Another Zafira fire

WhatsGoingOn2

Major fire in Norwegian airport caused by another Zafira going on fire.

https://www.thelocal.no/20200108/norway-airport-flights-held-as-hundreds-of-cars-burn-in-fire

300 cars burnt to a crisp. Once the electric cars beside it go on fire you can't extinguish them.
https://www.t-a.no/nyheter/2020/01/09/Brannvesenet-Lav-risiko-for-brann-i-elbiler-20783612.ece

Del2005

[Deleted User] wrote: »

300 cars burnt to a crisp. Once the electric cars beside it go on fire you can't extinguish them.
https://www.t-a.no/nyheter/2020/01/09/Brannvesenet-Lav-risiko-for-brann-i-elbiler-20783612.ece

With the correct equipment you can extinguish an EV fire, fire departments will have to start carrying it.

liamog

The reports from the fire brigade involved said that no battery packs caught fire and the only things that burnt on any EVs was the standard interior/fittings that apply to normal cars.
Reportedly no difference extinguishing them as any other vehicle, but keep spreading that FUD.

The main problem seems to have been, another car park without sprinklers, and the roof was too low for fire engines.
Seems to be a major design flaw with above ground car parks, and allowing Diesel Opel Zafiras.

You do realise that I own an EV?
Go FUD yerself.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

Apt named car, 'the firer'

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

You do realise that I own an EV?
Go FUD yerself.

But yeah the fire risk from EV's is overdone. However if they do catch fire they're a much harder fire to put out.

liamog

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You do realise that I own an EV?
Go FUD yerself.

No batteries were reported as going on fire, the fire brigade reported they couldn't extinguish the fires due to access issues and the lack of fire suppression systems. We all saw the fire in Liverpool, adding it to your post is irrelevant and hence just spreading FUD.

Sorry, I'm really going to have to pull you up on this.
You dismiss my point as naysaying or in the vernacular "FUD"
current battery technology for EVs rely on lithium and the Fire Brigade have limited ability to handle a runaway lithium battery fire in an enclosed space. About the best they can do is drag the car to an open space and let it burn out. This is fact.
It isn't just a problem with EVs. If Ryanair take a bag off you at the foot of the stairs(without asking you if there is a battery device in there which they often do) when boarding a plane and the lion battery goes on fire then that is a big issue.
I'm living with imperfect Lithium technology in the hope that better battery tech comes along and in the meantime the manufacturers can improve other areas of ev design like increasing voltage, improving motor design and reducing the size of chargers while hopefully getting to agreed industry standards by whch time some sort of solid state batteries will be commercialized.

Lithium batteries are bad tech but a means to an end. Runway fires happen and they can't be easily recycled because you can't melt them down to extract the component parts.

The only cars that are a bigger explosion/fire risks than them are Hydrogen cars, supercars and old Zafiras that have escaped a recall.

So please stop downplaying the risks of Lithium batteries.

As I was travelling home and before I saw your post I was pondering the subject and I think at some stage Skangers are going to figure out how to ignite batteries. If I was experimenting I'd be trying with one of those boy scout home made stoves where you put a roll of cardboard in a big tin can and fill it with candle wax. Place one of those under the floor of a ev where the battery is mounted and with patience I'd guess the battery will ignite.
The Parisian New Year Revellers in the banlieus will be heading out on New Year's eve with something like that instead of Molotov Cocktails in coming years to set cars alight.

BTW Many many years ago the brand new Opel Kadett which my parents had just bought went up in flames while still having a "for reg" sticker on it. The fire started low down behind the dashboard.

liamog

So we have a fire in a parking garage where 300 cars went up in flames, and according to fire brigade sources, not a single battery pack from one of the EVs was punctured or turned into a runaway fire.

The fire was also at an airport, are you also going to point out that when a plane goes up in flame, the fire brigade needs specialist equipment?

This was quoted from one of the fire chiefs at the scene.

"Not one single burned out BEV had a battery fire or thermal runaway, they only caught fire to the interior, tires and rims, thus they were just as easy to put out as the ICE cars".

do you know anything about the APU in a 787?

liamog

I'm not here to discuss the general handling of lithium-ion battery pack fires, my whole point was to discount your point.

300 cars burnt to a crisp. Once the electric cars beside it go on fire you can't extinguish them.

The electric cars involved were put out in exactly the same manner as any other vehicle, and the automotive batteries survived surprisingly well considering the extent of the fire.
I'm sure they'll be a full investigation in the coming days, and we'll find out more information. But according to the current info, a BEV in a multi-story car park fire carries the same risk as a conventionally fueled vehicle.

pictures of the shell of the multi-storey parking garage suggest the fire was not put out but rather contained.

liamog

Deleted User wrote: »

pictures of the shell of the multi-storey parking garage suggest the fire was not put out but rather contained.

