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Episode IX discussion (Spoilers Within)

  • #1
    Registered Users Posts: 7,304 ✭✭✭ AbusesToilets


    Surprised no thread in here on the movie yet. Thoughts on the film, and how it wraps up things?

    I was left fairly deflated afterwards, and especially so when looking back over the story arc it concludes. You can see the general destination the writers wanted the story to end up at, but the choices they made to realise that fell flat for me. Rian Johnson really messed up everything imo, with his story decisions in TLJ.

    General thoughts:

    - they should've started the trilogy earlier chronologically. Show us Ben as an apprentice with Luke. Give us some sense of the creeping darkness invading his thoughts. It would also have allowed them to build up to the reveal of Sheevs return. Luke could've sensed a disturbance etc.

    - More Luke period, and Leia too. It's a shame that Lucas didn't do this trilogy instead of the prequels. We missed out on a chance to see the OG characters return at an age they were still young enough to participate. The 30secs of Luke and Leia Jedi training together is awesome, shame that's all we'll likely ever get to experience.

    - Rey being Sheevs granddaughter. Just no. Makes no sense at all. Timeline doesn't add up, he'd have to conceived his son during ROTJ or so. It would have made much more sense to her be creation of the Force. It would tie into the creation of Anakin by Plageius, or Sheev. Can't remember where the canon settled on that. Either way, it fits into Sidious' overall efforts to cheat death, and would be a great throwback to his conversation with Anakin in RotS.

    - Speaking of the Chosen One. How do you go the entire trilogy without having him feature at all. It would have been perfect for him to be the one to guide Ben back to the light. So many great options to include him. Could've featured him as a weak voice , trying to influence Ben from turning. A background annoyance for Kylo, play up his conflicted nature. Build up to the scene on Endor where he has his crisis of faith. Ben is finally open to listening, from the one person who knows better than anyone what he's going through. Also would tie in the whole prophecy piece about balancing the force, as Anakin could help redeem Ben to finally see off Sidious.

    - I wanted more force ghosts. Seems kinda silly that they show us Yoda and Luke able to physically interact with the world, then they're absent at the end to help battle Sidious. Opens up huge plot holes in general.

    - Lack of Ashoka. I was really, forlornly, hoping that she would make an appearance.

    - Adam Driver gives an amazing performance. Seriously, I'd argue that Kylo/ Ben is the best character in the series. He's what Anakin in the prequels should've been, if Lucas could write dialogue. The difference in body language and expression when he throws off Kylo and becomes Ben again is perfect.


Comments



  • I posted this a few days ago in the film section of Boards - suffice to say i am re posting here, as i believe this is Coruscant the home of Star Wars Fandom on Boards - i have also added some further thoughts

    Iv long considered that 'blind faith' affects some franchises - particularly Star Trek, Doctor who, and now Star Wars - when i say blind faith, i refer to an episode or film, being very poor, but fans being reluctant to actually acknowledge it, out of loyalty to the franchise. I sincerely believe that is at play here when it comes to this film.

    NOTE - if you enjoyed this film, and the previous one (episode 8) i am genuinely happy for you - i do not begrudge anyone, and i am only giving my opinion. Please feel free to ignore me or discuss

    This was, in my opinion, worse than the prequels - they at least made SOME sense, albeit in a boring way when it comes to TPM and AOTC.. ROTS was excellent and clearly the best of the prequels. But at the very least, almost everything ended up where it was supposed to in the finale of that trilogy.

    But back to this film. The writing was absurd. The Plot was ridiculous. The delivery was abysmal.


    [1] - Palpatine, the best character of the prequel trilogy, was ruined in this farce. His actions in cloning Snoke make no sense. Also we have the Emperor surviving, which would EASILY have kept the Empire alive in some fashion - and yet he decides to run and hide, while Imperial forces throughout the galaxy are wiped out. Why did he need to create and control Snoke? If he is able to drain force energy off powerful force users, why not make a bunch of snokes? and just regenerate himself that way?? I mean out-of-universe, we can answer this question. The reason none of this makes sense is that Palpatine was never supposed to be involved in the sequel trilogy -(i dont believe for a second that Palpatine was ALWAYS going to come back - thats JJ's PR speak) - in universe we see the man who brought down the Jedi, crippled the Republic, brought forth the empire, and almost succeeded in destroying all hope of freedom - become a crazy, zombie like cliche villain, hiding out in the middle of no where - and laughing that this was always the plan.

