God's power is shown in human weakness

theological

Another thought and another thread. I was reading a passage this morning in 2 Corinthians 4 about where Christians find their true strength.

2 Corinthians 4:7-18 wrote:

But we have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us. We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; always carrying in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies. For we who live are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. So death is at work in us, but life in you.

Since we have the same spirit of faith according to what has been written, “I believed, and so I spoke”, we also believe, and so we also speak, knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence. For it is all for your sake, so that as grace extends to more and more people it may increase thanksgiving, to the glory of God.

So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day. For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal.

A few thoughts and discussion questions from the passage.
Paul tells us that being a Christian shows his weakness (8-11).

Has this been your experience?
How do you make room for God to show His power in your life?

Paul shows us that Christian living is sacrificial. Death is at work in him and in other apostles and ministers so that others can find life.

Does this challenge our view of pastoral ministry?

Paul writes at the end of this passage that he doesn't lose heart because we have been renewed day by day and that we have an eternal glory ahead of us.

How do you look forward to this glory?

Non-Christians - I've not forgotten you. A few thoughts for discussion.

Do the Christians you know look like they find strength elsewhere or do they look like functional atheists? If so how?

What do you think it would look like if Christians lived like this passage in real life?

54and56

theological wrote: »

Do the Christians you know look like they find strength elsewhere or do they look like functional atheists?

What's a functional Atheist?

sbsquarepants

For it is all for your sake, so that as grace extends to more and more people it may increase thanksgiving, to the glory of God.

Am i the only one who thinks thinks this sounds more than a bit needy?

For an omnipotent being, he's about as emotionally secure as the average pubescent girl.

The old testament in particular can be summed up as just one long continuous whine of "Tell me how great i am, tell me you love me, show me how much, you do love me don't you? Good, cos if you don't you'll be sorry!"

theological

54and56 wrote: »

What's a functional Atheist?

If I profess to be a Christian but I actually rely on my own power and strength every day instead of depending on God I'm functionally living as if God doesn't exist. Hence the term functional atheist.

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Am i the only one who thinks thinks this sounds more than a bit needy?

For an omnipotent being, he's about as emotionally secure as the average pubescent girl.

The old testament in particular can be summed up as just one long continuous whine of "Tell me how great i am, tell me you love me, show me how much, you do love me don't you? Good, cos if you don't you'll be sorry!"

This quote is Paul writing about his ministry and how he is serving others with the gospel so that God may be glorified. Paul (the writer) has planted a church in Corinth. False teachers have entered the church proclaiming a different gospel from what was originally declared to them. Paul is pointing out that his ministry is a ministry of sacrifice following after the sacrificial ministry of his Lord, Jesus Christ rather than the ministry of the false teachers which is about the glory of themselves being impressive rather than a ministry of weakness which points to the power of Jesus Christ.

With that bit of important context over. I don't think it is needy to point to God's goodness in His work in Christian ministry and the glory of creation itself.

I'm hoping for a good discussion on the points I've raised in the OP.

theological

Deja Boo wrote: »

Do the Christians you know look like they find strength elsewhere hahahaha, NO.
...or do they look like functional atheists? as opposed to non-functional atheists ???
...If so how? Filled with their OWN piety.

What do you think it would look like if Christians lived like this passage in real life? Confused, they would look confused.

In the interest of keeping this thread on topic let's focus on the non-Christian questions. I know you may have been attempting to troll but you said some interesting things.

How do Christians look as if they don't find strength elsewhere?

How are Christians filled with their own piety rather than love of God and the gospel?

Let's get into a real discussion on this.

sbsquarepants

theological wrote: »

.

I'm hoping for a good discussion on the points I've raised in the OP.

That's what i'm doing!

It says

For it is all for your sake...so that...it may increase thanksgiving, to the glory of God.

So not for your sake at all, for his, to satisfy the inherent neediness in his clearly flawed character.

I don't understand why Christians are so blind to this glaringly obvious failing!

