Carwow range test

jspuds

Carwow tested Tesla Model 3, Audi e-tron, Jaguar I-Pace, Nissan Leaf, Kia e-Niro and Mercedes EQC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZH7V2tU3iFc

ewj1978

great test

VikingG

Tesla M3 - 269 Miles - 78% of claimed range
Niro - 255 Miles - 90%
Jag iPace - 223 Miles - 76%
Leaf - 208 Miles - 87%
eTron - 206 Miles - 81%
Merc eQC - 194 Miles - 75%



for those who just want the figures

duploelabs

Would've liked them to have done a varying standard of roads rather than the motorway only option as it may have benefitted the lighter cars if they're slowing and accelerating

ELM327

This is a comment on the WLTP methodology more than the EVs themselves.

Still interesting to see that the M3 has better outright range than everything else, not to mention charges faster.

PaulRyan97

VikingG wrote: »

Tesla M3 - 269 Miles - 433km - 78% of claimed range
Niro - 255 Miles - 410km - 90%
Jag iPace - 223 Miles - 359km - 76%
Leaf - 208 Miles - 335km - 87%
eTron - 206 Miles - 332km - 81%
Merc eQC - 194 Miles - 312km - 75%



for those who just want the figures

Added kilometers for those that prefer it.

Black_Knight

Bravo to the Niro. Such a pity so few have been sold... for me to purchase 2nd hand in a couple of years time.

Soarer

It's the 62 kWh Leaf, in case anyone was getting excited!

ewj1978

Still surprised that the 2 most efficient were the Niro and Leaf. Either that or their companies are the two most truthful when it comes to expected range.
Niro/e-soul are definitely mine next car.

duploelabs

ewj1978 wrote: »

Still surprised that the 2 most efficient were the Niro and Leaf. Either that or their companies are the two most truthful when it comes to expected range.
Niro/e-soul are definitely mine next car.

Or that they tested their cars under the more similar conditions as they did in the video

jusmeig

Would like to see the SR+ in the mix with the likes of leaf/etron. It's far more efficient and lighter.

ELM327

ewj1978 wrote: »

Still surprised that the 2 most efficient were the Niro and Leaf. Either that or their companies are the two most truthful when it comes to expected range.
Niro/e-soul are definitely mine next car.

They are all tested on the WLTP cycle and this is where the quoted ranges come from.

Seweryn

Great, but it would be nice to see the test with the same cars but say 3 or 5 years old.

unkel

Seweryn wrote: »

Great, but it would be nice to see the test with the same cars but say 3 or 5 years old.

Why? That will make very little difference in range.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Why? That will make very little difference in range.

I heard on the radio last week from Niall Boylan that the batteries have to be changed after 2 years! You're not pulling the wool over my eyes!

Seweryn

unkel wrote: »

Why? That will make very little difference in range.

Well, I have never bought one and have seen no range tests of a factory EV with say 100k km or more which would be a typical second hand purchase.
If they can't reach their claimed range when new, I guess the batteries are not getting better with age.

ELM327

Seweryn wrote: »

Well, I have never bought one and have seen no range tests of a factory EV with say 100k km or more which would be a typical second hand purchase.
If they can't reach their claimed range when new, I guess the batteries are not getting better with age.

Other than Nissans, rumors of EV battery death have been greatly exaggerated

fricatus

Superb little episode I must say - had a classic Top Gear feel to it. It's the type of thing Clarkson et al should really have embraced, rather than guffawing about unplugging electric cars. At least James May appears to be coming into the 21st century in fairness to him.

I really enjoyed the bit where Mat was explaining to the guy from the hotel that he was actually doing a scientific experiment driving around and around in circles. Tesla Model 3 unsurprisingly top of the pile, but serious kudos to Kia for the e-Niro, which is a really excellent EV. Pity the supply of them is so limited, otherwise I'd buy one in the morning.

Dardania

Really enjoyed this, and it shows how Tesla and Nissan have been in the game a while, with some experience under their belt. And wow, the Kia was very impressive.

From a platform perspective, I'd be curious what the kWh/100km figures are - as it would indicate which cars would still have headroom to expand range efficiently in future.

Orebro

ELM327 wrote: »

Other than Nissans, rumors of EV battery death have been greatly exaggerated

The first Leafs yes, not true for the ones built in the UK from 2014 onwards.

Rafal

Seweryn wrote: »

If they can't reach their claimed range when new, I guess the batteries are not getting better with age.

