experience of working in large MNCs where a complaint was made that other employees were speaking in their native language, it was obvious that the employees making the complaint were more interested in getting one over on their fellow employees than any genuine interest in creating a pleasant work environment for everyone. I informed them that they are welcome to speak Irish as any other employees are welcome to converse in their native language.

Basically there was no legitimate justification for a policy demanding that all employees spoke a common language. I regarded them as adults whom one would imagine were at least capable of working it out amongst themselves without the need to micromanage any particular group to ensure another group didn’t ‘feel excluded’. Their complaints appeared to be rooted in xenophobia as opposed to having any legitimate justification.

Lmklad

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Your boss appears to have already offered definitive clarification - the employer has no definitive policy on the matter. In the case you linked to, there was a definitive policy in place that the employers were able to offer legitimate justification for the policy.

For what it’s worth, from my own experience of working in large MNCs where a complaint was made that other employees were speaking in their native language, it was obvious that the employees making the complaint were more interested in getting one over on their fellow employees than any genuine interest in creating a pleasant work environment for everyone. I informed them that they are welcome to speak Irish as any other employees are welcome to converse in their native language.

Basically there was no legitimate justification for a policy demanding that all employees spoke a common language. I regarded them as adults whom one would imagine were at least capable of working it out amongst themselves without the need to micromanage any particular group to ensure another group didn’t ‘feel excluded’. Their complaints appeared to be rooted in xenophobia as opposed to having any legitimate justification.

Thanks for the input. I am seeking a legal clarification one way or the other rather than an opinion, as well intentioned as it is.

banie01

Lmklad wrote: »

Thanks for the input. I am seeking a legal clarification one way or the other rather than an opinion, as well intentioned as it is.

Legal advice is against the rules of this sub.
All you will get is an opinion, unless your friend wishes to make an appointment with a Solicitor who will offer legal clarification.

The opinion given by OEJ is the state of play at the moment.
Without a company issuing and enforcing a specific policy, there is no actionable breach in play IMO.

If your friend feels that he is being bullied by exclusion, without meaning to be trite.
He has the option of learning the language that is being used by the majority or the group in question.
Quite often in MNC teams, it is a simple fact that a multi-lingual workplace is in effect.

Attempting to "force" a lingua franca, is fine for meetings and comms however, forcing that upon people who may be talking to another native speaker in their office is potentialy a discriminatory action.

One eyed Jack

Lmklad wrote: »

Thanks for the input. I am seeking a legal clarification one way or the other rather than an opinion, as well intentioned as it is.

There isn’t any impediment in Irish law to employers having a policy on the primary business language used and making employees aware of the policy. That’s not a grey area. The grey area is in how the policy is implemented by the employer and whether the reasons for the implementation of what is contained in the policy are regarded as legitimate justification pertaining to the employer, the employees, workplace relations and the nature of employment or type of work involved.

Or is it the claim of feeling excluded that you’re seeking clarification on as to whether or not it could possibly constitute a case of bullying in the workplace? Exclusion can constitute bullying or harassment or discrimination in the workplace, but whether the employees involved would have a case against their employer is something nobody here could clarify for you with any degree of certainty, given they aren’t aware of all the facts of this particular case.

Lmklad

“Attempting to "force" a lingua franca, is fine for meetings and comms however, forcing that upon people who may be talking to another native speaker in their office is potentialy a discriminatory action.”

I most certainly am not seeking advice. I am seeking links to previous WPR or LC rulings on this issue. This section of your post is interesting, but “potentially” would need to be backed with case law etc. I appreciate this may not exist and that is why I’ve posted here seeking legislation if such exists, which it may not. I appreciate civil law is different to criminal law. Engaging a solicitor is pointless if there isn’t a legal standing for any action.

saintsaltynuts

It's a pet of mine. I work in a large place with plenty of Foreign Nationalists. You could be working with two of them from the same country talking away then they'll start to talk to each other in their native tongue.Think it's a bit ignorant they really could be saying anything in fairness.

saintsaltynuts

saintsaltynuts wrote: »

It's a pet of mine. I work in a large place with plenty of Foreign Nationalists. You could be working with two of them from the same country talking away then they'll start to talk to each other in their native tongue.Think it's a bit ignorant they really could be saying anything in fairness.

foreign nationalists!

GM228

Lmklad wrote: »

Thanks for the input. I am seeking a legal clarification one way or the other rather than an opinion, as well intentioned as it is.

There have been three WRC cases (including the appeal to the LC discussed in your OP link) and an ET case were they all held that a single language policy is not discriminatory once it is objectively justified.

Other than that there won't be any further legal clarification as there has been no cases taken in the national courts, or for example the ECJ or the ECtHR (there was one IIRC in the US Supreme Court).

However, the WRC/ET/LC are seen as an authority on the issue (remember they play a quasi-judicial role) until there is any further development on the issues either at the WRC/LC or in court.

Lmklad

GM228 wrote: »

There have been three WRC cases (including the appeal to the LRC discussed in your OP link) and an EAT case were they all held that a single language policy is not discriminatory once it is objectively justified.

Other than that there won't be any further legal clarification as there has been no cases taken in the national courts, or for example the ECJ or the ECtHR (there was one IIRC in the US Supreme Court).