54and56

theological wrote: »

If I profess to be a Christian but I actually rely on my own power and strength every day instead of depending on God

This is an interesting assertion.

So, you confirm you have your own power and strength. For clarity can you confirm what you actually mean by this? Do you mean physical power and strength, mental power and strength or both?

smacl

theological wrote: »

Do the Christians you know look like they find strength elsewhere or do they look like functional atheists? If so how?

The Christians that I know are a very varied bunch indeed, as are the atheists. By strength I take it you mean resilience in the face of adversity. While I have friends who certainly draw strength from their faith in these times, the better mechanism for religious and non-religious people alike is to talk through problems with friends and family. Not doing this is likely to internalise the problem where it is prone to fester. I draw strength in times of need from those around me and similarly offer it when those near to me need it. Where Christianity is expressed as part of a community I daresay it can work well in this role but their are other forms of community that work equally well if not better. At an individual and more ascetic level I get great benefit from the simpler pleasures in life, e.g. cycling through a forest at lunch prepares me for the inevitable stresses of the afternoon back in the office. Making a conscious effort to be kind to friends and family means kindness is returned and I live in a kinder environment. One of the dictionary definitions of Christian which I gather you have a problem with is simply "treating other people in a kind or generous way". I like that definition.

What do you think it would look like if Christians lived like this passage in real life?

I suspect that Christians who try to live their life in a manner closely directed by literal passages from the bible will ultimately become frustrated.

theological

smacl wrote: »

I suspect that Christians who try to live their life in a manner closely directed by literal passages from the bible will ultimately become frustrated.

I was hoping for engagement on this passage as opposed to any passage but your statement was curious.

Why do you think I'll become frustrated by living as a Christian?

It'd be interesting to discuss the reasoning.

54and56

theological wrote: »

If I profess to be a Christian but I actually rely on my own power and strength every day instead of depending on God

If you believe god gave you power and strength why would you choose not to use it and depend on god instead? Why would god have given it to you if he/she/it/they didn't want you to use it when you needed it most?

theological

54and56 wrote: »

This is an interesting assertion.

So, you confirm you have your own power and strength. For clarity can you confirm what you actually mean by this? Do you mean physical power and strength, mental power and strength or both?

I mean living life without depending on God, not coming to Him in prayer not hearing from Him in His Word for guidance and strength to live life and to serve God.

54and56 wrote: »

If you believe god gave you power and strength why would you choose not to use it and depend on god instead? Why would god have given it to you if he/she/it/they didn't want you to use it when you needed it most?

It's not an either or equation for the Christian. Our strength is limited Paul points this out in the passage I cited. We are weak and we fall short but that provides room for God to work in partnership with us.

That's the point of the passage I cited.

sbsquarepants

theological wrote: »

It's not an either or equation for the Christian. Our strength is limited Paul points this out in the passage I cited. We are weak and we fall short but that provides room for God to work in partnership with us.

That's the point of the passage I cited.

Partnership? Seriously? That's what you take away from that passage?

He makes you too weak to succeed alone so that you need to go running back and looking for help, reaffirming how great he is in the process.

If that was your daughters relationship with her boyfriend, what advice would you give her? Keep going back and maybe praise himl a bit harder next time, he is a great guy after all?

It's not what i'd be telling my daughter, i can guarantee you that.

How do you not see that?

theological

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Partnership? Seriously? That's what you take away from that passage?

He makes you too weak to succeed alone so that you need to go running back and looking for help, reaffirming how great he is in the process.

If that was your daughters relationship with her boyfriend, what advice would you give her? Keep going back and maybe praise himl a bit harder next time, he is a great guy after all?

It's not what i'd be telling my daughter, i can guarantee you that.

How do you not see that?

I don't see this because your analogy is off.

Firstly I don't relate to God in a romantic relationship. So the discussion of it in the context that you've provided isn't really appropriate.

Secondly the relationship between God and humanity isn't equal. If that is how you have understood God your view is way way too small. God in a Christian sense is the creator of the known universe but has chosen to make Himself relatable in a real way by stepping down to this earth to be our Saviour.