These cars can reach their claimed WLTP range. In fact they all reach that range, and even exceed it in some cases.

WLTP, or Worldwide Harmonised Light Vehicles Test Procedure, is a standardised way of testing the range of EVs and pollution emissions of ICEs. Unfortunately, WLTP does *not* match our real-world conditions or use patterns. It is a short, 30-minute test in which a car is “driven” less than 24 km only, and the ambient temperature is 23 C! Average speed is 46 km/h. How realistic is all of that in Ireland? The test estimates the power consumption which is then extrapolated into the stated car range, based on usable battery capacity. Some manufacturers understate their range, esp. for variants of the same model, and hats-off to them for that, but others seem to stick to the rules.

Tests like the one in this video are a better match to real-world use, but they are not a replicable standard. On a positive note, WLTP is much closer to reality than the previous standard, NEDC. The US EPA tests seem more accurate, but they are not a standard here...

I wish the standards were better, but in reality, each of us drive differently, and while range is still a key concern for EVs, you should test yourself. My driving of my M3 LR AWD in Irish winter, plenty of motorway, easily does 320 km but no more than 370 km, that is 200–230 miles.

I expect to have 10% less range in 4 years, after about 120,000 km. If I am in doubt about how far my car can go, I use abetterrouteplanner.com which is spot-on in estimating real-world range, usually within 2%!

btkm8unsl0w5r4

So you can get from Dublin to Galway and back if you drive carefully. Drive like a loon and you need 20 mins fast charging or a destination charger for a few hours.

Its almost there, almost where range anxiety is non existent. Problem is you need to be organised, have the car charged up and ready to go. I think once there is 600km stated range people will finally be able to let the range thing go. Its not a problem now, but only for the careful and prepared.

A few more fast chargers like ionity and tesla dotted around the midlands and major motorways and we are sorted.

ELM327

Orebro wrote: »

The first Leafs yes, not true for the ones built in the UK from 2014 onwards.

There are reports of similar (but slower) deg affecting the lizard packs too.
It's not just the gen 1 cars.

ELM327

Lilyana Rapping Sleepyhead wrote: »

So you can get from Dublin to Galway and back if you drive carefully. Drive like a loon and you need 20 mins fast charging or a destination charger for a few hours.

Its almost there, almost where range anxiety is non existent. Problem is you need to be organised, have the car charged up and ready to go. I think once there is 600km stated range people will finally be able to let the range thing go. Its not a problem now, but only for the careful and prepared.

A few more fast chargers like ionity and tesla dotted around the midlands and major motorways and we are sorted.

New model S long range is now ~600km range.
3-4 years ago it was 400.

Now, the eco cars from Korea can do 400. Perhaps in 3-4 more years we'll have normal mass market cars doing 600km+?

Creamy Goodness

ELM327 wrote: »

New model S long range is now ~600km range.
3-4 years ago it was 400.

Now, the eco cars from Korea can do 400. Perhaps in 3-4 more years we'll have normal mass market cars doing 600km+?

whilst I agree, I think it'll be 10 years before 600km of range will be available in an EV that's in the mid price range 30-40k that majority of new car owners buy. a €100k+ Tesla is not that :pac:.

Until the general Joe soap can get that sort of range for the price of a Golf, range anxiety will continue to exist.


I'm a big fan of CarWow's videos (not just this EV one), he seems quite down to earth and doesn't just review the "poster on a teenagers bedroom wall" cars.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Its going to take a long time for "Joe Soap" to believe it can work for them. People put up all sorts of irrelevant roadblocks in their way to avoid change. Most people I talk to wont consider a EV because the once took a 500 mile trip 7 years ago. Also the incentives are going to vanish. Sometimes I think you need a degree in electrical engineering to make sense of it all. It needs to be simplified.

If a EV runs out of charge and ends up on the back of a lorry there will be posts on social media, and people will see it and go "ah look that the milkfloat run out of electrons after 20 miles"....if you see a chap with a jerrycan walking down the motorway you ignore it

Johnboy1951

I find it strange that not once have I seen discussion on the use of 'modern tech' to manage charging the BEV from the user point of view.
We are all very well aware that many people are technophobes, and can barely turn on a PC.
How will these people react to the almost necessary use of specialised apps on smart phones and the other various accouterments that good management of charging apparently requires? Very many of them have not even seen/used GPS etc.

I see a lot of hesitation, because of these, in the future acceptance of the BEV.

