Comparing the VW ID.3 and Tesla Model 3

gally74

is there any ID3 actually on display in ireland?

EVGuy

gally74 wrote: »

is there any ID3 actually on display in ireland?

The only one seen was the one from the motor show that was at the invite-only event.

The boot is small, no frunk and expensive for the spec vs SR+ M3 IMO.

EV2020

EVGuy wrote: »

The only one seen was the one from the motor show that was at the invite-only event.

The boot is small, no frunk and expensive for the spec vs SR+ M3 IMO.

All EVs are to be welcomed, as every single one means one less toxic fume belching vehicle on the roads.

However the ID3 has three main issues in my humble opinion:

1) they can't get the software stack working properly - it will ship without the intended OTA capability

2) Charging is too slow for long distance driving. It's limited to 100kwh which is ridiculous for a mid-2020 release car

3) VW lied, cheated and broke the law. So why reward them with your hard earned cash?

I was gonna say(4) dependency on 3rd party, sometimes infuriating and unreliable charging networks, but VW aren't alone in that.

Old diesel

Re the VW vs M3.

VW around 13 k cheaper for 58 kwh in the lowest price 1st edition.

100 kw is perfectly acceptable.

VW allows you deal with dealers in the normal way, talk easily to someone if an issue. None of the faff that accompanys Tesla.

Id still have the Tesla if I could afford the extra money mind.

Tesla advantages

exterior and interior styling are on a different planet (ie Tesla a LOT nicer).

Supercharging is great if they are on your regular routes.

Better performance.

THAT touch screen.

Gear selector better placed then VW.

Feels a special car Vs ID3 - yes we aren't comparing like with like - in ICE car context it's like comparing a Golf to a G20 3 series. But still.

liamog

All of your point's are a little bit off target.

EV2020 wrote: »

1) they can't get the software stack working properly - it will ship without the intended OTA capability

The OTA requires a single trip to the dealers to enable, the stories re software delays are mostly down to a complete misunderstanding. The rumours for at least 18 months have been, Cars enter production end of 2019, for delivery in summer 2020. The hardware needs to be finished by the start of production, but the software can be developed right up till day 0, why would you waste 6 months of software development? My hope is that the OTA update will be available for installation during handover, but it's not too onerous to drop it into the dealers for its first update.

EV2020 wrote: »

2) Charging is too slow for long distance driving. It's limited to 100kwh which is ridiculous for a mid-2020 release car

Using indicated figures, charging is around 600 km/h at peak, it's not quite at the Model 3 level, but it's still a respectable number, that's likely to be at the fastest of any non Tesla EV in 2020.

EV2020 wrote: »

3) VW lied, cheated and broke the law. So why reward them with your hard earned cash?

So did, Daimler, BMW, Nissan, FCA etc... basically every manufacturer was involved in falsifying diesel emissions, the big difference for VW is that they were spearheading a push for non-commercial diesel in the US. The EPA found it easy to scapegoat them. At least they've taken the beating as an opportunity to invest heavily in electrification. What do you currently drive?

EV2020 wrote: »

I was gonna say(4) dependency on 3rd party, sometimes infuriating and unreliable charging networks, but VW aren't alone in that.

VW is a founding member of Ionity, and also have experience with Electrify America, granted Ionity needs a fair bit of work on the reliability front, but at least their is investment their.

liamog

I do find the ID.3 vs Model 3 comparison's a little off-kilter, but it's popped up in a few threads, so it seems people want to discuss.

One is a premium sedan starting at around €50,000, the other is a compact family hatchback starting at around €30,000. ID.3 is aimed at ICE purchasers who would have previously considered the Golf/Focus. The Model 3 is aimed at people who would have bought the BMW 3 Series / Audi A3 etc. What seems to often be missed by posters on this forum is that there is space for many cars, and many types of car in the market. Cars are not a rational purchase, we buy as much with our heart as our head. For some, straight-line performance is the be-all and end-all, for others, it's the interior comfort.

What's important to me, will not be important to the likes of Mike9832 who seems to be more interested in raw performance stats, and some of the other posters who only care about utility per €.

ted1

Old diesel wrote: »

Re the VW vs M3.

VW around 13 k cheaper for 58 kwh in the lowest price 1st edition.

100 kw is perfectly acceptable.