However, the WRC/ET/LC are seen as an authority on the issue (remember they play a quasi-judicial role) until there is any further development on the issues either at the WRC/LC or in court.

Thanks GM228, this is what I was enquiring after. I’ll research the other two cases. Cheers

GM228

Lmklad wrote: »

Thanks GM228, this is what I was enquiring after. I’ll research the other two cases. Cheers

Look up the A General Operative vs A Medical Device Company ADJ-00001835, the Potasinska vs Bank of Ireland Security Services Ltd EE/2008/556 and the Dominik Andvzejeczak & Others vs Microsemi Ireland Ltd DEC-2013-086 cases, they may give you guidance on the issue, but as I said basically all held the same.

The case in the US was the famous Lau vs Nicholas [1974] 414 U.S. 563 case, but, it's not relevant to your topic to be honest as it specifically dealt with the US Constitution and public schools.

banie01

Lmklad wrote: »

“Attempting to "force" a lingua franca, is fine for meetings and comms however, forcing that upon people who may be talking to another native speaker in their office is potentialy a discriminatory action.”

I most certainly am not seeking advice. I am seeking links to previous WPR or LC rulings on this issue. This section of your post is interesting, but “potentially” would need to be backed with case law etc. I appreciate this may not exist and that is why I’ve posted here seeking legislation if such exists, which it may not. I appreciate civil law is different to criminal law. Engaging a solicitor is pointless if there isn’t a legal standing for any action.

As always GM228 has posted excellent info on further cases to read.

"Potentially" doesn't need to be backed by case law if no case has been taken.
It would be framed solely on the basis of the legislation to date.

The company can introduce a single language policy, it needs however to be able to provide a reasonable basis for that policy.

Introducing the policy to a workplace that has no such policy, without a definitive need for it other than avoiding exclusionary feelings on part of single language staff members could be far more expensive for the employer than keeping the current status quo.

2ygb4cmqetsjhx

I think your friend might have to suck it up to be honest OP. I work in a large MNC. The official language of the company is German (we are in Germany to be fair) but the workforce itself comes from all over. There are English lads in my team and as soon as they are around I speak to them in English because for us to speak to each other in German while possible would be totally weird. Think about it. An Irish guy and an English man speaking to each other in German when we both can communicate very clearly in English. We tell each other jokes. If we start doing the same thing in German it just doesn't work.

My colleagues who are not so strong in English don't mind at all. We have about 30 nationalities in a room sometimes. The Mexicans speak Spanish with the Spaniards. The Russians always switch to Russian after two sentences. The Ukrainians speak Russian with the Kazakh girl from marketing because it's easier. It would be very unusual for two people from the same country to speak to each other in what is to them a foreign language.

ambro25

Bentley Scary Traction wrote: »

I think your friend might have to suck it up to be honest OP. I work in a large MNC. The official language of the company is German (we are in Germany to be fair) but the workforce itself comes from all over. There are English lads in my team and as soon as they are around I speak to them in English because for us to speak to each other in German while possible would be totally weird. Think about it. An Irish guy and an English man speaking to each other in German when we both can communicate very clearly in English. We tell each other jokes. If we start doing the same thing in German it just doesn't work.

My colleagues who are not so strong in English don't mind at all. We have about 30 nationalities in a room sometimes. The Mexicans speak Spanish with the Spaniards. The Russians always switch to Russian after two sentences. The Ukrainians speak Russian with the Kazakh girl from marketing because it's easier. It would be very unusual for two people from the same country to speak to each other in what is to them a foreign language.

My experience also, in office of 45 with 26 nationalities from all over (incl. beyond EU). Which is the norm for just about every business of every walk of life here (Luxembourg, pop.650k, about 49% foreign-born: this explains that ).

There is a company policy of English language for all work-related comms, because we have strong corpo.ties to the UK and mostly English-communicating foreign clients, but no more.

Everyone accords with English or French, and frequently as not we switch from one to the other several times over in a same conversation/meeting, depending who joins/their level in one language or the other. Ad hoc conversations in native language between eg Romanians, or in Portuguese between Brazilian & local staff (-from Portuguese immigrant descendance, quite common here), of course in Luxembourgish between natives, in German between Finn and Austrian staff...all par for course every day of the working week.

And it's the same at every other biz event/conference, official (LU government/quangos) and not (big 4, incubators, University, etc.)

People who feel threatened by others discussing in their lingo and which they can't understand must be a bit insecure, not to say dumb tbh.

hullaballoo

Moderator: Ambro, you managed a lengthy enough post with nothing wrong in it then in the very second last word it went suddenly and unexpectedly uncivil
The expectation here is a minimum level of civility between members.

Please read the forum charter before posting again.

TheW1zard

Comin over here, takin our.....words?

I worked in an EU organisation in the Balkans. English was the official language.
However, with hundreds of employees from many different countries there were many different languages spoken.
I, nor anyone else ever had an issues with people speaking their native language with each other. I have no idea why anyone would.
Perhaps your friend should just chill out a bit.

Lmklad

I appreciate all the opinions. GM288 has answered my questions. Many thanks.