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Move to civil service?

  • 15-12-2019 5:15pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭✭✭ lkbob


    Hi, I am currently working for a large mnc & for family reasons, am considering making a move to a civil service role if the right job comes up. I have progressed up the org in the last 10 years and know the move will result in a pay cut. Do positions ever become available at say heo level, or anything that would start around €50k? Or would it be a case of starting at ao/eo and working my way up again through internal positions? And second question, I'd probably like to consider reduced hours in the future with a young family. How do these types of positions come up in civil service?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,934 ✭✭✭ Augme


    lkbob wrote: »
    Hi, I am currently working for a large mnc & for family reasons, am considering making a move to a civil service role if the right job comes up. I have progressed up the org in the last 10 years and know the move will result in a pay cut. Do positions ever become available at say heo level, or anything that would start around €50k? Or would it be a case of starting at ao/eo and working my way up again through internal positions? And second question, I'd probably like to consider reduced hours in the future with a young family. How do these types of positions come up in civil service?


    Unless it is a specialised position won't be able to enter the civil service as a HEO, you need two years experience in the civil service to be eligible to apply. Another option is to come in at AP level which is above HEO.

    Reduced hour positions don't come up in the civil service. You need to come in at a full time level and then you need to apply for reduced time. It's not also guaranteed to be successful and probably harder to get at AP level.


  • Registered Users Posts: 35 Sparks15


    lkbob wrote: »
    Hi, I am currently working for a large mnc & for family reasons, am considering making a move to a civil service role if the right job comes up. I have progressed up the org in the last 10 years and know the move will result in a pay cut. Do positions ever become available at say heo level, or anything that would start around €50k? Or would it be a case of starting at ao/eo and working my way up again through internal positions? And second question, I'd probably like to consider reduced hours in the future with a young family. How do these types of positions come up in civil service?

    HEO is generally only open internally unless it is a specialist position as previous poster said. 

    You’d have to start on first point of the salary scale for whichever grade you join at.

    The majority of AO positions are Dublin based. The AO roles are usually advertised annually (around October time) on publicjobs.

    EO and AP grades are also open to external candidates. I think competitions in recent times have been run every two years approx (most recent AP competition in 2018 and EO in 2019).

    All positions are advertised on publicjobs - make sure to set up the relevant alerts so that you’re notified as soon as positions come up.

    Payscales for the various grades available here for comparison: https://circulars.gov.ie/pdf/circular/per/2019/17.pdf

    Like the previous poster, I think it’d probably be difficult to get reduced hours at senior management level. Also, flexitime arrangements are not available from AP grade upwards.


  • Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭✭✭ lkbob


    Thanks for the info folks, that's really helpful.


  • Registered Users Posts: 850 Cakerbaker


    Parental leave would be an option to reduce your working week although it wouldn’t be available straight away. If I remember the circular correctly you should be out of probation before applying although you can put a case forward after 3 months in the role.


  • Registered Users Posts: 837 ✭✭✭ hillbloom


    I am also interested in joining the CIVIL SERVICE possibly as an EO. I am not in the Civil Service. Are all the EO positions in Dublin or are they nationwide. Would anyone have an idea when they will be next advertised. Sorry for all the questions.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭ Lynnington3


    hillbloom wrote: »
    I am also interested in joining the CIVIL SERVICE possibly as an EO. I am not in the Civil Service. Are all the EO positions in Dublin or are they nationwide. Would anyone have an idea when they will be next advertised. Sorry for all the questions.

    It depends on the competition, they can be Dublin only or nationwide.
    There may be an EO competition this year (generally summertime) or possibly not until next year.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,277 ✭✭✭✭ Frankie Freezing Piano


    It depends on the competition, they can be Dublin only or nationwide.
    There may be an EO competition this year (generally summertime) or possibly not until next year.

    Still need to fill the 2019 EO competition.


  • Registered Users Posts: 757 ✭✭✭ rsl1976


    Cakerbaker wrote:
    Parental leave would be an option to reduce your working week although it wouldn’t be available straight away. If I remember the circular correctly you should be out of probation before applying although you can put a case forward after 3 months in the role.


    I joined in April, it's one year probation and you have to have that completed before you can apply for parental leave


  • Registered Users Posts: 301 ✭✭ Nerd Queen


    At AP level just to clarify there is flexi time but not flexi leave. It’s up on the AHCPS - the senior management union website. It’s a great move for family reasons OP I wish you the best of luck. Though as previous posters have stated Dublin is your best bet


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,043 ✭✭✭✭ gmisk


    Nerd Queen wrote: »
    At AP level just to clarify there is flexi time but not flexi leave. It’s up on the AHCPS - the senior management union website. It’s a great move for family reasons OP I wish you the best of luck. Though as previous posters have stated Dublin is your best bet
    I am an AP, no flexi leave but I don't have to clock in or out.
    In CS for 15ish years, it offers me a good work life balance I came in as a CO. I would go for an open competition if it comes up and don't be disheartened if you don't get on the panel in the first go.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭✭✭ lkbob


    gmisk wrote:
    I am an AP, no flexi leave but I don't have to clock in or out. In CS for 15ish years, it offers me a good work life balance I came in as a CO. I would go for an open competition if it comes up and don't be disheartened if you don't get on the panel in the first go.


