Trailing cable while public charging

Silent Running

This came up in the Model 3 thread and rather than derail that thread I thought it was deserving of it's own thread.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jan/05/electric-cars-environment-hazards-pedestrians

In the article, the driver of the Audi pictured did little to help what is a thorny problem. He/she could have put the cable along the gutter, off the footpath.

I often charge at a place where the charger is at the edge of the kerb. This leads to two cars with leads trailing from the charger to the car. As I sit in the car waiting for my wife to arrive, I'm amazed how many pedestrians cross the road and choose to use the only gap with trailing cables in it: between the two charging cars. There are about twenty cars parked parallel to the footpath, but they choose to go where the trip hazard is. Also where the charge unit is, blocking their passage to the footpath.

As ever, each situation is different and common sense needs to apply, but who is going to decide whether the driver was careless when he left the cable for someone to trip over, or the pedestrian was just a bit thick and tripped on an obvious hazard?

Should charging bays be defined as no go areas for pedestrians?

This is an issue that is sure to arise with the increase in charging cars, and our claim culture.

charlieIRL

That pic with the Audi is a load of crock if you ask me. Staged to make it look much worse than what it is for the article. Only other explanation is that there was an articulated lorry parked in front of it and it moved off!

We discussed this here before too though, a lot of us coil the cable around the bollards adjacent to the charge points. They don’t get hot enough to cause any problems. Some users have coiled cables as well so not left dangling on the path

unkel

The only solution is to publicly slow charge wirelessly. Just like you charge your phone. This is not something futuristic, it's well established technology. The likes of BMW offered it as a commercial solution 3-4 years ago.

We obviously need the infrastructure. Hopefully there will be no further investment in slow charging solutions where people will have to bring and use their own cable. It's awkward, dirty, time-consuming and dangerous. And very 2009.

Silent Running

charlieIRL wrote: »

That pic with the Audi is a load of crock if you ask me. Staged to make it look much worse than what it is for the article. Only other explanation is that there was an articulated lorry parked in front of it and it moved off!

We discussed this here before too though, a lot of us coil the cable around the bollards adjacent to the charge points. They don’t get hot enough to cause any problems. Some users have coiled cables as well so not left dangling on the path

Well, giving the Audi owner the benefit of the doubt, there could have been other cars parked when they plugged in.

Even coiling the cables around the stainless poles at the chargers, there's still the section between the charger and the port on the car. Even coiled cables won't stop some idiot tripping over them, especially if they're looking for a payout.

unkel wrote: »

The only solution is to publicly slow charge wirelessly. Just like you charge your phone. This is not something futuristic, it's well established technology. The likes of BMW offered it as a commercial solution 3-4 years ago.

We obviously need the infrastructure. Hopefully there will be no further investment in slow charging solutions where people will have to bring and use their own cable. It's awkward, dirty, time-consuming and dangerous. And very 2009.

But aren't the charging losses on that huge? Wouldn't that reduce the efficiency of the EV overall? It could be the answer to the trip hazard alright, but I would imagine that it would be costly to implement and then to live with the charging losses.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

The only solution is to publicly slow charge wirelessly. Just like you charge your phone. This is not something futuristic, it's well established technology. The likes of BMW offered it as a commercial solution 3-4 years ago.

We obviously need the infrastructure. Hopefully there will be no further investment in slow charging solutions where people will have to bring and use their own cable. It's awkward, dirty, time-consuming and dangerous. And very 2009.

Cant see it happening en-masse in this country for public charging for a long time. For start, all the cars need to provide support for it first so thats a few years away in itself and I'd imagine the cost of installing a wireless charging system in the road is many many multiples of just a pillar on the kerbside.

My guess is wireless will be just in specific circumstances like Taxi ranks until all the OEM's agree a standard, costs come down and they start providing wireless charging capable cars... that's a ways away.

Expect many thousands of public AC wired chargers to go in before you see a mass rollout of wireless charging.

Wireless everywhere would be great but costs and support are against it right now.

KCross

Silent Running wrote: »

This came up in the Model 3 thread and rather than derail that thread I thought it was deserving of it's own thread.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jan/05/electric-cars-environment-hazards-pedestrians

In the article, the driver of the Audi pictured did little to help what is a thorny problem. He/she could have put the cable along the gutter, off the footpath.

I often charge at a place where the charger is at the edge of the kerb. This leads to two cars with leads trailing from the charger to the car. As I sit in the car waiting for my wife to arrive, I'm amazed how many pedestrians cross the road and choose to use the only gap with trailing cables in it: between the two charging cars. There are about twenty cars parked parallel to the footpath, but they choose to go where the trip hazard is. Also where the charge unit is, blocking their passage to the footpath.

