Should prisoners be made to contribute to society?

onetimecypher

They get room and board, at least 3 meals a day, a bed to sleep in, cable TV, gyms, Open University courses @ €6000 pa and MORE welfare and social supports than are available to homeless, low/middle income or indigent people.

Is it not time that CRIMINALS pay for their crimes rather than be paid for them?

DISCUSS

Yurt2

I wish MY TAXES didn't pay for the OP's birthing and rudimentary education. Clearly a misallocation of scarce resources.

*Thatcherite primordial scream*

onetimecypher

No birthing and/or education questions needed.

Simple question of value of life or worth.

If I rob your house and take all your possessions, and I get caught and go to jail,

are you happy that you have nothing, while I have everything that you possessed and I also get to acquire more while in prison, than you can ever aspire to acquire

Mrs OBumble

How do you envisage them contributing, OP?

onetimecypher

onetimecypher wrote: »

MORE welfare and social supports than are available to homeless, low/middle income or indigent people.

Is it not time that CRIMINALS pay for their crimes rather than be paid for them?

DISCUSS

really?
can you show where you got this information?

end of the road

onetimecypher wrote: »

They get room and board, at least 3 meals a day, a bed to sleep in, cable TV, gyms, Open University courses @ €6000 pa and MORE welfare and social supports than are available to homeless, low/middle income or indigent people.

Is it not time that CRIMINALS pay for their crimes rather than be paid for them?

DISCUSS

criminals pay for their crimes by having their liberty taken away, if they are sent to prison.
they don't to my knowledge get any sort of wellfare supports, they would have no need for them given they are in prison.
courses are to help them reintegrate into society, complete non-issue.
gymns, non-issue either, get them exercising and perhapse make life easier for the staff, same with tv, which by the way can be taken away if the prisoners do not comply with the rules.
it would quite likely cost more for us to have prisoners contributing then they could actually bring in via their contributions while in prison.

dubrov

Great idea OP. If someone is down, tax them and remove all supports to keep them down.

I can't wait to see the impact on crime rates

Ronaldinho

Have them spend the rest of their days making Christmas cards.

onetimecypher

end of the road wrote: »

criminals pay for their crimes by having their liberty taken away, if they are sent to prison.
they don't to my knowledge get any sort of wellfare supports, they would have no need for them given they are in prison.
courses are to help them reintegrate into society, complete non-issue.
gymns, non-issue either, get them exercising and perhapse make life easier for the staff, same with tv, which by the way can be taken away if the prisoners do not comply with the rules.
it would quite likely cost more for us to have prisoners contributing then they could actually bring in via their contributions while in prison.

Check via FOI, education, university, open university costs per annum per prison for prisoners @ €6000 per prisoner per annum

Visit any hospital (particularly near a prison) and watch prisoners being escorted directly to doctors/treatment to the detriment of law abiding citizens

Ask about dental/psychological/psychology/educational etc services supplied in prisons that are not available to general public

AND contrary to public belief NONE of the above can be taken away, because the powers that be are too afraid to

If a prisoner gets 10yrs, by just arriving at the prison his sentence is cut to 7.5yrs (used to be for good conduct, but PC judges now say it is guaranteed) and watch them request 33% remission which is always granted, so headline sentence of 10yrs now becomes 6.7yrs.

All appeals and court applications now come at cost to the state, even for high value individuals and drug lords, so the tax payer continues to pay for these scum

Yurt2

onetimecypher wrote: »

No birthing and/or education questions needed.

Oh there's definite questions about the value for money the exchequer got when they paid for your education.

Mark25

The original question doesn't really make sense in that prisoners by definition can't really contribute to society in any major way as the state has decided (probably for a good reason) that they are to be taken out of society by being locked up.

Once that ha[[ens they are in the state's care - not by their own choice 0 and then the state has to look after them and provide accomodation, food and medical services. Its similar for others who the state looks after like those in care, asylum seekers etc. Do you think the State shouldn't provide food, accomodation or medical services for prisoners?

Like someone else asked how would you like to see prisoners "contribute" to society while in prison? Working in the community? Doing charity work?