For me the clear winner in that test was the Kia - purely because its expected mileage was the most accurate.
That would definitely influence me when buying ...... that I could believe the figures quoted.

Orebro

ELM327 wrote: »

There are reports of similar (but slower) deg affecting the lizard packs too.
It's not just the gen 1 cars.

You think an Ioniq when 5/6 years old won’t exhibit the same amount of degradation minimal and all as it is?

Dardania

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I find it strange that not once have I seen discussion on the use of 'modern tech' to manage charging the BEV from the user point of view.
We are all very well aware that many people are technophobes, and can barely turn on a PC.
How will these people react to the almost necessary use of specialised apps on smart phones and the other various accouterments that good management of charging apparently requires? Very many of them have not even seen/used GPS etc.

I see a lot of hesitation, because of these, in the future acceptance of the BEV.

For me the clear winner in that test was the Kia - purely because its expected mileage was the most accurate.
That would definitely influence me when buying ...... that I could believe the figures quoted.

Concur with you on this point. Tesla have this topic well addressed, by virtue of the charge port door even opening automatically. And there is an update coming to CCS if I recall correctly, that Benz will incorporate, where the car can communicate with public charge ports for account management handshaking.

At home, my advice is to buy the simplest charge point possible, no apps or fancy stuff - for the reason you say. And in fairness, I don't think many modern EVs need special considerations for charging.

ELM327

Creamy Goodness wrote: »

whilst I agree, I think it'll be 10 years before 600km of range will be available in an EV that's in the mid price range 30-40k that majority of new car owners buy. a €100k+ Tesla is not that :pac:.

Until the general Joe soap can get that sort of range for the price of a Golf, range anxiety will continue to exist.


I'm a big fan of CarWow's videos (not just this EV one), he seems quite down to earth and doesn't just review the "poster on a teenagers bedroom wall" cars.

No I agree, my point was more that what 3-4 years ago cost 100k, now is available in 35-45k cars. And wondering in 3-4 years from now what a kona / niro etc will have

Orebro wrote: »

You think an Ioniq when 5/6 years old won’t exhibit the same amount of degradation minimal and all as it is?

No, that would be silly, to expect no deg from a 6 year old lithium ion battery


The difference is, after 6 years and 160k km lets say, I would expect the Ioniq to retain 95% of its capacity. And in a leaf I would say 80%. Based on SOH reports on existing leafs and minimal range loss in 3 year old IOniqs I don't think I'd be too far off

Orebro

ELM327 wrote: »

No, that would be silly, to expect no deg from a 6 year old lithium ion battery


The difference is, after 6 years and 160k km lets say, I would expect the Ioniq to retain 95% of its capacity. And in a leaf I would say 80%. Based on SOH reports on existing leafs and minimal range loss in 3 year old IOniqs I don't think I'd be too far off

Didn’t Bjorn Nyland do a video on an Ioniq with 92k Kim’s and he estimated 8% degradation?

Anyway, my point is that it’s unfair to state that Nissan batteries are failing somehow when the fact is the opposite is true - I don’t think there has been a case of any failures, most certainly not in the 2014 onwards.

For the record, I have a Sept 2013 Leaf 1.5 on 80k Kms and it reports 91% state of health, and I have no noticeable drop in range. It’s the same basic tech in all of them, I don’t think Hyundai have any magic sauce to prevent natural degradation over time.

Black_Knight

Seweryn wrote: »

Well, I have never bought one and have seen no range tests of a factory EV with say 100k km or more which would be a typical second hand purchase.
If they can't reach their claimed range when new, I guess the batteries are not getting better with age.

Not like traditional cars straight from the factory ever do their claimed MPG / ltr/100km either.

Lilyana Rapping Sleepyhead wrote: »

So you can get from Dublin to Galway and back if you drive carefully. Drive like a loon and you need 20 mins fast charging or a destination charger for a few hours.

Its almost there, almost where range anxiety is non existent. Problem is you need to be organised, have the car charged up and ready to go. I think once there is 600km stated range people will finally be able to let the range thing go. Its not a problem now, but only for the careful and prepared.

A few more fast chargers like ionity and tesla dotted around the midlands and major motorways and we are sorted.

When's the last time you drove 600km non stop? Mizen head to Malin head is 601km according to Google maps. If you're regularly doing massive long trips, go diesel. The purchase cost vs an electric that can do 600km in 1 charge would buy a lot of diesel.