VW allows you deal with dealers in the normal way, talk easily to someone if an issue. None of the faff that accompanys Tesla.

Id still have the Tesla if I could afford the extra money mind.

Tesla advantages

exterior and interior styling are on a different planet (ie Tesla a LOT nicer).

Supercharging is great if they are on your regular routes.

Better performance.

THAT touch screen.

Gear selector better placed then VW.

Feels a special car Vs ID3 - yes we aren't comparing like with like - in ICE car context it's like comparing a Golf to a G20 3 series. But still.

13k cheaper for 58kwh, but Tesla have better battery technology and efficiency so can go further in the same.

Tesla are proven technology , ID batteries and motors are unproven
Tesla area available, apparently ID have a software issue which means that the cars are being stored before they can be sold.

VW dealers have a steep learning curve to learn about EVs

liamog

VW has been making publically available EVs since 2013, they are also using commodity batteries from LG Chem, probably a little unfair to say it's unproven tech.

Lumen

The Tesla is the only car I've driven where the infotainment system was good enough that I didn't want to use my phone instead.

Voice commands have probably removed the last annoying features of the Model 3, like having to fish around in the settings to open the glovebox or frunk. Still an issue from outside the car, but maybe Google Assistant and/or Tasker/NFC can help with that.

The ID.3 is mostly an unknown quantity by comparison. I do not trust motoring journalists to give honest reviews of new cars. This is an opinion formed from decades of experience.

I'm sure the VW is fine, but I've always found VW to be an unappealing combination of boring and expensive.

Mike9832

ted1 wrote: »

13k cheaper for 58kwh, but Tesla have better battery technology and efficiency so can go further in the same.

Tesla are proven technology , ID batteries and motors are unproven
Tesla area available,

I'm a huge Tesla fan but alot of that is just Tesla fanboy hype

Tesla does not have superior battery technology

In fact its inferior,

They use cheap NCA chemistry that is more flammable and used in laptops from 90/00's, it's cheap and energy dense, that's why they use it, nothing exotic, they get it cheap from Panasonic

Every other car manufacturer uses nmc battery chemistry that has is less flammable, higher cycle life and doesnt require advanced cooling systems from top tier companies like LG, Samsung etc

Teslas cars are more efficient mainly from aesthetics, in same form factor even the Koreans with no EV experience made a more efficient saloon EV ( Ioniq)

ID3 is a hatchback and won't be as efficient as a saloon Model 3

ID3 does have a bigger battery 58kWh vs about 52kWh in Model 3, they'll have similar range and be 15k cheaper

Tesla had huge problems in the past with drive units dieing, they still do, alot of people think the motors are pushed too hard to reach those acceleration figures

Its very very rare for the likes of Nissan, VW to have drive units fail, I've never heard of an eGolf motor failing myself, think they are made by Bosch

VW will be more reliable than Tesla imo, Tesla are at the bottom of every reliability survey

Lumen

Mike9832 wrote: »

VW will be more reliable than Tesla imo, Tesla are at the bottom of every reliability survey

Source?

Mike9832

Lumen wrote: »

Source?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/techcrunch.com/2019/11/14/consumer-reports-puts-tesla-model-3-model-s-back-on-its-recommended-list-after-reliability-improves/amp/

Maximo23

Sorry Mike according to your source Tesla is at 23 and VW at 27, maybe you gave the wrong source .

Mike9832

Maximo23 wrote: »

Sorry Mike according to your source Tesla is at 23 and VW at 27, maybe you gave the wrong source .

VW ICE are crap alright

ted1

Mike9832 wrote: »

Its very very rare for the likes of Nissan, VW to have drive units fail, I've never heard of an eGolf motor failing myself, think they are made by Bosch

VW will be more reliable than Tesla imo, Tesla are at the bottom of every reliability survey

How many EVs drive u it’s have Nissan or VW got out there ?

Lumen

Mike9832 wrote: »

https://www.google.com/amp/s/techcrunch.com/2019/11/14/consumer-reports-puts-tesla-model-3-model-s-back-on-its-recommended-list-after-reliability-improves/amp/

From Consumer Reports, your own source:

The Model 3 is now the fifth most reliable out of 12 luxury compact cars in CR’s ratings of predicted new-car reliability, just below the Audi A3 and above the Acura TLX and Mercedes-Benz C-Class.

https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/tesla-model-3-model-s-regain-consumer-reports-recommendation/

The Bloomberg survey gives more detail

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019-tesla-model-3-survey/

D_BEAR

EVGuy wrote: »

The boot is small, no frunk and expensive for the spec vs SR+ M3 IMO.