    Thanks Gmisk. Do you mind me asking, is the culture to work long hours? I'm not afraid to work hard but where I am it wouldn't be uncommon to work 11 or 12 hour days at management level, feel like I'm missing too much time with my kids. & are APs working 4 days (parental leave) or taking up the reduced working year for summers off?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,005 ✭✭✭ Green farmer


    If you went in to the local authorities or hse or universities as a clerical officer, can you later apply for all the internal civil service jobs and move up the same way ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 757 ✭✭✭ rsl1976


    My AP work 4 days a week and generally works 8 - 4 or 9 - 5. I think you have to be in a year before you can do the shorter working week.

    I'm going to be taking one day parental leave in the next few weeks but had to wait till after my probation


  • Registered Users Posts: 432 ✭✭ PCX


    If you went in to the local authorities or hse or universities as a clerical officer, can you later apply for all the internal civil service jobs and move up the same way ?

    No - HSE, Local authorities and University staff are considered public servants and not civil servants. Equally civil servants can't enter internal promotion competitions in those organisations.

    There are generally 3 types of competition for Civil Service roles - internal, interdepartmental and open.

    Internal is for promotion within a department and is only open to current staff in that department.

    Interdepartmental is for promotion across the civil service and is only open to current civil servants (other public servants are not eligible).

    Open is for everyone whether a current civil servant or not (this is the only type that public servants like those you listed would be eligible for).

    Interdepartmental and open competitions (for non specialist roles) are generally run together as one single process. The exception is for the HEO grade where there are generally no open competitions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,094 ✭✭✭ gipi


    rsl1976 wrote: »
    My AP work 4 days a week and generally works 8 - 4 or 9 - 5. I think you have to be in a year before you can do the shorter working week.

    I'm going to be taking one day parental leave in the next few weeks but had to wait till after my probation

    Adjusted hours such as those above may not apply everywhere. In my former department office, the APs were required to work the standard hours - 9-1 and 2.15-5.45 (5.15 on Fridays).


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,005 ✭✭✭ Green farmer


    PCX wrote: »
    No - HSE, Local authorities and University staff are considered public servants and not civil servants. Equally civil servants can't enter internal promotion competitions in those organisations.


    The exception is for the HEO grade where there are generally no open competitions.

    For someone who's a EO, in a local authority, can they apply for a HEO in a university or HSE ? Ie in other public servant sectors. Sorry for the complicated questions. Just trying to get my head around where you could apply, if you wanted to move up the ladder over time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 432 ✭✭ PCX


    For someone who's a EO, in a local authority, can they apply for a HEO in a university or HSE ? Ie in other public servant sectors. Sorry for the complicated questions. Just trying to get my head around where you could apply, if you wanted to move up the ladder over time.

    I doubt that they can apply for each other's internal competitions as they are distinct organisations. I'm open to correction on that though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,687 ✭✭✭✭ Samuel T. Cogley


    For someone who's a EO, in a local authority, can they apply for a HEO in a university or HSE ? Ie in other public servant sectors. Sorry for the complicated questions. Just trying to get my head around where you could apply, if you wanted to move up the ladder over time.


    You can't apply for an internal competition but I thought internal competitions were limited to the civil service? Generally an organisation like a university will hold an open competition even if they have someone in mind for the job. Grades would be different in the University sector also.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,043 ✭✭✭✭ gmisk


    lkbob wrote: »
    Thanks Gmisk. Do you mind me asking, is the culture to work long hours? I'm not afraid to work hard but where I am it wouldn't be uncommon to work 11 or 12 hour days at management level, feel like I'm missing too much time with my kids. & are APs working 4 days (parental leave) or taking up the reduced working year for summers off?
    I will be honest I work pretty much the standard each day, so 9-5 ish, but it varies some days I go in early and leave early, project is still ramping up though so that might change in the future.
    I haven't found a huge change pressure wise tbh from HEO to AP bar a lot more meetings (but thankfully less of these last few weeks).

    I honestly have no clue about the rest of your queries sorry I can't be more help.


  • Registered Users Posts: 488 ✭✭ the-island-man


    Hi,

    I am trying to get a full picture of the benefits of working in the civil service.
    I might be a bit dense but I've seen the Flexi-Time leave mentioned a number of times but don't fully understand it.So in terms of standard time off I see that this is generally in around the 30 days per year plus the bank holidays. I've seen it mentioned that using the Flexi time you could possibly accrue an extra day and a half off per month. How is this done? How many extra hours per week do you have to put in? Does the day and a half get added to your holiday time or does it have to be taken within the month?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 217 ✭✭ Skippette


    Hi,

    I am trying to get a full picture of the benefits of working in the civil service.
    I might be a bit dense but I've seen the Flexi-Time leave mentioned a number of times but don't fully understand it.So in terms of standard time off I see that this is generally in around the 30 days per year plus the bank holidays. I've seen it mentioned that using the Flexi time you could possibly accrue an extra day and a half off per month. How is this done? How many extra hours per week do you have to put in? Does the day and a half get added to your holiday time or does it have to be taken within the month?