For me, it's 300km, in winter, with bad weather doing 80% motorway driving (which is probably around a 400km WLTP rated EV). That gives me plenty of breathing room if going Cork-Dublin where I can leave Dublin with some range left (to find a fast charger if I didn't have use of a destination charger). Either way, 300km of driving, i'd be looking to pull in.

ELM327

Black_Knight wrote: »

Not like traditional cars straight from the factory ever do their claimed MPG / ltr/100km either.



When's the last time you drove 600km non stop? Mizen head to Malin head is 601km according to Google maps. If you're regularly doing massive long trips, go diesel. The purchase cost vs an electric that can do 600km in 1 charge would buy a lot of diesel.

For me, it's 300km, in winter, with bad weather doing 80% motorway driving (which is probably around a 400km WLTP rated EV). That gives me plenty of breathing room if going Cork-Dublin where I can leave Dublin with some range left (to find a fast charger if I didn't have use of a destination charger). Either way, 300km of driving, i'd be looking to pull in.

A great sentiment but with very few 150kW+ chargers it doesnt really work here yet. Hence, I believe, the obsession with range.


If we had HPCs in every town then there would be no obsession with range.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Black_Knight wrote: »

When's the last time you drove 600km non stop? .

Read my next post number 26. I think that the 600km range is more of a psychological barrier than a real one, but those barriers and myths are a real issue if this "Joe Bloggs" is to be swayed to get a EV.

ELM327

Orebro wrote: »

Didn’t Bjorn Nyland do a video on an Ioniq with 92k Kim’s and he estimated 8% degradation?

Anyway, my point is that it’s unfair to state that Nissan batteries are failing somehow when the fact is the opposite is true - I don’t think there has been a case of any failures, most certainly not in the 2014 onwards.

For the record, I have a Sept 2013 Leaf 1.5 on 80k Kms and it reports 91% state of health, and I have no noticeable drop in range. It’s the same basic tech in all of them, I don’t think Hyundai have any magic sauce to prevent natural degradation over time.

He did, but that was just an estimation and in my opinion was not correct.


The leafs (and I had a 141 24kWh) have shown worse deg than comparable EVs. Zoe from 2013-2014 for instance still are above 95%.
Jan Bart Spang for instance from the youtube channel, has shown that his 2014 zoe shows 98% SOH after > 100k km and 6 years. No leaf will match that!!!

Lilyana Rapping Sleepyhead wrote: »

Read my next post number 26. I think that the 600km range is more of a psychological barrier than a real one, but those barriers and myths are a real issue if this "Joe Bloggs" is to be swayed to get a EV.

Agree. But psychological barriers are important, as it's what changes people's minds. People would prefer to pay to have an option even if the option is not used.

Black_Knight

ELM327 wrote: »

A great sentiment but with very few 150kW+ chargers it doesnt really work here yet.

Maybe. Be talking about an hour at a 50kW charger to get a 64kW niro or Kona up to ~80%. That's another ~300km of range based on that carwow experiment. I'd rarely do near 300km in a day, nevermind needing to plough on and do another 300km shortly afterwards. I'd say my biggest issue would end up getting the car charged overnight if a 3 pin is the only option available.

Dardania

Black_Knight wrote: »

Maybe. Be talking about an hour at a 50kW charger to get a 64kW niro or Kona up to ~80%. That's another ~300km of range based on that carwow experiment. I'd rarely do near 300km in a day, nevermind needing to plough on and do another 300km shortly afterwards. I'd say my biggest issue would end up getting the car charged overnight if a 3 pin is the only option available.

Spoke to a guy a few days ago, based in cork. His threshold for adoption is when he can do the round trip to Dublin on a single charge. And in some ways. I can see his point. After a long day on a customers site, during which you be eaten, you dont want to stop off on the way back.

Lumen

Dardania wrote: »

Spoke to a guy a few days ago, based in cork. His threshold for adoption is when he can do the round trip to Dublin on a single charge. And in some ways. I can see his point. After a long day on a customers site, during which you be eaten, you dont want to stop off on the way back.

For 500km in a day Tesla M3 LR still rules, right now. 20 mins stopped compared to an hour with an e-Niro.

When the new Ionitys are running that will drop to 40 minutes stopped in the Kia.

But for people who insist on doing 500km in one charge at motorway speed without stopping....enjoy your diesels, and stay safe.

unkel

Lumen wrote: »

But for people who insist on doing 500km in one charge at motorway speed without stopping....enjoy your diesels, and stay safe.