LoughNeagh2017

Ex criminals have better lives than me, being an autistic male, that is the brutal nature of society. I remember I worked with a man in a factory who used to be in prison for being involved in a fight outside a loyalist pub that resulted in a loyalist dying. Some of us got laid off at Christmas including me but he got asked back to the company in February whereas I was left to rot, however he wasn't actually that bad of a man. There was another man who was a drug dealer who also bragged about cheating on his girlfriend, he was always taking days off and he got asked back to work because he was friends with the boss. I remember he took 2 weeks off once for no reason, we live in a jungle where only tough men survive.

end of the road

onetimecypher wrote: »

Check via FOI, education, university, open university costs per annum per prison for prisoners @ €6000 per prisoner per annum

non-issue, that is to give them skills to try and get them into the work place once released, in an effort to try and keep them from returning to crime.

onetimecypher wrote: »

Visit any hospital (particularly near a prison) and watch prisoners being escorted directly to doctors/treatment to the detriment of law abiding citizens

that is for security and cost reasons.
people would generally be uncomfortable with a prisoner spending signifficant time in the waiting area with them, dispite that prisoner perhapse only committing a very low level crime.
if they are a high risk prisoner, they will need to be back inside as soon as is possible.
prison officers have to be paid and they have shifts, if waiting in the hospital takes them over their shift they will have to be paid overtime.

onetimecypher wrote: »

Ask about dental/psychological/psychology/educational etc services supplied in prisons that are not available to general public

such as?

onetimecypher wrote: »

AND contrary to public belief NONE of the above can be taken away, because the powers that be are too afraid to

yesh, sure.
the powers that be aren't afraid to do anything, they simply recognise the benefits of such services over not providing them, presumably based on various research based on prisons around the world and their outcomes.

onetimecypher wrote: »

If a prisoner gets 10yrs, by just arriving at the prison his sentence is cut to 7.5yrs (used to be for good conduct, but PC judges now say it is guaranteed) and watch them request 33% remission which is always granted, so headline sentence of 10yrs now becomes 6.7yrs.

that's down to government. nothing to do with prisons.

onetimecypher wrote: »

All appeals and court applications now come at cost to the state, even for high value individuals and drug lords, so the tax payer continues to pay for these scum

i have no problem with appeals, things can unfortunately get missed, and there can be technicalities that may mean there are issues needing to be dealt with.

vicwatson

Can’t they still vote whilst incarcerated ?

whisky_galore

vicwatson wrote: »

Can’t they still vote whilst incarcerated ?

Yep, postal vote.

Dots1982

They do in American. They have to do work and get a very small salary.

More here.. https://www.vox.com/2018/8/24/17768438/national-prison-strike-factory-labor

Turtyturd

onetimecypher wrote: »

Check via FOI, education, university, open university costs per annum per prison for prisoners @ €6000 per prisoner per annum

Visit any hospital (particularly near a prison) and watch prisoners being escorted directly to doctors/treatment to the detriment of law abiding citizens

Ask about dental/psychological/psychology/educational etc services supplied in prisons that are not available to general public

AND contrary to public belief NONE of the above can be taken away, because the powers that be are too afraid to

If a prisoner gets 10yrs, by just arriving at the prison his sentence is cut to 7.5yrs (used to be for good conduct, but PC judges now say it is guaranteed) and watch them request 33% remission which is always granted, so headline sentence of 10yrs now becomes 6.7yrs.

All appeals and court applications now come at cost to the state, even for high value individuals and drug lords, so the tax payer continues to pay for these scum

These threads always show how little people know about what actually happens in prison, and you haven’t learned anything since your last thread.

How many prisoners per annum are doing open university courses per prisoner per annum?

Prisoners being prioritised to see doctors is a security issue.

They get bare minimum dental treatments, and likewise school. Most courses would be basic literacy level stuff.

Very few get 1/3 remission and those that do have to show they’ve engaged with services during their sentence.

Everyone should be entitled to appeal. Vast majority of sentences are upheld.