    [2] - The retcon-ing about Reys family, and Leia being a jedi - again it reeked of damage control after the last film. made very little sense, and even less when you watch it back to back with TFA, and TLJ - continuity is totally destroyed

    [3] - I did not feel that Leia's parts of the film were good - i may be in a minority here, but i feel that when the actress died they should have simply had her character die, either off screen, or in the opening sequence. It felt forced.

    [4]- Kylo turning back - made no sense. I do not see the genuine VADER/LUKE style moment that was needed for him to switch back to the light - which for me destroys his character

    [5] - The ending was laughable. Which for me means the end of the 'Skywalker Saga' was laughable. This Film was billed as topping Return of the Jedi, in that it would complete the 'Trilogy of Trilogies' - I would honestly ask if anyone believes it achieved this -

    [6] - Overall, IMHO, this did not feel like a Star Wars Film at all. Instead it felt like something written by an eager but concerned fan, to make sense of what came about in the last film. This was Fanfic, writ large, and made into the finale of Star Wars the Trilogies -


    Im interested in peoples reactions and whether a cold sober conclusion can be reached over what went wrong. I avoided leaks/spoilers - although i did notice certain headline reviews were scathing -

    I also knew that the hatchet job done by Rian Johnson, on the Last Jedi, hampered the story. I personally have no time for apologists of that film. To basically take the things that interested fans most (Snokes history, Reys backstory) and destroy them in the name of 'subverting expectations' - was entirely unjustified. I consider Johnson to have done it as some kind of Ego trip - but i knew 2 years ago that some serious writing was required to fix Star Wars

    What we ended up with was a total mess in which JJ tried to fix all the issues from TLJ and tie the whole thing up as quickly as possible. Reeked of GOT's finale too - like he had a list of things to do and he got em outta the way as quickly as possible.

    For me it does call the whole sequel trilogy into question.

    Ep7 TFA - basically a rehashed version of A New Hope. I enjoyed it, and suspected many of the mysteries would be revealed in the next movie.

    Ep8 TLJ - Johnson 'subverts our expectations' by telling us the things we were interested in, were not interesting to him. The Sequel Trilogy is hollowed out, and we spend 2 years hoping that JJ can give us a fitting conclusion

    Ep9 TROS - we find out that JJ utterly fails, and this abomination/fan-fiction is the only way he can think of to bring it to a conclusion.

    For me there is a genuine possibility that i will just view Star Wars as being Episodes I - VI - and thats it. complain about the prequels if you like, but the underlying story (which we all knew of in advance - boy becomes jedi - jedi turns bad - kills all the jedi) - the story actually made sense - its execution was poor but the underlying story, and what these films added to the franchise - was acceptable

    The best of the Sequel Trilogy was TFA - the rehash of A New Hope - and lets be frank that was supposed to lead somewhere more exciting - in my view, it didnt.

    Anyway il follow this thread and discuss with anyone who wishes too - and like i said at the beginning, if you enjoyed this film - honestly i could not be happier for you. I did not




  • It leaves me hoping that there will be a Clone Wars esque series to follow, that can redeem the underlying story.




  • It leaves me hoping that there will be a Clone Wars esque series to follow, that can redeem the underlying story.

    I would honestly question the merits of redeeming this using a cartoon series - I think POSSIBLY a few Star Wars anthology Films COULD make sense of things? That IS possible in my view

    But i have to ask the question - do we want original Disney Anthology flicks like Rogue One or Solo, being cancelled in favor of a campaign to 'Fix the Rise Of Skywalker'?




  • liamtech wrote: »
    I posted this a few days ago in the film section of Boards - suffice to say i am re posting here, as i believe this is Coruscant the home of Star Wars Fandom on Boards - i have also added some further thoughts

    Iv long considered that 'blind faith' affects some franchises - particularly Star Trek, Doctor who, and now Star Wars - when i say blind faith, i refer to an episode or film, being very poor, but fans being reluctant to actually acknowledge it, out of loyalty to the franchise. I sincerely believe that is at play here when it comes to this film.

