Detecting water usage without a meter.

pablo128

This is a question for any plumbers out there. It actually originates from another thread but I said I'd ask here.

Is there a way to determine water usage in a household if there are no meters in the area? One poster thinks a plumber can tell if a house is exceeding their allowance. Other posters doubt this. All replies appreciated.

whizbang

Old school water inspectors used to carry a listening rod (with a cup attached to one end, which you put your ear to).

I had a pal could tell you how many toilets and sinks were in use in your house, by just listening to your water main.
I had a go, was amazed at the different sounds each device makes.

Generally, all the old school water guys could tell you how much water you are using, and how much leaking.

whizbang

https://www.flickr.com/photos/styopaquidnunc/9521048745

Sorry cant get image to work..

astrofool

Fluid dynamics is a relatively old science and well understood, there's a thousand and one ways to measure or detect flow through a pipe, but you could call them all a "meter" of some sort, i.e. measuring change over time, guess is, the question is can you measure water through a pipe without an Irish water meter buried in the ground and attached to a household pipe, and a quick google for "how to measure flow through a pipe" will yield many results, mechanically like a regular meter, using ultrasound, devices inserted into a pipe, or strapped around a pipe, among others, all depends on the aim of the measuring.

charlie14

whizbang wrote: »

Old school water inspectors used to carry a listening rod (with a cup attached to one end, which you put your ear to).

I had a pal could tell you how many toilets and sinks were in use in your house, by just listening to your water main.
I had a go, was amazed at the different sounds each device makes.

Generally, all the old school water guys could tell you how much water you are using, and how much leaking.

Even though it gave me a good laugh, will you get up the yard.



There is no way on God`s green earth listening with an ear trumpet to a connection coming off the mains you can tell how much water a household uses, and if there is a leak, how much is being lost.

charlie14

whizbang wrote: »

https://www.flickr.com/photos/styopaquidnunc/9521048745

Sorry cant get image to work..

It worked fine for me anyway.

Really not having a go at you here, but over all these threads dealing with water charges and the massive amounts of revenue waste, that has to be the single most amusing post on any of them.

John.G

Are you sure that chap isn't a water diviner rather than a divine water finder?.

charlie14

John.G wrote: »

Are you sure that chap isn't a water diviner rather than a divine water finder?.

That or very hard of hearing maybe.

whizbang

Electronic leak finders werent developed until mid 80's. Even then it was more of an amplified stethoscope. Still relied on the operator listening to the sound.
It wasn't until mid 90's that councils stopped employing 'listeners'( i dont know the proper titles) How else were leaks pinpointed?

There is very little household equipment makes the same noise as a hole in a pipe thats pissing (hissing) out.
I dont need to remind ye how far sound travels in a pipe.

Have a go someday. Its really easy to hear the difference between a toilet flushing, and a kitchen tap.

charlie14

whizbang wrote: »

Electronic leak finders werent developed until mid 80's. Even then it was more of an amplified stethoscope. Still relied on the operator listening to the sound.
It wasn't until mid 90's that councils stopped employing 'listeners'( i dont know the proper titles) How else were leaks pinpointed?

There is very little household equipment makes the same noise as a hole in a pipe thats pissing (hissing) out.
I dont need to remind ye how far sound travels in a pipe.

Have a go someday. Its really easy to hear the difference between a toilet flushing, and a kitchen tap.

Not with a fiddlers though in calculating what water is used in a household unless you sit out beside the connection to the mains 24/7 X 52 and try to work out what each application in the house is using each time it is used.

pablo128

charlie14 wrote: »

Not with a fiddlers though in calculating what water is used in a household unless you sit out beside the connection to the mains 24/7 X 52 and try to work out what each application in the house is using each time it is used.

Which is exactly what I'm trying to establish.

I'd like to thank any contributors to the thread so far.

mycro2013

pablo128 wrote: »

Which is exactly what I'm trying to establish.

I'd like to thank any contributors to the thread so far.

I know it still a water meter but you can get ultrasonic waters which can be just clamped on the house water feed. No installation or plumbing alterations required.

charlie14

mycro2013 wrote: »

I know it still a water meter but you can get ultrasonic waters which can be just clamped on the house water feed. No installation or plumbing alterations required.

Had Irish Water went with that it would have at least not increased the amount of leaks from mains.
Cork County Council alone have had to fix leaks at 375 meter installed by Irish Water.

charlie14

charlie14 wrote: »

Had Irish Water went with that it would have at least not increased the amount of leaks from mains.
Cork County Council alone have had to fix leaks at 375 meter installed by Irish Water.

I'm sure that you have a source for that claim?

charlie14

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm sure that you have a source for that claim?

Like your source that doesn`t need a meter to determine the water used by a household that we have yet to see you mean.:)

Cork Examiner Feb 2017.
Not only had Cork County Council to repair 375 mains leaks because of Irish Water meters, the also had to replace 80 faulty meter boxes.