NasserShammaz

Real sc#m rapists, tiger kidnappers kinihan/hutch/feud animals should have their organs harvested for decent people to fulfill their potential. Frankly it's a waste of good organs to feed and water the likes of Larry Murphy or Christy kinihan and keep them alive in prison, not to mention the expense. Use them for the better good they wont change and wot contribute anything other than misery and manly feral runts

bilbot79

Hundred percent. They should be in there working for peanuts and learning the value of honest living at the same time.

end of the road

NasserShammaz wrote: »

Real sc#m rapists, tiger kidnappers kinihan/hutch/feud animals should have their organs harvested for decent people to fulfill their potential. Frankly it's a waste of good organs to feed and water the likes of Larry Murphy or Christy kinihan and keep them alive in prison, not to mention the expense. Use them for the better good they wont change and wot contribute anything other than misery and manly feral runts

thankfully this would be against human rights law.
the tiny expense of keeping these people in prison is worth every penny.

LuasSimon

This is Ireland , contributing to society is only for tax payers . Most if not all prisoners are parasites contributing nothing but wanting everything all courtesy of taxpayers !
It’s all fine if you earn 100k plus but for those on modest salary’s then prisoners / criminals are often better off than modest tax payers without any hassle of working .

punisher5112

Yes, they should contribute and work and learn there is more to life then theft, swindling and murder..... So on and so forth...

El_Duderino 09

I don’t disagree in principle but I don’t want prisoners used as slave labour. That only serves to drive down wages for non prisoners. And it doesn’t incentivise addressing the causes of crime because whoever benefits from prisoners cheap/free labour, will not want the supply of labour to decrease.

Prison is expensive to society. Ideally we would prioritise paying to address the causes of crime in order to minimise the money spent on prisons.

NasserShammaz

end of the road wrote: »

thankfully this would be against human rights law.
the tiny expense of keeping these people in prison is worth every penny.

Worth every penny , jaysus that's gilding the lily.

At least let's hope they're still making dubarry shoes...

Mark25

It's too easy to talk about prisoners/criminals like they are all the same. There are bog differences between gangland heads, Anglo bankers, sex offenders, drug addicts, middle aged women who end up killing a pedestrian while driving etc.

Prison isn't easy for most people and it shouldn't be but it should be a place where people have a chance to deal with whatever caused them to end up there and in most cases get a chance to have a chance to improve things when they get released.

You will always read about those with 200 convictions or whatever but there are plenty that get out and can make a go of life and "contribute" to life when they get out.

I'm out nearly 6 years now and have been working since, contributing to society and went back to college. Am far from perfect but prison made me change my life for the better, not that I felt like that at the time.

El_Duderino 09

Mark25 wrote: »

It's too easy to talk about prisoners/criminals like they are all the same. There are bog differences between gangland heads, Anglo bankers, sex offenders, drug addicts, middle aged women who end up killing a pedestrian while driving etc.

Prison isn't easy for most people and it shouldn't be but it should be a place where people have a chance to deal with whatever caused them to end up there and in most cases get a chance to have a chance to improve things when they get released.

You will always read about those with 200 convictions or whatever but there are plenty that get out and can make a go of life and "contribute" to life when they get out.

I'm out nearly 6 years now and have been working since, contributing to society and went back to college. Am far from perfect but prison made me change my life for the better, not that I felt like that at the time.

Do you think prisons should offer education courses to give the prisoners a chance to do something different when they get out of prison?

radiotrickster

onetimecypher wrote: »

Ask about dental/psychological/psychology/educational etc services supplied in prisons that are not available to general public

That's a myth. Prisoners go on public waiting lists, same as everyone else. They have the same healthcare access as medical card holders. Sure, it's free healthcare that a lot of us don't have but they have no way of paying for healthcare while in prison anyway so they're entitled to it.

Mark25

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Do you think prisons should offer education courses to give the prisoners a chance to do something different when they get out of prison?

Yeah definitely. Most (not all) people in prison don't have much education or didn't finish school. Even with education it can be really hard to get a decent job when you get out. I think education or training (maybe more important) is the best thing you can do in prison. If people are doing something worthwhile they are much more likely to keep their head down and stay out of trouble even in there. Some won't be interested at all but some will and take the opportunity. Iy got me back into "learning" and as I said went to college after getting out.