Which makes the fact that no batteries caught fire more, rather than less impressive.

liamog

Source for the fire chief.

The Chief Fire commissioner (brannsjef) Nils-Erik Haagenrud said to the local Distriktsnyhetene (District news NRK, on TV) that no EV batteries had contributed to the fire. "The batteries were in the bottom of the car in safe environments [sic], everything else above burned down, seats etc" This was aired 19.45 and 3mins into the broadcast. He's more focused on securing the semi-collapsed building.

Source of interview at 3:30: You most probably need a VPN spoofing a norway location and you should know the Norwegian language.

https://www.nrk.no/rogaland/se-tv-nyhetene-her_-1.14851481?fbclid=IwAR2Oa-WdreRnZ4EhXDdKtgTSt9T1Z7HX4aDjZOwh3xrI_YO-LBVbdprYG-4

10-10-20

What's Norway at right now in terms of EV penetration... is it 45% of new sales?
I find it hard to believe that 300 vehicles burned and not one Li-ion pack exploded.
So it would seem that once the battery housing isn't compromised, the battery packs are quite well protected and may only be of concern where compromised (ie, the cells have ruptured) and possibly that the ambient temperature was low and this contributed to protecting the packs as the fire was mainly in the upper-portions of the vehicles, etc. Would the same result have occurred in Texas in mid-summer where the thermal baseline was different?
I'll be watching out for evidence of this in terms of photos as this is an interesting development.

youtheman

liamog wrote: »

The main problem seems to have been, another car park without sprinklers, and the roof was too low for fire engines.
Seems to be a major design flaw with above ground car parks, and allowing Diesel Opel Zafiras.

Apparently, in this country, underground car parks have to have sprinklers, but multistory don't. Bet that requirement will change. I believe the new National Children's hospital in Dublin is being built on an underground car park.........!!!, If so then I assume this will be high on their radar.
I spoke to a member of Cork City Fire brigade following the well publicised multi story cark park fire in Douglas. He said they would never drive an appliance into a multi story car park (even if they could) in case it became a casualty.

liamog

I think that's the general consensus, once a battery pack starts going off it's very difficult to contain.
It also depends heavily on battery chemistry, some are safer than others. Here's a video of someone attempting to fire up a Leaf battery cell.
Play on mute, the music is annoying.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdDi1haA71Q

they were messing about with a battery pack and it blew up.

10-10-20

youtheman wrote: »

Apparently, in this country, underground car parks have to have sprinklers, but multistory don't. Bet that requirement will change. I believe the new National Children's hospital in Dublin is being built on an underground car park.........!!!, If so then I assume this will be high on their radar.
I spoke to a member of Cork City Fire brigade following the well publicised multi story cark park fire in Douglas. He said they would never drive an appliance into a multi story car park (even if they could) in case it became a casualty.

It might be a response-time thing. I know that the large office building within which I work within does not have sprinklers as it's within the 5-min response time of the local fire-brigade and has an evacuation time of less than 3 mins. Therefore, even though sprinklers are recommended on every fire-audit, there is zero chance of them being retrofitted at a cost of ~ EUR 2M.

Akrasia

[Deleted User] wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdDi1haA71Q

they were messing about with a battery pack and it blew up.

The next gen solid state batteries should be much safer, especially if they use glass electrolytes

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote: »

The next gen solid state batteries should be much safer, especially if they use glass electrolytes

as I said earlier current battery technology is a necessary evil until better batteries come along. we can't afford to wait with commercialization of EVs until the time comes when we have better batteries.

dkd21

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdDi1haA71Q

they were messing about with a battery pack and it blew up.

by the look of things thats what happens when you leave a battery pack on charge without a BMS or a controller ..

Del2005

10-10-20 wrote: »

It might be a response-time thing. I know that the large office building within which I work within does not have sprinklers as it's within the 5-min response time of the local fire-brigade and has an evacuation time of less than 3 mins. Therefore, even though sprinklers are recommended on every fire-audit, there is zero chance of them being retrofitted at a cost of ~ EUR 2M.

That's a shocking attitude the building owner has. You may be 5 minutes from the local fire station but what happens when the fire engines are already on a call? It's this attitude that's wrong with people, save a few Euro by comprising all the occupants safety. There's a famous case where the fire brigade was fighting a fire in a tower block and were losing control, as they could only fight it from below and heat rises, when next thing the fire was extinguished by a company who'd retrofitted a sprinkler system on their floor and saved the rest of the building.