Therefore it is natural that God is going to be more powerful than His creation.

ChrisJ84

sbsquarepants wrote: »

So not for your sake at all

So far so good.

sbsquarepants wrote: »

for his, to satisfy the inherent neediness in his clearly flawed character.

This doesn't sound like the God who reveals himself in scripture. Unless you think you've uncovered something that every Christian throughout history has missed, maybe you're incorrect on this point?

Sounds like you think God is in the dock, but that get's things exactly the wrong way round.

nthclare

Im not religious myself but I have read some of mystics interpretation of God and its really deep and confusing.

The abrahamic God in my opinion had nothing to offer the Celts, only war, control from Rome and devastating consequences.

A friend who's an earthy Pagan described the Abrahamic doctrine being from the origin of a sand demon or jin from the middle East.

Supposedly Christianity brought us out of the Iron age into a more progressive society, which to me makes no sense.

I think its on the way out here to be honest.
No doubt Christians mean well and are empathic to people's lack of belief.

I was caught up with the God thing and I had no peace whatsoever constantly taking inventory and finding myself burning in hell a lot.

My grandmother was a pagan one of the last of the original ones, she had no interest in the church after seeing through the contradictions and lust for power and money.

She found more peace getting up in the morning, feeding her chickens, baking bread and living a quite life in the rugged landscape of North Kerry.
I remember the priest was trying to get her back into the fold, my dad had to basically tell the priest to never set foot on her land again.
Trying to instil fear in an old woman who was going blind.

Maybe she was delusional but she had more time for the sidhe and land spirits.
Than some stories from far away lands which hadn't any relevance to our stories.

No doubt there's a lot of comfort in the Bible for some people, and being an agnostic and open minded I have read a lot of the Holy book and its full of contradictions.

Its the written word and I'd love to read a copy of the original text translated into English but id say it is impossible to translate it now.
Not many people can read Aramiac maybe a few people in certain parts of Syria still speak it.

But there's probably different ways of translation, which one is right?

Due to unfortunate circumstances a lot of old manuscripts and recorded stories were burnt in a fire in the 20's I think...

Reminds me of terrorists trying to burn or destroy history in order to fulfill their own version's of what should be.

smacl

nthclare wrote: »

Its the written word and I'd love to read a copy of the original text translated into English but id say it is impossible to translate it now.
Not many people can read Aramiac maybe a few people in certain parts of Syria still speak it.

If you're interested in the origins of the bible and its original text, Bart Ehrman's Lost Christianities is worth a punt.

nthclare

smacl wrote: »

If you're interested in the origins of the bible and its original text, Bart Ehrman's Lost Christianities is worth a punt.

Thanks Ill check it out

smacl

theological wrote: »

Why do you think I'll become frustrated by living as a Christian?

It'd be interesting to discuss the reasoning.

It isn't living as a Christian will be frustrating so much as living according to what you understand from the text of the bible. The rationale here is as follows. If you live your life according to the literal text of the bible, it appears to be a rather prescriptive existence. At the same time, the bible is a very large text containing no shortage of metaphors that can and have been given very meanings by different readers (and biblical scholars). As such, for any given circumstance you can find a passage in the bible to guide you. The passage you select however, and your understanding of that passage, is your choice for that circumstance. As such, while you think you're being guided by the bible you're actually cherry picking from the bible to justify your own biases. Just my opinion, but this is an exercise that is prone to self delusion and self gratification which will ultimately lead to frustration. In my opinion you need to work with a much broader and more critical knowledge base in order to get the perspective you appear to be looking for.