Tesla boot space is 425L including front and back. ID3 is between 416-521L depending on battery so not much in it.

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/tesla/model-3/practicality
https://www.carwow.co.uk/volkswagen/news/3841/vw-id-price-specs-release-date

Mike9832

Lumen wrote: »

From Consumer Reports, your own source:



https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/tesla-model-3-model-s-regain-consumer-reports-recommendation/

The Bloomberg survey gives more detail

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019-tesla-model-3-survey/

Against ICE

Students could build an EV more reliable than a modern diesel

Tesla reliability compared to say a generic EV like a Nissan Leaf is lacking

They are way more reliable

Mike9832

ted1 wrote: »

How many EVs drive u it’s have Nissan or VW got out there ?

Nissan have made more than anyone?

Leaf is the most reliable car in the world

Lumen

Mike9832 wrote: »

Leaf is the most reliable car in the world

Do you just make this stuff up?

https://www.whatcar.com/news/2019-what-car-reliability-survey-electric-and-hybrid-cars/n20068

12th out of 15 in this survey.

Mike9832

Lumen wrote: »

Do you just make this stuff up?

https://www.whatcar.com/news/2019-what-car-reliability-survey-electric-and-hybrid-cars/n20068

12th out of 15 in this survey.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/insideevs.com/news/336613/nissan-leaf-named-most-reliable-car-in-survey/amp/

ted1

Mike9832 wrote: »

https://www.google.com/amp/s/insideevs.com/news/336613/nissan-leaf-named-most-reliable-car-in-survey/amp/

That’s New Zealand,. And EVs should be more reliable , no clutch , fly wheels, timing belts , fuel filters, exhaust, etc.

liamog

VW have jost sold their 250,000 electrified vehicle, electric drive units are pretty straight forward 100 year old tech. From a reliability basis there's going to be very little difference between any manufacturer. Its not something that bears consideration when comparing cars.

Joseph SEE

liamog wrote: »

VW have jost sold their 250,000 electrified vehicle, electric drive units are pretty straight forward 100 year old tech. From a reliability basis there's going to be very little difference between any manufacturer. Its not something that bears consideration when comparing cars.

Complete nonsense, Tesla's Model 3 motor is using cutting edge tech. No other car company has such a motor in production and certainly not VW. The 3 motor is a Switched Reluctance Motor that doesn't suffer from torque ripple or cogging.

In short, it's a very cheap motor with a high power to weight ratio as well as being highly efficient.

Mike9832

Joseph SEE wrote: »

Complete nonsense, Tesla's Model 3 motor is using cutting edge tech. No other car company has such a motor in production and certainly not VW. The 3 motor is a Switched Reluctance Motor that doesn't suffer from torque ripple or cogging.

In short, it's a very cheap motor with a high power to weight ratio as well as being highly efficient.

Lol

Do you honestly think autogiants and the likes of bosch etc cant make a comparable motor

Tesla probably buy that motor off a third party like they do everyother part in the car like batteries, wipers etc

If you want to see an advanced motor read about the Porsche Taycan

https://www.google.com/amp/s/jalopnik.com/an-extremely-detailed-look-at-the-porsche-taycans-engin-1837802533/amp

Thats cutting edge tech

Mike9832

ted1 wrote: »

That’s New Zealand,. And EVs should be more reliable , no clutch , fly wheels, timing belts , fuel filters, exhaust, etc.

Exactly

They will all be super reliable compared to ICE

Will a Tesla be more reliable than a VW, Toyota, Hyundai EV

I'm not sure

Teslas Quality control is the customer or was, while the likes of Toyota spend billions on it

liamog

Joseph SEE wrote: »

Complete nonsense, Tesla's Model 3 motor is using cutting edge tech. No other car company has such a motor in production and certainly not VW. The 3 motor is a Switched Reluctance Motor that doesn't suffer from torque ripple or cogging.

In short, it's a very cheap motor with a high power to weight ratio as well as being highly efficient.

Tesla may have made some efficency and performance gains but if you take the time to read my post, you'll see I'm talking about the reliability.
A Tesla electric motor is not going to be any more reliable than an VW electric motor, its not because one is better than the other, it's simply because electric motors are highly reliable already.