If you are interested in more of the same they are quite easily found.

astrofool

charlie14 wrote: »

Had Irish Water went with that it would have at least not increased the amount of leaks from mains.
Cork County Council alone have had to fix leaks at 375 meter installed by Irish Water.

Those water meters were designed to aid collection, I think they also were looking at being able to upgrade the counter to collect the readings wirelessly in the future, but may be imagining that bit.

For excess usage you can monitor at the district level mains, than slap on the ultrasonic meters to narrow down where the usage is occurring, those meters are really a temporary measure and probably good for a year or so (the advantage being that IW can sneak in and attach it at night without the homeowner knowing, so now you need a 24 hour IW watch )

charlie14

astrofool wrote: »

Those water meters were designed to aid collection, I think they also were looking at being able to upgrade the counter to collect the readings wirelessly in the future, but may be imagining that bit.

For excess usage you can monitor at the district level mains, than slap on the ultrasonic meters to narrow down where the usage is occurring, those meters are really a temporary measure and probably good for a year or so (the advantage being that IW can sneak in and attach it at night without the homeowner knowing, so now you need a 24 hour IW watch )

A mad idea, but sure I`ll throw it out anyway


50% of mains leaks are from mains.
When you get an indicator from a district meter, slap on the old ultrasound and look for the largest source of leakage. 9 times out of ten it will be a mains leak.
Rather than piddling around looking for households that are exceeding their limits, stop wasting, time, money and man hours and like any company does sort your major problem before messing around with a minor problem.

charlie14

charlie14 wrote: »

A mad idea, but sure I`ll throw it out anyway


50% of mains leaks are from mains.
When you get an indicator from a district meter, slap on the old ultrasound and look for the largest source of leakage. 9 times out of ten it will be a mains leak.
Rather than piddling around looking for households that are exceeding their limits, stop wasting, time, money and man hours and like any company does sort your major problem before messing around with a minor problem.

Mains pipes ARE being replaced all over the country. If the other 50% of mains leaks are on private property, then why aren’t ye clamouring for those to be fixed?

Your arguments are making no sense at all.

Sleeper12

Deleted User wrote:

I'm sure that you have a source for that claim?

On my road alone, I know of five leaks at the water meter within 6 months of them being installed. My own meter was one of them. There are less than 60 houses on my road. Dublin 5 area.

I'm in favour of paying for water but there is no doubting that Irish water is responsible for 1000s upon 1000s of leaks.

listermint

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Mains pipes ARE being replaced all over the country. If the other 50% of mains leaks are on private property, then why aren’t ye clamouring for those to be fixed?

Your arguments are making no sense at all.

You do realise they broke a hell of alot of eggs with the meter installs.

A heeeellll of alot.

charlie14

Deleted User wrote: »

Mains pipes ARE being replaced all over the country. If the other 50% of mains leaks are on private property, then why aren’t ye clamouring for those to be fixed?

Your arguments are making no sense at all.

They always have been.
Mains on private property are those of private water schemes.
Nothing to do with the subject under discussion.

Sleeper12

listermint wrote:

You do realise they broke a hell of alot of eggs with the meter installs.

The killer for me is that the 1000s of leaks they created installing meters are used to inflate the number of leaks the meters detect and the number of leaks they repair.

Yes the meters detected the leaks but the leaks wouldn't be there if they hadn't installed the meter in the first place! The installation of the meters was very poor quality workmanship. They used cheap push on fittings.

astrofool

charlie14 wrote: »

A mad idea, but sure I`ll throw it out anyway


50% of mains leaks are from mains.
When you get an indicator from a district meter, slap on the old ultrasound and look for the largest source of leakage. 9 times out of ten it will be a mains leak.
Rather than piddling around looking for households that are exceeding their limits, stop wasting, time, money and man hours and like any company does sort your major problem before messing around with a minor problem.

You're probably letting the other thread sneak into here, better to take your findings back there (they are already fixing the mains as you said, there's bandwidth to do both).

charlie14

astrofool wrote: »

You're probably letting the other thread sneak into here, better to take your findings back there (they are already fixing the mains as you said, there's bandwidth to do both).

Why do you feel I should do that ?



This thread is titled "Detecting water usage without a meter" and from my understanding of the stated reason it was started it was directly related to how Irish Water have no means of measuring water usage without a meter.


As such as a means of achieving this, then if it makes no practical sense, (or indeed more importantly economic sense) then is it not pointless ?

astrofool

charlie14 wrote: »

Why do you feel I should do that ?



This thread is titled "Detecting water usage without a meter" and from my understanding of the stated reason it was started it was directly related to how Irish Water have no means of measuring water usage without a meter.


As such as a means of achieving this, then if it makes no practical sense, (or indeed more importantly economic sense) then is it not pointless ?