Del Griffith

onetimecypher wrote: »

are you happy that you have nothing, while I have everything that you possessed

They don't get to keep your possessions.

onetimecypher wrote: »

Ask about dental/psychological/psychology/educational etc services supplied in prisons that are not available to general public

Rubbish

onetimecypher wrote: »

and watch them request 33% remission which is always granted, so headline sentence of 10yrs now becomes 6.7yrs.

Rubbish

bilbot79 wrote: »

They should be in there working for peanuts and learning the value of honest living at the same time.

They already are. Who do you think works in prison kitchens, laundries, cleaning the floors etc etc. What do you think they get paid?

NasserShammaz

Del Griffith wrote: »

They don't get to keep your possessions.



Rubbish



Rubbish



They already are. Who do you think works in prison kitchens, laundries, cleaning the floors etc etc. What do you think they get paid?

Boo fu#kin hoo

Occupational hazard for those that are sentenced the 1 in a hundred time. Make them break rocks forces long g as the law allows no remission...
If your on your 30th conviction the I'm addressing my issues bull**** is just the next level poverty defence vomited up when the judge is there. Or some cnut like Martin nolan is in the chair. Scum is scum

end of the road

NasserShammaz wrote: »

Boo fu#kin hoo

Occupational hazard for those that are sentenced the 1 in a hundred time. Make them break rocks forces long g as the law allows no remission...
If your on your 30th conviction the I'm addressing my issues bull**** is just the next level poverty defence vomited up when the judge is there. Or some cnut like Martin nolan is in the chair. Scum is scum

there are no rocks requiring breaking.
when and where there are, there are machines available to do it which are efficient, quick and cost effective.

Yurt2

Mark25 wrote: »

It's too easy to talk about prisoners/criminals like they are all the same. There are bog differences between gangland heads, Anglo bankers, sex offenders, drug addicts, middle aged women who end up killing a pedestrian while driving etc.

Prison isn't easy for most people and it shouldn't be but it should be a place where people have a chance to deal with whatever caused them to end up there and in most cases get a chance to have a chance to improve things when they get released.

You will always read about those with 200 convictions or whatever but there are plenty that get out and can make a go of life and "contribute" to life when they get out.

I'm out nearly 6 years now and have been working since, contributing to society and went back to college. Am far from perfect but prison made me change my life for the better, not that I felt like that at the time.

Thanks for your contribution (one we don't get enough of tbh). Good to hear your life is back on track and best of luck for 2020.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Mark25 wrote: »

It's too easy to talk about prisoners/criminals like they are all the same. There are bog differences between gangland heads, Anglo bankers, sex offenders, drug addicts, middle aged women who end up killing a pedestrian while driving etc.

Prison isn't easy for most people and it shouldn't be but it should be a place where people have a chance to deal with whatever caused them to end up there and in most cases get a chance to have a chance to improve things when they get released.

You will always read about those with 200 convictions or whatever but there are plenty that get out and can make a go of life and "contribute" to life when they get out.

I'm out nearly 6 years now and have been working since, contributing to society and went back to college. Am far from perfect but prison made me change my life for the better, not that I felt like that at the time.

Thank you. It’s refreshing to hear the perspective of somebody who has been in prison.

Graces7

And they provide thousands of jobs. Prison officers are just the start...

Tell you what; try it for a few weeks than come back ? Not a bed of roses...

Mark25 wrote: »

The original question doesn't really make sense in that prisoners by definition can't really contribute to society in any major way as the state has decided (probably for a good reason) that they are to be taken out of society by being locked up.

Once that ha[[ens they are in the state's care - not by their own choice 0 and then the state has to look after them and provide accomodation, food and medical services. Its similar for others who the state looks after like those in care, asylum seekers etc. Do you think the State shouldn't provide food, accomodation or medical services for prisoners?

Like someone else asked how would you like to see prisoners "contribute" to society while in prison? Working in the community? Doing charity work?