Mike9832

Mike9832 wrote: »

Lol

Do you honestly think autogiants and the likes of bosch etc cant make a comparable motor

Tesla probably buy that motor off a third party like they do everyother part in the car like batteries, wipers etc

If you want to see an advanced motor read about the Porsche Taycan

https://www.google.com/amp/s/jalopnik.com/an-extremely-detailed-look-at-the-porsche-taycans-engin-1837802533/amp

Thats cutting edge tech

from what I've read Tesla use that specific motor for fast acceleration which has no business being present in a mainstream car like a Leaf or ID3.
An ID3 is an electric Golf. A model 3 is aimed at the market for a BMW 335i .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US3vccIQn2g

this is a german report but it talks about the motor from the 20 minute mark. You can switch on translation in youtube.
The motor is improved over the e-golf and rotates much faster and weighs about 2/3rds of that motor.
The presenter speculates that there isn't much scope to improve efficiency outside improving the control box which sits atop the motor.

Joseph SEE

liamog wrote: »

Tesla may have made some efficency and performance gains but if you take the time to read my post, you'll see I'm talking about the reliability.
A Tesla electric motor is not going to be any more reliable than an VW electric motor, its not because one is better than the other, it's simply because electric motors are highly reliable already.

I see now that you were emphasising reliability. Even on this I would state that there are quite variable differences between the manufacturers especially when we look at Tesla.

Tesla had fierce reliability issues with their early Model S motors and drivetrains that they constantly glossed over. I think there were a few different sources for their issues one of which was pitting of the motor bearings due to the AC current.

They also had poorly designed fuses that were filled with sand. Supercharging would burn out the little prongs of the fuse. Once enough prongs were damaged the whole fuse would catastrophically fail leaving the car on the side of the road.

gally74

[Deleted User] wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US3vccIQn2g

this is a german report but it talks about the motor from the 20 minute mark. You can switch on translation in youtube.
The motor is improved over the e-golf and rotates much faster and weighs about 2/3rds of that motor.
The presenter speculates that there isn't much scope to improve efficiency outside improving the control box which sits atop the motor.

Great video

Mike9832

liamog wrote: »

Tesla may have made some efficency and performance gains but if you take the time to read my post, you'll see I'm talking about the reliability.
A Tesla electric motor is not going to be any more reliable than an VW electric motor, its not because one is better than the other, it's simply because electric motors are highly reliable already.

Its going to be less reliable

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a30361800/tesla-model-3-long-term-failure-stranded-while-parked/

Press car Model 3 with motor unit failure few days ago

Caranddriver have a huge following

What are the odds of a Nissan, Hyundai press car failing?

Practically zero

They even mention that, they had only an Alfa ever fail on them

Sabre Man

Mike9832 wrote: »

Its going to be less reliable

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a30361800/tesla-model-3-long-term-failure-stranded-while-parked/

Press car Model 3 with motor unit failure few days ago

Caranddriver have a huge following

What are the odds of a Nissan, Hyundai press car failing?

Practically zero

They even mention that, they had only an Alfa ever fail on them

Seems to be an issue with the 12V battery. Happens to other brands as well.

SilverFox2

Mike9832 wrote: »

Its going to be less reliable



Press car Model 3 with motor unit failure few days ago

Caranddriver have a huge following

What are the odds of a Nissan, Hyundai press car failing?

Practically zero

They even mention that, they had only an Alfa ever fail on them

Very useful, thank you for this.

Mike9832

Sabre Man wrote: »

Seems to be an issue with the 12V battery. Happens to other brands as well.

It does but I doubt Toyota would give a press car and have it break down

Sabre Man

Mike9832 wrote: »

It does but I doubt Toyota would give a press car and have it break down

It's not a press car. They leased it.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a29515368/tesla-model-3-long-term-test-begins/

Mike9832

Sabre Man wrote: »

It's not a press car. They leased it.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a29515368/tesla-model-3-long-term-test-begins/

Missed that part, presumed it was press

Old diesel

All cars can fail.

The magazine's don't keep their Mazda diesel long termers long enough for the engines to go bang or the DPF regeneration to dump diesel in the oil.