By definition, it's an instrument for measuring, so it's impossible to measure something without some sort of meter, so the answer is that a meter has to be used to measure anything. However an IW meter is not required for water measuring if the goal is not for recurring billing, if it's just for excess usage, there's many methods that can be used to figure it out.

charlie14

astrofool wrote: »

By definition, it's an instrument for measuring, so it's impossible to measure something without some sort of meter, so the answer is that a meter has to be used to measure anything. However an IW meter is not required for water measuring if the goal is not for recurring billing, if it's just for excess usage, there's many methods that can be used to figure it out.

So lets be quite clear here shall we ?

The discussion here is not about individual households without IW meters determining from discussion the most accurate and best value meters for their own use.

It is about what meters IW could use for determining which households are exceeding their allowance and billing them for such.
In which case (without even touching on the possible legal complications) my points stand.

Irish Water is solely funded by the taxpayer, so as such I feel that it is more than reasonable being such a taxpayer, that in discussion of such meters then the practicality, and especially the potential costings involved, are part of the discussion.

astrofool

From a practical point of view, if you don't need recurring billing, flow detection through a pipe can be done very quickly, easily and in a non-invasive way (given that most properties should have a stopcock available where the pipe flows in and out, and if not, a hole can be quickly dug to find the pipe), the cost of finding and fixing those leaks would be relatively low vs. the cost of replacing water mains (which it would need to be as the leaks would be proportionately lower than those of a mains leak), longer term, as the main line leaks get reduced to some manageable level, the focus will mostly shift to the usage within properties.

Politically, things will happen very slowly and it might be a government or two before they put much focus on households again, but technologically, there's little reason not to.

John.G

They do monitor customer usage (where meter fitted), my neighbour had a leak just a few feet outside his house and IW repaired it FOC.

Spoke to him just there and he said the leak was 1200 Litres/day but from a leakage detection point of view fairly difficult to pinpoint by listening as 1200 LPD is only 0.83 LPM, he told me that they shut off the stop cock in his house and he thinks injected "something" in at the meter and then used a detector to pin point the leak.

charlie14

astrofool wrote: »

From a practical point of view, if you don't need recurring billing, flow detection through a pipe can be done very quickly, easily and in a non-invasive way (given that most properties should have a stopcock available where the pipe flows in and out, and if not, a hole can be quickly dug to find the pipe), the cost of finding and fixing those leaks would be relatively low vs. the cost of replacing water mains (which it would need to be as the leaks would be proportionately lower than those of a mains leak), longer term, as the main line leaks get reduced to some manageable level, the focus will mostly shift to the usage within properties.

Politically, things will happen very slowly and it might be a government or two before they put much focus on households again, but technologically, there's little reason not to.

Leaks on the household side of the boundary per volume of water lost are much lower than those from mains leakage.

Even Irish Water have admitted this.


I just haven`t seen anything here to even suggest that it make any economic sense or practical sense to seek out household side leaks rather than mains leaks.
Household side leaks will require some sort of metering if there is none, which will add to the cost, whereas none is need and the means of detection are the same for mains leaks where the majority is water is lost.


Why go through a more a expensive process to detect minor leaks, when for less money using the same technique you can locate and repair major leaks!
It just does not make practical or economic sense.


The technology was always there with Irish Water`s meters if you wished to determine if you had a household side leak, but that was not their primary purpose.

Their primary purpose was to charge for water usage.



Unless you envisage those couple of governments each lasting for a generation, then after the complete shambles that was made of it, Irish Water and water metering are so toxic in the public view no government will touch it any sooner.

astrofool

It's not an either/or, both can be done effectively and be economic for the taxpayer, and as they fix the mains leaks, it makes it easier to find the domestic leaks.

Reality is that the system will be allowed to deteriorate until metering and charging comes back, both to reduce wastage and to make it pay for itself (either as a flat rate via property tax, or a metered rate where those that use the most, pay the most).

Hoping that the science of measuring water flow is too "expensive" to be worth doing does not make it so.

pablo128

Just to recap so far, it appears that it is not possible to calculate if a household is exceeding it's allowance if the property is unmetered, or at least if the properties along a street are unmetered.

Would that be accurate?

charlie14

pablo128 wrote: »

Just to recap so far, it appears that it is not possible to calculate if a household is exceeding it's allowance if the property is unmetered, or at least if the properties along a street are unmetered.

Would that be accurate?

That would be it in a nutshell.

astrofool

Talk about echo chambers

pablo128

astrofool wrote: »

Talk about echo chambers

It's the plumbing forum. It's clearly not going to be as busy as other forums.

charlie14

pablo128 wrote: »

It's the plumbing forum. It's clearly not going to be as busy as other forums.

Has a plumber actually posted here ?

pablo128

charlie14 wrote: »

Has a plumber actually posted here ?

Dunno. It's been 5 days. I say give it another week just to be fair.

Maybe maryanne84 could ask her mate to contribute to the thread.