ChrisJ84

smacl wrote: »

It isn't living as a Christian will be frustrating so much as living according to what you understand from the text of the bible. The rationale here is as follows. If you live your life according to the literal text of the bible, it appears to be a rather prescriptive existence. At the same time, the bible is a very large text containing no shortage of metaphors that can and have been given very meanings by different readers (and biblical scholars). As such, for any given circumstance you can find a passage in the bible to guide you. The passage you select however, and your understanding of that passage, is your choice for that circumstance. As such, while you think you're being guided by the bible you're actually cherry picking from the bible to justify your own biases. Just my opinion, but this is an exercise that is prone to self delusion and self gratification which will ultimately lead to frustration. In my opinion you need to work with a much broader and more critical knowledge base in order to get the perspective you appear to be looking for.

This is interesting. Most evangelical Christians I know (including myself) would say that living in a way that is guided by the bible is incredibly liberating, and not prescriptive at all. Sure, there are clear imperatives (do not steal, do not commit adultery), but doesn't everyone's behaviour get influenced by moral imperatives? I'd have thought the question is more do do with where these imperatives come from and why.

Also important to remember that imperatives aren't the sum total of the Christian moral ethic. The bible has a lot to say about our freedom in Christ, and the book of Proverbs is a great illustration of how our moral decisions are often contextual, and require applying wisdom to the circumstances rather than blindly following a rule.

smacl wrote: »

As such, while you think you're being guided by the bible you're actually cherry picking from the bible to justify your own biases.

This is certainly a danger, but again one that applies by anyone who isn't willing to be corrected. It's not only Christians who are liable to self-centred delusion. This is one of the reasons it is so important to live out our Christianity in community, so that Christians can correct, teach, help and support one another.

smacl wrote: »

In my opinion you need to work with a much broader and more critical knowledge base in order to get the perspective you appear to be looking for.

This is also a great point. The bible claims to be authoritative in the matters it speaks about. This certainly touches on all of life, but leaves a lot of room for other sources of knowledge and wisdom. As a trivial example, if I want to learn to be a doctor I will go to medical school, not read the bible.

The key point for the (evangelical) Christian is one of authority - where the bible speaks clearly to something, it has the final say rather than our preferences or other sources of authority.

smacl

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

Sure, there are clear imperatives (do not steal, do not commit adultery), but doesn't everyone's behaviour get influenced by moral imperatives? I'd have thought the question is more do do with where these imperatives come from and why.

I'd be of the opinion that a morality solely derived from biblical text can get too bogged down with specifics and is ignorant of context and the needs, rights and experience of others. Reading another post here is a good example of this, where a prescriptive biblical morality has been used to discriminate against the poster. What you see regularly in posts in this and the A&A forum is rejection of the church and organised religion while maintaining a morality and spiritual identity as broadly Christian. And again today I see another post deriding this position and differentiating between this and 'real' Christians. I think that by and large people's morality in this country is first and foremost informed by a sense of fair play and the intent to be kind, which many would also consider very fundamentally Christian, far more so than any passage from the bible.

54and56

theological wrote: »

I mean living life without depending on God, not coming to Him in prayer not hearing from Him in His Word for guidance and strength to live life and to serve God.



It's not an either or equation for the Christian. Our strength is limited Paul points this out in the passage I cited. We are weak and we fall short but that provides room for God to work in partnership with us.

That's the point of the passage I cited.

My personal reaction is that I feel sorry for anyone who submits themselves to such beliefs but if it helps you get through the day/your life who am I to criticise.

I'll bow out at this stage. Good luck to you.

ChrisJ84

smacl wrote: »

I'd be of the opinion that a morality solely derived from biblical text can get too bogged down with specifics and is ignorant of context and the needs, rights and experience of others. Reading another post here is a good example of this, where a prescriptive biblical morality has been used to discriminate against the poster. What you see regularly in posts in this and the A&A forum is rejection of the church and organised religion while maintaining a morality and spiritual identity as broadly Christian. And again today I see another post deriding this position and differentiating between this and 'real' Christians. I think that by and large people's morality in this country is first and foremost informed by a sense of fair play and the intent to be kind, which many would also consider very fundamentally Christian, far more so than any passage from the bible.

I hear what you're saying, I really do, but I think that the fundamental question is whether these things are true, rather than whether they are useful to me / how they make me feel. There is a clear clash there between Christianity and the current Western, post-modern mindset.