As ever, each situation is different and common sense needs to apply, but who is going to decide whether the driver was careless when he left the cable for someone to trip over, or the pedestrian was just a bit thick and tripped on an obvious hazard?

Should charging bays be defined as no go areas for pedestrians?

This is an issue that is sure to arise with the increase in charging cars, and our claim culture.

JOHNNYBEGOOD 123 wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jan/05/electric-cars-environment-hazards-pedestrians

Wonder who will be liable when someone trips over your charging cable when charging at public chargers

The first pic in that article is how it should be as there isnt much risk there as its at the kerbside next to the car and not on the main area where people are walking.

The second pic with the long cable trailing along several car lengths is ridiculous. That should not be allowed and is just asking for someone to trip and/or possibly bust your cable (which is quite expensive) so I cant see why anyone would do that.

Most EV's dont come with a cable that long either so that owner went out of their way to get that cable, presumably because they cant guarantee they get the space next to the charge point.

timsey tiger

Maybe a kerbstone in the path with a deep groove in it to run the cable in it.

Instead of a wireless charging plate for which efficiency might be difficult given varying heights of cars, how about a similar setup except with a probe (in ground)and drogue (underside of car). Downside would be moving parts and waterproofing.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

Expect many thousands of public AC wired chargers to go in before you see a mass rollout of wireless charging.

Wireless everywhere would be great but costs and support are against it right now.

Unfortunately I expect you will be right

unkel

Silent Running wrote: »

But aren't the charging losses on that huge? Wouldn't that reduce the efficiency of the EV overall?

From a recent trial setup for taxi ranks in Oslo, they found it was actually slightly more efficient than wired charging.

Linky


But even if it wasn't, does it matter? I've been charging my phone wirelessly pretty much exclusively over the past 8 years now. Even if it would cost me 25% extra in electricity, I would still do so for the convenience. I would be the same with wirelessly charging a car.

AndrewJRenko

I suppose the fundamental question would be around why public street space should be given over to storage and fueling of private vehicles? We generally wouldn't allow someone to refuel with petrol or diesel while the pipe is running across the public pavement, even for a much shorter period.

So why would we leaving an electric cable out as a trip hazard? Maybe recharging should be restricted to dedicated areas, like car parks and fuel stations?

KCross

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I suppose the fundamental question would be around why public street space should be given over to storage and fueling of private vehicles?

Because the car will be there anyway. The spaces should not be dedicated to EVs, just EV capable and unobtrusive as possible.

There are some low profile charge points that don’t ruin the aestethic of the street and of course the ultimate wireless charging option down the line.

charlieIRL

I could never use a charging point like that with the eGolf, because of where the charge point is, the cover sticks out a lot when charging.
I’d be afraid someone could bump off it by accident and knock it off

galwaytt

the Norwegians don't seem to be in the slightest bothered about it: I noticed trailing leads in a few place, but only took pic of one: https://photos.app.goo.gl/GRHcVpVynP4T5FM6A

This car had the lead to the charger, then an extension lead across the grass....and up to the 2nd floor balcony of an apartment block......can you just imagine the rí-rá if someone did that here....

timsey tiger

They prob. a lot fewer Maria Bailey types and maybe a legal system that is more fit for purpose.

AndrewJRenko

KCross wrote: »

Because the car will be there anyway. The spaces should not be dedicated to EVs, just EV capable and unobtrusive as possible.

There are some low profile charge points that don’t ruin the aestethic of the street and of course the ultimate wireless charging option down the line.

I suppose that might open up a broader question as to why the car is there anyway - why we allow storage of private property on public streets - but that is probably beyond the scope of this thread.

Mickeroo

Seems like a bit of a non issue. Most (all?) on street chargers here are positioned where the cable doesn't cross the path.

Silent Running

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I suppose that might open up a broader question as to why the car is there anyway - why we allow storage of private property on public streets - but that is probably beyond the scope of this thread.

You've a very blinkered, Dublin based mindset. My local town is Wexford. It is very much alive because people drive into in from around the county. There's sod all in the way of public transport. Parking is provided at a cost, essentially the county council and private providers get an income from it.

I know you're one of those militant cyclists, but you should learn to accept that other forms of transport are necessary.

KCross

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I suppose that might open up a broader question as to why the car is there anyway - why we allow storage of private property on public streets - but that is probably beyond the scope of this thread.

It sure is!