Kermit.de.frog

onetimecypher wrote: »

They get room and board, at least 3 meals a day, a bed to sleep in, cable TV, gyms, Open University courses @ €6000 pa and MORE welfare and social supports than are available to homeless, low/middle income or indigent people.

Is it not time that CRIMINALS pay for their crimes rather than be paid for them?

DISCUSS

Do what the Americans do - throw them on the street. Can't look after themselves? Not our problem.

s7ryf3925pivug

Dots1982 wrote: »

They do in American. They have to do work and get a very small salary.

More here.. https://www.vox.com/2018/8/24/17768438/national-prison-strike-factory-labor

Yeah. Didn't read the link but John Oliver did a piece in it earlier this year. In the USA the problem is the opposite to here. It is profitable to keep prisoners incarcerated. This appears to be a factor in their huge prison population. Just like I have no doubt that resources are a factor in frequent lenient sentencing and early release in Ireland.

Different people respond to different things. Maybe if the compelled labour could be used in some cases and rehabilitation measures in others, depending on what individuals respond to. Ideally there would be no economic reason for decisions in how individual prisoners are treated either way.

El_Duderino 09

Mark25 wrote: »

Yeah definitely. Most (not all) people in prison don't have much education or didn't finish school. Even with education it can be really hard to get a decent job when you get out. I think education or training (maybe more important) is the best thing you can do in prison. If people are doing something worthwhile they are much more likely to keep their head down and stay out of trouble even in there. Some won't be interested at all but some will and take the opportunity. Iy got me back into "learning" and as I said went to college after getting out.

Thanks for giving your perspective and fair play on going to college and getting a things together.

I never really considered the difference between education and training. I’d treat practical training and theoretical education as the same thing. Is there much opportunity for practical training in prison?

This might be controversial but I think people coming from prison should be well trained and prepared to do work that will keep them away from any need for criminal activity. In a way people in prison should have more focused training than the average person. We know the prison population tend to be less well educated than the average and they’re already in prison so they have already turned to crime. So I’d say it makes sense to absolutely ensure they have a real way to make a decent living when they get out.

It’s not just a matter of compassion, it’s about reducing recidivism and crime (which reduces the number of victims). I imagine there will always be some clowns who will never change and that no reason not to provide those facilities for everyone.

onetimecypher

onetimecypher wrote: »

Check via FOI, education, university, open university costs per annum per prison for prisoners @ €6000 per prisoner per annum

Can count on one hand the amount of prisoners I've ever encountered availing of this. Barely any do their Leaving Cert in the school, so wouldn't get too worked up about university.

onetimecypher wrote: »

Visit any hospital (particularly near a prison) and watch prisoners being escorted directly to doctors/treatment to the detriment of law abiding citizens

Incorrect. They wait like anyone else. They also have appointments so arrive just ahead of their meeeting. Quite often, prisoners are held offside in other waiting rooms or on cellular vans and only come through when called. Furthermore, the closer to a hospital a prison is means the hospital staff are far more used to having them and it's just run of the mill.

onetimecypher wrote: »

Ask about dental/psychological/psychology/educational etc services supplied in prisons that are not available to general public

AND contrary to public belief NONE of the above can be taken away, because the powers that be are too afraid to

All prison services like doctor, dentists etc are available through various schemes outside ie medical card.

onetimecypher wrote: »

If a prisoner gets 10yrs, by just arriving at the prison his sentence is cut to 7.5yrs (used to be for good conduct, but PC judges now say it is guaranteed) and watch them request 33% remission which is always granted, so headline sentence of 10yrs now becomes 6.7yrs.

Absolutely wrong information. Just wrong. 1/3 remission is extremely rare. It is not "always guaranteed" so don't know why you wrote that. It's a lie.