Again, we don't want to be rude, hurtful or cruel but if what the bible says is true then it's certainly not kind for Christians to pretend otherwise.

smacl

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

I hear what you're saying, I really do, but I think that the fundamental question is whether these things are true, rather than whether they are useful to me / how they make me feel. There is a clear clash there between Christianity and the current Western, post-modern mindset.

Again, we don't want to be rude, hurtful or cruel but if what the bible says is true then it's certainly not kind for Christians to pretend otherwise.

As previously pointed out here, there still seems to be a substantial amount of cherry picking involved. The example given from Leviticus was

"19 Whenever a woman has a discharge and the discharge from her body is of blood, she will remain in a state of menstrual pollution for seven days. "Anyone who touches her will be unclean until evening.20 "Anything she lies on in this polluted state will be unclean; anything she sits on will be unclean.21 "Anyone who touches her bed must wash clothing and body and will be unclean until evening."

but I don't see many of today's Christian's worrying themselves about the above. To use terms such as 'pollution' and 'unclean' when referring to menstruation in this day and age is clearly barbaric, so most Christians quietly ignore the above passage as an anachronism that doesn't translate into a modern context. Most Christians in this country would do the same for biblical passages relating to homosexuality.

I think this is where a worldview predicated on excessive biblical literalism will have you painting yourself into a corner. The world and our population are not static. So for example, during the time that Christ was alive the world population is estimated at being between 170 and 400 million, with average life expectancy at birth of 21 years or 45 if you survived past age 10. Notions such as 'go forth and multiply' made good sense in that context. Today we have 7.6 billion people with life expectancy of 70 years. (We really need to stop multiplying at this point) The point here is that whatever about the relevance of the bible in times past, there are undoubtedly large parts of it that are well past their sell by date. I think those Christians who work with the broader message in the context of caring within a changing modern society will fare better than those taking a more rigid stance.

I'd also take the view that those on the religious right have become so entangled with, and manipulated by, the greed and corruption that accompanies right wing politics that they struggle to see wood from the trees.

theological

Yes there are reasons for that primarily because the New Covenant fulfils the Old. It is the same reason why we don't have dietary laws. Jesus Christ fulfilled them.

Matthew 15:10-20 wrote:

And he called the people to him and said to them, “Hear and understand: it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person.” Then the disciples came and said to him, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?” He answered, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be rooted up. Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.” But Peter said to him, “Explain the parable to us.” And he said, “Are you also still without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach and is expelled? But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone.”

I would recommend trying to keep this thread on topic. This thread is about God's power in human weakness and 2 Corinthians 4. I'd be interested in chatting about covenant theology and cleanness in the Mosaic laws in a better thread.

ChrisJ84

smacl wrote: »

As previously pointed out here, there still seems to be a substantial amount of cherry picking involved. The example given from Leviticus was

"19 Whenever a woman has a discharge and the discharge from her body is of blood, she will remain in a state of menstrual pollution for seven days. "Anyone who touches her will be unclean until evening.20 "Anything she lies on in this polluted state will be unclean; anything she sits on will be unclean.21 "Anyone who touches her bed must wash clothing and body and will be unclean until evening."

but I don't see many of today's Christian's worrying themselves about the above. To use terms such as 'pollution' and 'unclean' when referring to menstruation in this day and age is clearly barbaric, so most Christians quietly ignore the above passage as an anachronism that doesn't translate into a modern context. Most Christians in this country would do the same for biblical passages relating to homosexuality.

I think this is where a worldview predicated on excessive biblical literalism will have you painting yourself into a corner. The world and our population are not static. So for example, during the time that Christ was alive the world population is estimated at being between 170 and 400 million, with average life expectancy at birth of 21 years or 45 if you survived past age 10. Notions such as 'go forth and multiply' made good sense in that context. Today we have 7.6 billion people with life expectancy of 70 years. (We really need to stop multiplying at this point) The point here is that whatever about the relevance of the bible in times past, there are undoubtedly large parts of it that are well past their sell by date. I think those Christians who work with the broader message in the context of caring within a changing modern society will fare better than those taking a more rigid stance.

