Another farm transfer question

tractorporn

Hi folks looking for a bit of advise.

The farm was transferred to me last July and I was advised at the time to keep the farm partnership between my father and myself together as it would have held up all payments.

As now the year has turned I have started the process of dissolving the partnership, I sat down with our accountant last week and she advised me to keep the partnership together to minimise the tax bill each year.

I have two worries about this. Firstly my father seems to be carrying on as if nothing has changed and has vetoed my decisions on a couple of occasions, the most recent being the sale of the Charolais bull for an Angus for easier calving while I'm at work and I'm afraid that if the partnership remains that he will just continue on until the farm kills him.

Secondly I'm worried that if the definition of an active farmer involves making a substantial income from the farm as told in the journal would I be better off with all income coming to me and then paying my father a wage out of that, rather than a portion of the income.

I thought that I had this all planned out in my head but the accountant has me doubting myself.

Thanks in advance

Mortelaro

Your Accountant does not have to live on the farm
Saving Tax is not a reason to continue a troublesome partnership that will lead to arguments down the road that you both will regret and have a habit of mushrooming

50HX

You are probably not going to be able stop him working on the farm so maybe defined roles each may be the way to go

Be glad you have him around esp if you work off farm... I know every situation is different

Personally I miss the auld lads involvement around the place

Re active farmer definition. ..if they ever clamp down on that fully then we and rural Ireland esp the west will close up shop

1373

Did you think he’d just roll over and forget about his farming life , most dads don’t work that way . You’ll just have to work it out as he go along so enjoy him while he able to work . As a side note if you piss him off he might look for high maintenance to help support him in his “retirement”

tractorporn

1373 wrote: »

Did you think he’d just roll over and forget about his farming life , most dads don’t work that way . You’ll just have to work it out as he go along so enjoy him while he able to work . As a side note if you piss him off he might look for high maintenance to help support him in his “retirement”

No I didn't think he would just stop and I didn't want him too either I would just like to change a few things to make life easier for both of us. I intend to continue working full time in the short term and hes 75 this summer.

I have been fed a line that the decisions would be mine but now that I have taken over any changes I would like to make have been shot down.

Case in point are the ewes. Each year I am sent with work to Donegal for a large portion of Feb, I had planned to let out the rams later this year so that I would be around when lambing. I came home from work one eve an he had let out the lambs and we had our first lambs last night. I am due to go to Donegal next week.

I suppose I will just have to get stronger and just take the decisions out of his hands. Ie. Just put the ewes on donedeal and buy store lambs instead.

Cavanjack

tractorporn wrote: »

Hi folks looking for a bit of advise.

The farm was transferred to me last July and I was advised at the time to keep the farm partnership between my father and myself together as it would have held up all payments.

As now the year has turned I have started the process of dissolving the partnership, I sat down with our accountant last week and she advised me to keep the partnership together to minimise the tax bill each year.

I have two worries about this. Firstly my father seems to be carrying on as if nothing has changed and has vetoed my decisions on a couple of occasions, the most recent being the sale of the Charolais bull for an Angus for easier calving while I'm at work and I'm afraid that if the partnership remains that he will just continue on until the farm kills him.

Secondly I'm worried that if the definition of an active farmer involves making a substantial income from the farm as told in the journal would I be better off with all income coming to me and then paying my father a wage out of that, rather than a portion of the income.

I thought that I had this all planned out in my head but the accountant has me doubting myself.

Thanks in advance

Payments would not have been held up. All that was needed was a few forms to be filled out to transfer into your name.
As regards keeping tax down you can just pay him a wage if tax is going to be a problem.

tractorporn

Cavanjack wrote: »

Payments would not have been held up. All that was needed was a few forms to be filled out to transfer into your name.
As regards keeping tax down you can just pay him a wage if tax is going to be a problem.

All I can say is that the RVO in Cavan advised me to wait till the new year as the name on the bps application would be different to the name on the herd number and that would throw it out for manual completion. It was my fault for letting it slip past the 15th of May. Same thing happened when we formed the partnership, payments were held up for a long time we got three bps payments in three months that year we got 15s 85% in july 16, the 15% in august and the next 85% round September. This time round I didn't want to be waiting so just left it

curiousinvestor

Hi,
My two cents worth
You wont change the old man, best to find ways to work together and there will be tough decisions and confrontations. Be the bigger man and dont have a falling out, explain decision and be willing to admit when you are wrong. He has probably forgotten more about farming than most of us will learn.
on the bull. Get a nice AA bull if you want,but run him with a few maiden heifers and a few cows that previously had trouble calving or small cows. I often run 3 bulls for that reason and use AI. Dont break d bank on ur 1st bull.
You need to know your own business, accountants and teagasc can break farmers bank and will power. Do your own research and know your own situation. They are great to offer advise or clarify a point but I'd double check everything they say. You are very very small fish to them.
I'd b here for a while telling d stories where sons nearly fell out with d old man over a new shed, land or tractor only for d old man to tell everyone that he did it all and d youngfella is useless afterwards

Keepgrowing

Cavanjack wrote: »

Payments would not have been held up. All that was needed was a few forms to be filled out to transfer into your name.
As regards keeping tax down you can just pay him a wage if tax is going to be a problem.

Payment absolutely would be held up. Now is the perfect time to change over BEFORE you submit your Bps

Cavanjack

Keepgrowing wrote: »

Payment absolutely would be held up. Now is the perfect time to change over BEFORE you submit your Bps

I got the place transferred in July 18. All payment’s came on time at the end of the year.

Keepgrowing

Cavanjack wrote: »

I got the place transferred in July 18. All payment’s came on time at the end of the year.

You were very very lucky.

tractorporn

curiousinvestor wrote: »

Hi,
My two cents worth
You wont change the old man, best to find ways to work together and there will be tough decisions and confrontations. Be the bigger man and dont have a falling out, explain decision and be willing to admit when you are wrong. He has probably forgotten more about farming than most of us will learn.
on the bull. Get a nice AA bull if you want,but run him with a few maiden heifers and a few cows that previously had trouble calving or small cows. I often run 3 bulls for that reason and use AI. Dont break d bank on ur 1st bull.
You need to know your own business, accountants and teagasc can break farmers bank and will power. Do your own research and know your own situation. They are great to offer advise or clarify a point but I'd double check everything they say. You are very very small fish to them.
I'd b here for a while telling d stories where sons nearly fell out with d old man over a new shed, land or tractor only for d old man to tell everyone that he did it all and d youngfella is useless afterwards

Thanks for the advice I think I have my mind made up and I'll just transfer the herd number into my name and pay him a wage.

On the bull I bought an Angus bull from Michael O'Leary two years ago for heifers and small cows. It's just a pain running two batches of cows and our Charolais is only one star and is prone to the odd monster calf where the Angus is five star and throwing lovely calves. I've attached a pic of some of last year's calves from him which I'm really happy with.