There is a thread on main Motors section with a guy currently looking to get sorted with Mazda and his dealer over DPF/diesel in the oil issues.

Someone in that thread had same issue and spoke to an automotive engineer who knew all about the Mazda issue.

I remember years ago Auto Bild (I think) used to do a 60 k miles long term test with the car totally stripped down at the end.

They put a Peugeot 405 1.9 SRI petrol through the test and that 405 blew it's engine at 5000 miles.

The big problem here is Tesla not getting a loaner car out.

If the loaner car was bought out immediately then this is far less of a problem.

Mike9832

Old diesel wrote: »

All cars can fail.

The magazine's don't keep their Mazda diesel long termers long enough for the engines to go bang or the DPF regeneration to dump diesel in the oil.

There is a thread on main Motors section with a guy currently looking to get sorted with Mazda and his dealer over DPF/diesel in the oil issues.

Someone in that thread had same issue and spoke to an automotive engineer who knew all about the Mazda issue.

I remember years ago Auto Bild (I think) used to do a 60 k miles long term test with the car totally stripped down at the end.

They put a Peugeot 405 1.9 SRI petrol through the test and that 405 blew it's engine at 5000 miles.

The big problem here is Tesla not getting a loaner car out.

If the loaner car was bought out immediately then this is far less of a problem.

Yes ICE are rubbish

Rarely hear of a Leaf, Ioniq, eGolf etc failing, yet we hear lots of Tesla's

Think it's fair to say they are the least reliable EV?

Old diesel

We know that Model 3 has issues but incidents of the cars literally being stranded due to a fault are probably still very rare.

Most times a Model 3 has issues - the cars can still be driven.

Lumen

Mike9832 wrote: »

Think it's fair to say they are the least reliable EV?

You keep posting this anecdotal crap so I'll keep posting data to the contrary, notably this incredibly detailed Bloomberg survey.

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019-tesla-model-3-survey/



That's about 30 dissatisfied owners of several thousand. You can hover over every single data point and read the feedback.

Of the 8 most dissatisfied after 30 days, here are the comments, literally the worst things that the most disappointed owners have to say, the most disappointed fraction of one percent.

"N/A"

"Its clearly a start-up type car. Needs mountains of quality improvements to things that should just work. Some things are different just to be different, like the terrible door handles on the outside and silly buttons on the inside. Too complex to use with full hands outside and needlessly complex motors to open the door inside."

"No issues beyond the original defects at delivering. Some rattles that I will be dropping the car off for next week."

"Paint is not durable"

"The car has been great but 7 weeks to get a service appointment in unacceptable and disappointing"

"worried about quality"

"Ongoing software issues give us very low confidence in new features. My wife is the primary driver and refuses to use the advanced features due to the risk."

liamog

Mike9832 wrote: »

Yes ICE are rubbish

Rarely hear of a Leaf, Ioniq, eGolf etc failing, yet we hear lots of Tesla's

Think it's fair to say they are the least reliable EV?

There is way more focus on Tesla, and a lot of vested interests pushing bad news.
If a Tesla motor fails in a forest, and nobody is around to hear it, will we still find out. Yes, seeking alpha will have the post up and probably blame a forest fire on them for good measure.

I'm biting my tongue when I hear my Colleague complain about the secondhand Tesla S he bought out of warranty needing something else repaired.
I try not to listen anymore so that I am not seen as being silently judgemental.

Lumen

liamog wrote: »

If a Tesla motor fails in a forest, and nobody is around to hear it, will we still find out.

Have you read about the e-Niro motor failures?

Kind of off topic but it's interesting how these issues have been completed unreported in the mainstream motoring press, because like every manufacturer they just deal with them under warranty.

30% failure rate if you believe this thread....

https://www.speakev.com/threads/e-niro-clicking-noise.142819/

I'd still buy one though....

btkm8unsl0w5r4

This thread is hilarious and could be published about how the ability to goole things doesn't necessarily give the searcher the capacity to synthesize the information or make unbiased.

All cars have failure rates, all components have failure rates. With a hot item like the model 3 you are very likely to hear about any failures. People do this with BMW as well as there is a cohort of internet people who love any news that is anti BMW. Porsche on the other hand have a ton of catastrophic failures in their cars but somehow keep it mostly under wraps.

Anyway I think the ID3 looks extremely interesting, the new golf looks great so I assume there will be a lot of crossover.