    NOTE - if you enjoyed this film, and the previous one (episode 8) i am genuinely happy for you - i do not begrudge anyone, and i am only giving my opinion. Please feel free to ignore me or discuss

    This was, in my opinion, worse than the prequels - they at least made SOME sense, albeit in a boring way when it comes to TPM and AOTC.. ROTS was excellent and clearly the best of the prequels. But at the very least, almost everything ended up where it was supposed to in the finale of that trilogy.

    But back to this film. The writing was absurd. The Plot was ridiculous. The delivery was abysmal.


    [1] - Palpatine, the best character of the prequel trilogy, was ruined in this farce. His actions in cloning Snoke make no sense. Also we have the Emperor surviving, which would EASILY have kept the Empire alive in some fashion - and yet he decides to run and hide, while Imperial forces throughout the galaxy are wiped out. Why did he need to create and control Snoke? If he is able to drain force energy off powerful force users, why not make a bunch of snokes? and just regenerate himself that way?? I mean out-of-universe, we can answer this question. The reason none of this makes sense is that Palpatine was never supposed to be involved in the sequel trilogy -(i dont believe for a second that Palpatine was ALWAYS going to come back - thats JJ's PR speak) - in universe we see the man who brought down the Jedi, crippled the Republic, brought forth the empire, and almost succeeded in destroying all hope of freedom - become a crazy, zombie like cliche villain, hiding out in the middle of no where - and laughing that this was always the plan.

    [2] - The retcon-ing about Reys family, and Leia being a jedi - again it reeked of damage control after the last film. made very little sense, and even less when you watch it back to back with TFA, and TLJ - continuity is totally destroyed

    [3] - I did not feel that Leia's parts of the film were good - i may be in a minority here, but i feel that when the actress died they should have simply had her character die, either off screen, or in the opening sequence. It felt forced.

    [4]- Kylo turning back - made no sense. I do not see the genuine VADER/LUKE style moment that was needed for him to switch back to the light - which for me destroys his character

    [5] - The ending was laughable. Which for me means the end of the 'Skywalker Saga' was laughable. This Film was billed as topping Return of the Jedi, in that it would complete the 'Trilogy of Trilogies' - I would honestly ask if anyone believes it achieved this -

    [6] - Overall, IMHO, this did not feel like a Star Wars Film at all. Instead it felt like something written by an eager but concerned fan, to make sense of what came about in the last film. This was Fanfic, writ large, and made into the finale of Star Wars the Trilogies -


    Im interested in peoples reactions and whether a cold sober conclusion can be reached over what went wrong. I avoided leaks/spoilers - although i did notice certain headline reviews were scathing -

    I also knew that the hatchet job done by Rian Johnson, on the Last Jedi, hampered the story. I personally have no time for apologists of that film. To basically take the things that interested fans most (Snokes history, Reys backstory) and destroy them in the name of 'subverting expectations' - was entirely unjustified. I consider Johnson to have done it as some kind of Ego trip - but i knew 2 years ago that some serious writing was required to fix Star Wars

    What we ended up with was a total mess in which JJ tried to fix all the issues from TLJ and tie the whole thing up as quickly as possible. Reeked of GOT's finale too - like he had a list of things to do and he got em outta the way as quickly as possible.

    For me it does call the whole sequel trilogy into question.

    Ep7 TFA - basically a rehashed version of A New Hope. I enjoyed it, and suspected many of the mysteries would be revealed in the next movie.

    Ep8 TLJ - Johnson 'subverts our expectations' by telling us the things we were interested in, were not interesting to him. The Sequel Trilogy is hollowed out, and we spend 2 years hoping that JJ can give us a fitting conclusion

    Ep9 TROS - we find out that JJ utterly fails, and this abomination/fan-fiction is the only way he can think of to bring it to a conclusion.

    For me there is a genuine possibility that i will just view Star Wars as being Episodes I - VI - and thats it. complain about the prequels if you like, but the underlying story (which we all knew of in advance - boy becomes jedi - jedi turns bad - kills all the jedi) - the story actually made sense - its execution was poor but the underlying story, and what these films added to the franchise - was acceptable

    The best of the Sequel Trilogy was TFA - the rehash of A New Hope - and lets be frank that was supposed to lead somewhere more exciting - in my view, it didnt.