Unfortunately you can not stay safe doing 500km in one go at motorway speeds.

Silent Running

Lumen wrote: »

For 500km in a day Tesla M3 LR still rules, right now. 20 mins stopped compared to an hour with an e-Niro.

But when the new Ionitys are running that will drop to 40 minutes stopped in the Kia.

But for people who insist on doing 500km in one charge at motorway speed without stopping....enjoy your diesels, and stay safe.

I do a regular 520ish km run in the Niro. I stop to eat about 300kms into it. The UK motorway chargers only allow you to charge for 45 minutes, and it's just enough time to eat and go to the loo, while getting more than enough charge to finish the journey. The last time I did it I arrived at my destination with 35% charge remaining.

The point is that a 20 minute stop in 500+kms is all well and good, but it takes twice that to eat and pee.

Lumen

unkel wrote: »

Unfortunately you can not stay safe doing 500km in one go at motorway speeds.

I agree, but anyway the case under discussion is a round trip to a city destination which doesn't have a convenient charger. You drive there, work and eat, and then drive back. So it's only 250km without stopping, which is around two hours. Lots of people can do that without getting dangerously tired, I do have some empathy for them not wanting to extend their day by another 40+ mins.

Also, motorway service station food is horrible. If I'm going to Dublin and I have the choice of various nice restaurant lunches and then eating in the evening with my family, there's no way I want to swap either of those to eat Burger King or lukewarm shepherd's pie on my own.

Nonetheless, I'd rather drive an EV and just chill out for 20 minutes watching Youtube or arguing with people on the internet.

Silent Running

Lumen wrote: »

Nonetheless, I'd rather drive an EV and just chill out for 20 minutes watching Youtube or arguing with people on the internet.

Oh no you wouldn't!

Black_Knight

Dardania wrote: »

Spoke to a guy a few days ago, based in cork. His threshold for adoption is when he can do the round trip to Dublin on a single charge. And in some ways. I can see his point. After a long day on a customers site, during which you be eaten, you dont want to stop off on the way back.

It all depends on the owners use cases. If you're regularly doing Cork-Dublin and back in 1 day, sure, you'd be looking for more range, but for the likes of myself, doing the odd 260km+ drive, 300km in any weather is perfect for me. I've done Dublin and back in 1 day on my Ioniq. It wasn't the most fun experience (partially my own ignorance, partially E-cars reliability) but for the rare once or twice a year I would ever do it, i'm willing to put up with it. A destination charger at IKEA would have been nice though, and the ability to charge at any hotel in the country would be nice too.

n97 mini

Jeez the eQC locked the wheels and the steering wheel when it ran out of battery. Couldn't push it to the (very close) charge point.

unkel

Black_Knight wrote: »

the ability to charge at any hotel in the country would be nice too.

Don't presume you can't. Do bring your granny charger and a 25m extension

Black_Knight

n97 mini wrote: »

Jeez the eQC locked the wheels and the steering wheel when it ran out of battery. Couldn't push it to the (very close) charge point.

Didn't he correct that at the very end saying if someone was in the drivers seat it could have been pushed a very short distance?

Dardania

Black_Knight wrote: »

Didn't he correct that at the very end saying if someone was in the drivers seat it could have been pushed a very short distance?

Exactly. One of the other cars had a similar scenario, bit there were two people in it. Males sense from a safety standpoint.

I didn't get what he was on about with not being towed for prolonged distances in neutral, and potentially damaging the motor. Surely neutral is neutral? Or stick it into B mode and regenerate!

Mickeroo

Dardania wrote: »

I didn't get what he was on about with not being towed for prolonged distances in neutral, and potentially damaging the motor. Surely neutral is neutral? Or stick it into B mode and regenerate!

I think a lot of EVS specify not to do that in the manual. Pretty sure Ioniq manual says to only tow with front wheels off the ground.

krissovo

Dardania wrote: »

I didn't get what he was on about with not being towed for prolonged distances in neutral, and potentially damaging the motor. Surely neutral is neutral? Or stick it into B mode and regenerate!

Neutral in a traditional car is a disconnection of the transmission to the engine within the gearbox. Most EV's do not have a gearbox in the same sense and therefore do not have the same facility for neutral as the motor can come to a complete stop and the car still be "running" so it does not need one. Typically they freespool the motor to provide neutral, this is why they do not like being towed as potentially the safety systems to protect the components all the way from wheels to motor could be off.