I'd also take the view that those on the religious right have become so entangled with, and manipulated by, the greed and corruption that accompanies right wing politics that they struggle to see wood from the trees.

The example you give really isn't cherry picking. Christians read the Bible from a Christian perspective, living in a time after Jesus has lived, died and risen. This means that we interact with parts of it differently than God's people in OT Israel. The idea that Jesus is the fulfilment of the OT law is a Christian commonplace. Without being needlessly provocative, a better example of cherry picking would be to jettison the Bible's clear teaching on human sexuality because it doesn't fit with modern Western culture.

Your comment on the religious right puts too much emphasis on a very vocal group in the US, and is of limited relevance here in Ireland. In my experience, Christians exist across the political spectrum (as, in my experience, do atheists).

To get back to the OP, we are weak, flawed and contrary creatures. When it comes to ethical, political, and any other decision, human wisdom can be useful but we do better to look to a source of wisdom outside of ourselves (in this case, a perfect one). As we have a record of God's revelation of himself in the Bible, it subsequently makes sense for us to look there for guidance, correction etc. More than that, Christians believe that the Bible is the means by which God continues to speak to us today.

sbsquarepants

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

This doesn't sound like the God who reveals himself in scripture. Unless you think you've uncovered something that every Christian throughout history has missed, maybe you're incorrect on this point?

.

Yet miss it they do!

theological wrote: »

I don't see this because your analogy is off.

.

If you say so, seems fairly decent analogy to me though. Maybe change the boyfriend to a parent if it helps you visualise it better.
The genetic / romantic relationship between the parties is not important, their behaviour is what matters.

theological wrote: »

Secondly the relationship between God and humanity isn't equal. If that is how you have understood God your view is way way too small. God in a Christian sense is the creator of the known universe but has chosen to make Himself relatable in a real way by stepping down to this earth to be our Saviour.
.

Our saviour from what?

And of course the relationship is unequal, I never claimed otherwise. In fact I would argue that not only is it unequal, it's also unhealthy and abusive.

ChrisJ84

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Yet miss it they do!

Thank goodness we've got you here to correct us and keep us right :rolleyes:

sbsquarepants

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

Thank goodness we've got you here to correct us and keep us right :rolleyes:

Mysterious ways Chris.

If we're all just microscopic cogs in his catastrophic plan, maybe i've been sent to show you the error of your ways ;)

ChrisJ84

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Mysterious ways Chris.

If we're all just microscopic cogs in his catastrophic plan, maybe i've been sent to show you the error of your ways ;)

A prophet moves among us!

ChrisJ84

theological wrote: »

Another thought and another thread. I was reading a passage this morning in 2 Corinthians 4 about where Christians find their true strength.



A few thoughts and discussion questions from the passage.
Paul tells us that being a Christian shows his weakness (8-11).

Has this been your experience?
How do you make room for God to show His power in your life?

Paul shows us that Christian living is sacrificial. Death is at work in him and in other apostles and ministers so that others can find life.

Does this challenge our view of pastoral ministry?

Paul writes at the end of this passage that he doesn't lose heart because we have been renewed day by day and that we have an eternal glory ahead of us.

How do you look forward to this glory?

Non-Christians - I've not forgotten you. A few thoughts for discussion.

Do the Christians you know look like they find strength elsewhere or do they look like functional atheists? If so how?

What do you think it would look like if Christians lived like this passage in real life?

A major challenge is to be humble in relation to ourselves, and bold in relation to the message and truths of Christianity. Too often, we get those two the wrong way round.

I think this is a passage we come to appreciate more as we get older, both in life and in the faith. As I see more of my sinfulness, it becomes increasingly obvious that I'm nothing but a sinner saved by grace. And as I get older, I increasingly see my clay-ness physically, mentally, emotionally etc.