    Anyway il follow this thread and discuss with anyone who wishes too - and like i said at the beginning, if you enjoyed this film - honestly i could not be happier for you. I did not


    Agree with most of this.

    TLJ was a massive disappointment and to be honest as I expected TROS to be a lot worse due to reviews bad ratings etc, I was going in expecting nothing.

    I was happy though, could have been awful, and it had a lot of faults, but could have been worse.
    It is annoying how easy everything seems for Rey - and the resistance generally, compare Luke/Anakin tough journey to this "in the blood" stuff,
    I guess they made her Palpatine's granddaughter as an explanation but even he had to train hard for decades

    I would have liked more info on how Palpatine survived and cloned Snoke, but I guess they'll cover that in canon books or comics.

    Overall the trilogy slightly dissapointing to me personally, a lot of damage done in TLJ and needed to be quickly fixed for TROS.

    I would have much preferred Snoke being Plageius - that was such a good theory, but I am convinced the writers didn't use it as the fans had worked it out.




  • Another thing I loved about TROS was they embraced the Sith again, in TFA and TLJ it was like it was a dirty word, they didn't want to acknowledge it - I was convinced after TLJ that Disney wanted to move away from that whole era and even cancel/remake the prequels.

    Sith was mentioned once in TFA and Luke mentioned Darth Sidious in TLJ, but almost like they had to and just quickly drop it and move on.

    I liked the 1st scene when Ren found the wayfinder - at first I thought it was a sith holocron .. and I thought - fair play !!!

    OK it wasn't but still ... It did look a lot like it and acted in the same way - passing knowledge from previous generations of Sith.


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  • Agree with most of this.

    TLJ was a massive disappointment and to be honest as I expected TROS to be a lot worse due to reviews bad ratings etc, I was going in expecting nothing.

    I was happy though, could have been awful, and it had a lot of faults, but could have been worse.
    It is annoying how easy everything seems for Rey - and the resistance generally, compare Luke/Anakin tough journey to this "in the blood" stuff,
    I guess they made her Palpatine's granddaughter as an explanation but even he had to train hard for decades

    I would have liked more info on how Palpatine survived and cloned Snoke, but I guess they'll cover that in canon books or comics.

    Overall the trilogy slightly dissapointing to me personally, a lot of damage done in TLJ and needed to be quickly fixed for TROS.

    I would have much preferred Snoke being Plageius - that was such a good theory, but I am convinced the writers didn't use it as the fans had worked it out.
    Another thing I loved about TROS was they embraced the Sith again, in TFA and TLJ it was like it was a dirty word, they didn't want to acknowledge it - I was convinced after TLJ that Disney wanted to move away from that whole era and even cancel/remake the prequels.

    Sith was mentioned once in TFA and Luke mentioned Darth Sidious in TLJ, but almost like they had to and just quickly drop it and move on.

    I liked the 1st scene when Ren found the wayfinder - at first I thought it was a sith holocron .. and I thought - fair play !!!

    OK it wasn't but still ... It did look a lot like it and acted in the same way - passing knowledge from previous generations of Sith.

    On the Sith - yes i was very enthusiastic at their return. I didnt like the dirty word approach in the previous two. i ASSUMED they were going to go a different direction, with Snoke being some kind of 'Proto Sith', which i would have been ok with. However when the original trailer appeared and we heard 'that Sidious cackle', i was literally dying for this movie.

    But the execution of the Sith Plot was insane
    • Since when do the Sith have fleets (for my opinion on canon books/comics see below)
    • What is this nonsense about Rey being inhabited by Palpatine if she kills him? And when she ACTUALLY KILLS HIM, WHY DOES THIS NOT HAPPEN????
    • I cannot for the life of me understand Palps actions after ROTJ - to let the empire crumble - run off to the middle of nowhere - and make Snoke Clones; Snoke claimed he was hundreds of years old in the novel of TFA, and given the look of him- no one questioned that
    • Why did Sidious not simply recruit another apprentice?? Thats what Sith do? That is what he has done in the past??
    • Since when do all previous Sith inhabit the Incumbent Dark Lord?????
    • Again it all reeks of damage control after TLJ - and of no serious interest in continuity - sloppy

    ON Canon Comics and Books

    For me Canon books and comics, and 'other media', serve as exciting extra material for fans. That is how i have always viewed them. I read some from various franchises, and sometimes i enjoy, sometimes i do not

    For me though, a Major Picture, especially a Star Wars one, should not REQUIRE, books, comics, and tie in other media, to explain its plot holes to fans. A Star Wars film should not Need to be fixed to make it FIT IN or MAKE SENSE. The Film should be sufficient, and should be capable of Standing Up alone. This film is so full of holes, that i now feel an attempt will be made to retroactively FIX 'Rise of Skywalker' - to me, if we are at this point a week after its release, thats an abysmal failure.