But if you think we can get rid of all those cars and magically replace them with something else Im all ears.. open up a new thread on that, I'm sure it will be hotly debated for those of us with no Luas (or even a bus would be good!) at our door!

AndrewJRenko

Silent Running wrote: »

You've a very blinkered, Dublin based mindset. My local town is Wexford. It is very much alive because people drive into in from around the county. There's sod all in the way of public transport. Parking is provided at a cost, essentially the county council and private providers get an income from it.

I know you're one of those militant cyclists, but you should learn to accept that other forms of transport are necessary.

Removing parking from public streets doesn't stop people from driving. It makes it a little bit more difficult as people have to find their own storage for their own property, but they can still drive.

And yes, the Councils do get an income from it, which is probably why some of them have been so resistant to move on from 1970s car-bound thinking when it comes to urban planning.

KCross wrote: »

It sure is!

But if you think we can get rid of all those cars and magically replace them with something else Im all ears.. open up a new thread on that, I'm sure it will be hotly debated for those of us with no Luas (or even a bus would be good!) at our door!

The objective isn't to 'get rid of all those cars'. But if you can achieve 'modal shift' - get SOME of those cars off the road, that makes a very positive different to traffic, to the environment and to public health.

Many car journeys are easily walked, cycled or scooted. IIRC, >60% of car journeys are <4km from the last Census. So replacing storage facilities for private property (parking bays) with safe, segregated cycle lanes is a great way to achieve some modal shift.

Or you can follow the BusConnects model, of providing a decent integrated bus network, and ensuring that buses of 50-70 people get priority of cars with 1.2 occupancy rates makes bus travel an attractive option.

Silent Running

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Removing parking from public streets doesn't stop people from driving. It makes it a little bit more difficult as people have to find their own storage for their own property, but they can still drive.

And yes, the Councils do get an income from it, which is probably why some of them have been so resistant to move on from 1970s car-bound thinking when it comes to urban planning.



The objective isn't to 'get rid of all those cars'. But if you can achieve 'modal shift' - get SOME of those cars off the road, that makes a very positive different to traffic, to the environment and to public health.

Many car journeys are easily walked, cycled or scooted. IIRC, >60% of car journeys are <4km from the last Census. So replacing storage facilities for private property (parking bays) with safe, segregated cycle lanes is a great way to achieve some modal shift.

Or you can follow the BusConnects model, of providing a decent integrated bus network, and ensuring that buses of 50-70 people get priority of cars with 1.2 occupancy rates makes bus travel an attractive option.

The part in bold might apply to Dublin and suburbs, but it's absolute rubbish when applied to rural Ireland.

You're just confirming your Dublin = Ireland views. Maybe you should get out of the city for a while. Without cars, most shoppers in Wexford would be unable to go there, for most there is no other option... none. The town and it's commerce would die. This would apply to most rural towns and villages. A journey of 30kms to shop wouldn't be unusual.

If you can't be realistic about transport outside your little Dublin bubble, maybe you shouldn't display your lack of knowledge about all Ireland transport problems.

Silent Running

Mickeroo wrote: »

Seems like a bit of a non issue. Most (all?) on street chargers here are positioned where the cable doesn't cross the path.

Yes, but the cable going between the charger and the car is still a trip hazard if pedestrians cross the road and pass between your car and the footpath... and they do, as I've observed.

loopymum

Silent Running wrote: »

Yes, but the cable going between the charger and the car is still a trip hazard if pedestrians cross the road and pass between your car and the footpath... and they do, as I've observed.

It's a bit like dunt push the red button out of FR Ted

AndrewJRenko

Silent Running wrote: »

The part in bold might apply to Dublin and suburbs, but it's absolute rubbish when applied to rural Ireland.

You're just confirming your Dublin = Ireland views. Maybe you should get out of the city for a while. Without cars, most shoppers in Wexford would be unable to go there, for most there is no other option... none. The town and it's commerce would die. This would apply to most rural towns and villages. A journey of 30kms to shop wouldn't be unusual.

If you can't be realistic about transport outside your little Dublin bubble, maybe you shouldn't display your lack of knowledge about all Ireland transport problems.

The Census data suggests that perhaps I'm not quite so ignorant of life outside Dublin. It shows hundreds of thousands of people outside Dublin who do work commutes of less than half an hour daily.



And yes, I know there are people who do long commutes and long journeys for shopping. Some of these distances are becoming more realistic by bike with the growth in eBikes and eCargoBikes.



Though as explained above, the issue raised is not about bikes working for everybody, but they certainly can work for some people.