    Hi, the amount of annual leave depends on what grade you are.
    For example, a Clerical Officer (CO) will get 22 days, 23 after 5 years and 24 after 10 years. (think there may be more after 12/14 years). A HEO gets 29 days max.

    Flexi leave, was when you could work up the hours 7.24 (day) and half day (3.42) within a four week period and then you take them within the next 4 week period. It was handy if you were trying to make a long weekend and save some of your holidays.

    But since Covid and most people are WFH, Flexi has been suspended. So at the moment staff are generally working the traditional hours (even though core hours are suspended eg 10 -12 and 2-4) for business needs. But if for any reason you need to work odd hours, you can contact your line manager and there shouldn't be any issue. I know of staff, for different reasons, working afternoons and evening and even the odd weekend to make up hours.


  • Registered Users Posts: 488 ✭✭ the-island-man


    I know people may not see that extra day and a half as normal vacation as you have to work the same amount of time you get off but effectively in normal times if you were at HEO level you could have 47 days plus bank holidays where you wouldn't be at work?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,687 ✭✭✭✭ Samuel T. Cogley


    Flexi was reduced to taking one day a month, although you can bank a day and a half. I want to say Haddington Road agreement but I might have the name wrong.

    I am aware though that some areas were still allowing a day and a half.


  • Registered Users Posts: 488 ✭✭ the-island-man


    So the max you can get at HEO level is 41 days holidays plus bank holidays but you only have to work the extra hours 8 out of 12 months? Bit of a bummer but still probably double what most private sector organisations would allow.

    Any sense that they might permanently suspend Flexi-Time or would unions block such a move?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,687 ✭✭✭✭ Samuel T. Cogley


    Just to bear in mind you can't come in at HEO level as it's only available as an internal promotion. Closest to it is AO but that starts at a lower salary initially. AP's and above no longer have flexi if appointed after 2013.

    HEO is 29 max IIRC might be 30 so 41 seems right. You can work up a day and a half so what you say about 8 out of 12 months could be correct.

    Edit: Some areas don't have flexi as a rule - certain departments in AGS for example. Can't see them stopping flexi all together post COVID it would cause a riot.

    Edit 2: There is also the shorter working year which allows a reduction in pay for a reduction in weeks worked.


  • Registered Users Posts: 142 ✭✭ HydroTendonMan


    lkbob wrote: »
    Thanks Gmisk. Do you mind me asking, is the culture to work long hours? I'm not afraid to work hard but where I am it wouldn't be uncommon to work 11 or 12 hour days at management level, feel like I'm missing too much time with my kids. & are APs working 4 days (parental leave) or taking up the reduced working year for summers off?

    It varies depending on the job and Department but the working hours tend to be more sociable than comparable positions in the private sector. Of the 5 APs in my division they generally work 9-5/6. Obviously this could change during a busy period of the year, but generally speaking you will have relatively sociable working hours.

    There are regular HEO positions open to outside candidates if you were willing to consider state bodies as well as the mainstream Civil Service. There are currently two being advertised on Public Jobs at The Arts Council.


  • Registered Users Posts: 670 ✭✭✭ redmgar


    Flexi is still ongoing in some departments.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,334 ✭✭✭✭ mariaalice


    Term-time working and paying it back over the full year is great if you have family responsibilities.

    The best in terms of perks I have ever come across would be a European financial institution very french lots of holiday, very good pension, top health insurance paid for by the company fully paid study fees, with study day off, bonus, etc.

    I also know someone in a pharm company not in sales but the job is related to sales who was offered a Tesla as company care but they did not take it because of
    the BIK.

    At the moment because of covid, both sets get sent things like wine, cheese boards, hampers sent to their homes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,022 ✭✭✭ Meathlass


    I'm an AP in a small Department and generally work 9-6.30pm. This time of the year is very busy though so I'm usually here until 7.30-8pm most nights. I came in as an AO in 2015 and got an internal promotion to AP in 2019.

    I would say it could be difficult to come into the Civil Service at AP level as there's so much to get your head around in terms of PQs, FOIs, briefings for Ministers etc. I don't see many people at AP or PO level in my Department who have shorter working week arrangements.

    Most of my other colleagues at AP level also work to 6pm ish. I'd say this varies considerably through the CS depending on the role.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 230 ✭✭ Galwayhurl


    I'm starting next month as an EO and was told that I will be working from home. For those working from home due to Covid, what are the working hours now that flexi is on hold? I know the hours are 7:24 but how long of a lunch does your manager tell you to take and what time do you start/finish?

    Thanks.


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