    Thats not to say that the die hard fans dont always find plot holes - they do! However in all sincerity, this film is so poor, the plot holes manifest clearly to even an average fan of the franchise.




  • liamtech wrote: »
    On the Sith - yes i was very enthusiastic at their return. I didnt like the dirty word approach in the previous two. i ASSUMED they were going to go a different direction, with Snoke being some kind of 'Proto Sith', which i would have been ok with. However when the original trailer appeared and we heard 'that Sidious cackle', i was literally dying for this movie.

    But the execution of the Sith Plot was insane
    • Since when do the Sith have fleets (for my opinion on canon books/comics see below)
    • What is this nonsense about Rey being inhabited by Palpatine if she kills him? And when she ACTUALLY KILLS HIM, WHY DOES THIS NOT HAPPEN????
    • I cannot for the life of me understand Palps actions after ROTJ - to let the empire crumble - run off to the middle of nowhere - and make Snoke Clones; Snoke claimed he was hundreds of years old in the novel of TFA, and given the look of him- no one questioned that
    • Why did Sidious not simply recruit another apprentice?? Thats what Sith do? That is what he has done in the past??
    • Since when do all previous Sith inhabit the Incumbent Dark Lord?????
    • Again it all reeks of damage control after TLJ - and of no serious interest in continuity - sloppy

    ON Canon Comics and Books

    For me Canon books and comics, and 'other media', serve as exciting extra material for fans. That is how i have always viewed them. I read some from various franchises, and sometimes i enjoy, sometimes i do not

    For me though, a Major Picture, especially a Star Wars one, should not REQUIRE, books, comics, and tie in other media, to explain its plot holes to fans. A Star Wars film should not Need to be fixed to make it FIT IN or MAKE SENSE. The Film should be sufficient, and should be capable of Standing Up alone. This film is so full of holes, that i now feel an attempt will be made to retroactively FIX 'Rise of Skywalker' - to me, if we are at this point a week after its release, thats an abysmal failure.

    Thats not to say that the die hard fans dont always find plot holes - they do! However in all sincerity, this film is so poor, the plot holes manifest clearly to even an average fan of the franchise.

    Unfortunately, at this stage, it's left to other authors to stitch some coherent story together from the mess that the movies leave. I get that the original trilogy was made up on the fly, and there are aspects that don't make sense, but the sequels have no excuse for being the way they are. There's rakes of material from the EU they could plunder for plot ideas, no shortage of interested folks to help ensure that the story fits in with previously established canon. Just basic editorial oversight should have prevented some of the plot holes. Really half arsed effort all around.




  • liamtech wrote: »
    On the Sith - yes i was very enthusiastic at their return. I didnt like the dirty word approach in the previous two. i ASSUMED they were going to go a different direction, with Snoke being some kind of 'Proto Sith', which i would have been ok with. However when the original trailer appeared and we heard 'that Sidious cackle', i was literally dying for this movie.

    But the execution of the Sith Plot was insane
    • Since when do the Sith have fleets (for my opinion on canon books/comics see below)
    • What is this nonsense about Rey being inhabited by Palpatine if she kills him? And when she ACTUALLY KILLS HIM, WHY DOES THIS NOT HAPPEN????
    • I cannot for the life of me understand Palps actions after ROTJ - to let the empire crumble - run off to the middle of nowhere - and make Snoke Clones; Snoke claimed he was hundreds of years old in the novel of TFA, and given the look of him- no one questioned that
    • Why did Sidious not simply recruit another apprentice?? Thats what Sith do? That is what he has done in the past??
    • Since when do all previous Sith inhabit the Incumbent Dark Lord?????
    • Again it all reeks of damage control after TLJ - and of no serious interest in continuity - sloppy