I've worked in prisons for the past 12 years so I've an idea what I'm talking about.

end of the road

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Do what the Americans do - throw them on the street. Can't look after themselves? Not our problem.

so what services would we be cutting or even removing, how much of a tax increase would there be, to pay for this idea?
because pay a hell of a lot is what we likely would be doing if this nonsense was implemented.

pablo128

NasserShammaz wrote: »

Boo fu#kin hoo

Occupational hazard for those that are sentenced the 1 in a hundred time. Make them break rocks forces long g as the law allows no remission...
If your on your 30th conviction the I'm addressing my issues bull**** is just the next level poverty defence vomited up when the judge is there. Or some cnut like Martin nolan is in the chair. Scum is scum

Prisoners can and do refuse to work in prison if they don't want to. Take the remission away and the prison would be wrecked in no time.

paleoperson

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Do what the Americans do - throw them on the street. Can't look after themselves? Not our problem.

You're kidding, right?

Americans do not do that at all. They are notorious for having the highest incarceration rate in the developed world, everyone knows that.

The USA never does that.

10fathoms

Grind em all up for fertilizer.

TuringBot47

end of the road wrote: »

criminals pay for their crimes by having their liberty taken away, if they are sent to prison.

No they don't.
Victims don't get anything from them, maybe house/motor insurance that the victims already paid for.

The only thing prison does is give society a temporary break from them.

Assuming they even see prison time, or are on bail and get "consecutive sentences" and can have a "The Purge" style consequence free crime rampages while on bail.

We really need state appointed bailiffs to take say 5 times the value of goods of these scumbags to compensate victims of financial loss.
The criminal asset bureau should be going through their houses after any serious crime.

Irish society/Western society is terribly weak to deal with these internal and externally imported/immigrated threats.

end of the road

TuringBot47 wrote: »

No they don't.
Victims don't get anything from them, maybe house/motor insurance that the victims already paid for.

The only thing prison does is give society a temporary break from them.

Assuming they even see prison time, or are on bail and get "consecutive sentences" and can have a "The Purge" style consequence free crime rampages while on bail.

the punishment handed down for the crime is the payment for the crime.
now you can disagree with specific punishments or feel they aren't hard enough or whatever, but ultimately there isn't going to be a monitary payment for the crime from the criminal as realistically it's not viable.

TuringBot47 wrote: »

We really need state appointed bailiffs to take say 5 times the value of goods of these scumbags to compensate victims of financial loss.
The criminal asset bureau should be going through their houses after any serious crime.

we do need state operated and appointed bailiffs yes, directly employed and paid for. however that is a separate issue to the second part of your suggestion which in all likely hood wouldn't be cost effective and financially viable i have a feeling.
we would have to assume they even have such goods in their house or at easy reach. if they know such goods would be taken then they would use whatever means to get around that which means extra cost. then no doubt they will just commit more, and higher level crime on top of that.
cab to their credit do try and get whatever when they can, but i would suspect that what they are doing is all that can really be done on that score. i would suspect that they only get a tiny amount of what criminals actually have.

TuringBot47 wrote: »

Irish society/Western society is terribly weak to deal with these internal and externally imported/immigrated threats.

actually they aren't weak at all. rather it's an unwillingness to spend the money on the resources required to do it.

Graces7

Have a look at the series from the UK on High Court bailiffs. "Can;t pay; we take it away"

It encapsulates a lot of what you are saying

Also folk here are not seeing the total lack of freedom prison enforces. No going anywhere.

end of the road wrote: »

the punishment handed down for the crime is the payment for the crime.
now you can disagree with specific punishments or feel they aren't hard enough or whatever, but ultimately there isn't going to be a monitary payment for the crime from the criminal as realistically it's not viable.



we do need state operated and appointed bailiffs yes, directly employed and paid for. however that is a separate issue to the second part of your suggestion which in all likely hood wouldn't be cost effective and financially viable i have a feeling.
we would have to assume they even have such goods in their house or at easy reach. if they know such goods would be taken then they would use whatever means to get around that which means extra cost. then no doubt they will just commit more, and higher level crime on top of that.
cab to their credit do try and get whatever when they can, but i would suspect that what they are doing is all that can really be done on that score. i would suspect that they only get a tiny amount of what criminals actually have.



actually they aren't weak at all. rather it's an unwillingness to spend the money on the resources required to do it.