    ON Canon Comics and Books

    For me Canon books and comics, and 'other media', serve as exciting extra material for fans. That is how i have always viewed them. I read some from various franchises, and sometimes i enjoy, sometimes i do not

    For me though, a Major Picture, especially a Star Wars one, should not REQUIRE, books, comics, and tie in other media, to explain its plot holes to fans. A Star Wars film should not Need to be fixed to make it FIT IN or MAKE SENSE. The Film should be sufficient, and should be capable of Standing Up alone. This film is so full of holes, that i now feel an attempt will be made to retroactively FIX 'Rise of Skywalker' - to me, if we are at this point a week after its release, thats an abysmal failure.

    Thats not to say that the die hard fans dont always find plot holes - they do! However in all sincerity, this film is so poor, the plot holes manifest clearly to even an average fan of the franchise.


    I remember sith did have fleets before Darth Bane introduced the rule of 2 - now I know this isn't canon, but it is in my head untill they release something to contradict it.


    This inhabiting another sith's body after one kills the other is an idea that is in the EU - check the Darth Bane trilogy.

    But yeah, makes no sense that Rey wasn't inhabited after finally killing Palpatine - and I guess he really is gone now with the nature of him disintegrating ...




  • I remember sith did have fleets before Darth Bane introduced the rule of 2 - now I know this isn't canon, but it is in my head untill they release something to contradict it.


    This inhabiting another sith's body after one kills the other is an idea that is in the EU - check the Darth Bane trilogy.

    But yeah, makes no sense that Rey wasn't inhabited after finally killing Palpatine - and I guess he really is gone now with the nature of him disintegrating ...

    I think it was the killing in anger part that was supposed to the how he would inhabit her. Killing in self defense was the McGuffin they likely use to get around that one.

    All in all, I thought the film was fine. A lot of holes to navigate around, and it very much felt like Abrams was trying to fit both his VIII and IX into this. If they had introduced Palpatine in VIII, it would have been better. I had no issues with him being back, as in fairness, he's an excellent antagonist, and I loved that they were a bit more into Sith lore, but it was too little, too late. We shouldn't need books and comics to explain background for the movie (and it looks like the Kylo Ren comic is going to do the whole Snoke is a clone thing and Palpatine was obviously behind it all)

    Rey as a descendant of ol' Shreev was clearly just stupid. They could have had her be a descendant of Obi Wan (with the whole Satine thing from the Clone Wars) if they really wanted her to have lineage, but I can't even grasp the concept that Palpatine would be into carnal relations, it just doesn't seem to fit into his character. He doesn't portray any hedonistic characteristics, and if she was the offspring of a clone of him who escaped, I'd have an easier time digesting that.

    I'm taking my son to see it on Thursday, so things make improve or deteriorate on the second viewing.




  • chrislad wrote: »
    I think it was the killing in anger part that was supposed to the how he would inhabit her. Killing in self defense was the McGuffin they likely use to get around that one.

    All in all, I thought the film was fine. A lot of holes to navigate around, and it very much felt like Abrams was trying to fit both his VIII and IX into this. If they had introduced Palpatine in VIII, it would have been better. I had no issues with him being back, as in fairness, he's an excellent antagonist, and I loved that they were a bit more into Sith lore, but it was too little, too late. We shouldn't need books and comics to explain background for the movie (and it looks like the Kylo Ren comic is going to do the whole Snoke is a clone thing and Palpatine was obviously behind it all)

    Rey as a descendant of ol' Shreev was clearly just stupid. They could have had her be a descendant of Obi Wan (with the whole Satine thing from the Clone Wars) if they really wanted her to have lineage, but I can't even grasp the concept that Palpatine would be into carnal relations, it just doesn't seem to fit into his character. He doesn't portray any hedonistic characteristics, and if she was the offspring of a clone of him who escaped, I'd have an easier time digesting that.

    I'm taking my son to see it on Thursday, so things make improve or deteriorate on the second viewing.

    That would've been a great throw back. Even with the Sheev angle, they could've presented it as him following Plageuis' teachings, by creating life through the force. Symmetry with Anakin, and consistent with previous established lore. But no, ol Sheev was banging out during RotJ apparently. :rolleyes:


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  • Wow Colin Trevorrow (original director for Ep IX) really had some good ideas ....



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