Move to civil service?

lkbob

Hi, I am currently working for a large mnc & for family reasons, am considering making a move to a civil service role if the right job comes up. I have progressed up the org in the last 10 years and know the move will result in a pay cut. Do positions ever become available at say heo level, or anything that would start around €50k? Or would it be a case of starting at ao/eo and working my way up again through internal positions? And second question, I'd probably like to consider reduced hours in the future with a young family. How do these types of positions come up in civil service?

Augme

lkbob wrote: »

Hi, I am currently working for a large mnc & for family reasons, am considering making a move to a civil service role if the right job comes up. I have progressed up the org in the last 10 years and know the move will result in a pay cut. Do positions ever become available at say heo level, or anything that would start around €50k? Or would it be a case of starting at ao/eo and working my way up again through internal positions? And second question, I'd probably like to consider reduced hours in the future with a young family. How do these types of positions come up in civil service?

Unless it is a specialised position won't be able to enter the civil service as a HEO, you need two years experience in the civil service to be eligible to apply. Another option is to come in at AP level which is above HEO.

Reduced hour positions don't come up in the civil service. You need to come in at a full time level and then you need to apply for reduced time. It's not also guaranteed to be successful and probably harder to get at AP level.

Sparks15

lkbob wrote: »

Hi, I am currently working for a large mnc & for family reasons, am considering making a move to a civil service role if the right job comes up. I have progressed up the org in the last 10 years and know the move will result in a pay cut. Do positions ever become available at say heo level, or anything that would start around €50k? Or would it be a case of starting at ao/eo and working my way up again through internal positions? And second question, I'd probably like to consider reduced hours in the future with a young family. How do these types of positions come up in civil service?

HEO is generally only open internally unless it is a specialist position as previous poster said. 

You’d have to start on first point of the salary scale for whichever grade you join at.

The majority of AO positions are Dublin based. The AO roles are usually advertised annually (around October time) on publicjobs.

EO and AP grades are also open to external candidates. I think competitions in recent times have been run every two years approx (most recent AP competition in 2018 and EO in 2019).

All positions are advertised on publicjobs - make sure to set up the relevant alerts so that you’re notified as soon as positions come up.

Payscales for the various grades available here for comparison: https://circulars.gov.ie/pdf/circular/per/2019/17.pdf

Like the previous poster, I think it’d probably be difficult to get reduced hours at senior management level. Also, flexitime arrangements are not available from AP grade upwards.

lkbob

Thanks for the info folks, that's really helpful.

Cakerbaker

Parental leave would be an option to reduce your working week although it wouldn’t be available straight away. If I remember the circular correctly you should be out of probation before applying although you can put a case forward after 3 months in the role.

hillbloom

I am also interested in joining the CIVIL SERVICE possibly as an EO. I am not in the Civil Service. Are all the EO positions in Dublin or are they nationwide. Would anyone have an idea when they will be next advertised. Sorry for all the questions.

Lynnington3

hillbloom wrote: »

I am also interested in joining the CIVIL SERVICE possibly as an EO. I am not in the Civil Service. Are all the EO positions in Dublin or are they nationwide. Would anyone have an idea when they will be next advertised. Sorry for all the questions.

It depends on the competition, they can be Dublin only or nationwide.
There may be an EO competition this year (generally summertime) or possibly not until next year.

uck51js9zml2yt

Lynnington3 wrote: »

It depends on the competition, they can be Dublin only or nationwide.
There may be an EO competition this year (generally summertime) or possibly not until next year.

Still need to fill the 2019 EO competition.

rsl1976

Cakerbaker wrote:

Parental leave would be an option to reduce your working week although it wouldn’t be available straight away. If I remember the circular correctly you should be out of probation before applying although you can put a case forward after 3 months in the role.

I joined in April, it's one year probation and you have to have that completed before you can apply for parental leave

Nerd Queen

At AP level just to clarify there is flexi time but not flexi leave. It’s up on the AHCPS - the senior management union website. It’s a great move for family reasons OP I wish you the best of luck. Though as previous posters have stated Dublin is your best bet

gmisk

Nerd Queen wrote: »

At AP level just to clarify there is flexi time but not flexi leave. It’s up on the AHCPS - the senior management union website. It’s a great move for family reasons OP I wish you the best of luck. Though as previous posters have stated Dublin is your best bet

I am an AP, no flexi leave but I don't have to clock in or out.
In CS for 15ish years, it offers me a good work life balance I came in as a CO. I would go for an open competition if it comes up and don't be disheartened if you don't get on the panel in the first go.

lkbob

gmisk wrote:

I am an AP, no flexi leave but I don't have to clock in or out. In CS for 15ish years, it offers me a good work life balance I came in as a CO. I would go for an open competition if it comes up and don't be disheartened if you don't get on the panel in the first go.

Thanks Gmisk. Do you mind me asking, is the culture to work long hours? I'm not afraid to work hard but where I am it wouldn't be uncommon to work 11 or 12 hour days at management level, feel like I'm missing too much time with my kids. & are APs working 4 days (parental leave) or taking up the reduced working year for summers off?

Green farmer

If you went in to the local authorities or hse or universities as a clerical officer, can you later apply for all the internal civil service jobs and move up the same way ?

rsl1976

My AP work 4 days a week and generally works 8 - 4 or 9 - 5. I think you have to be in a year before you can do the shorter working week.

I'm going to be taking one day parental leave in the next few weeks but had to wait till after my probation

PCX

Green farmer wrote: »

If you went in to the local authorities or hse or universities as a clerical officer, can you later apply for all the internal civil service jobs and move up the same way ?

No - HSE, Local authorities and University staff are considered public servants and not civil servants. Equally civil servants can't enter internal promotion competitions in those organisations.

There are generally 3 types of competition for Civil Service roles - internal, interdepartmental and open.

Internal is for promotion within a department and is only open to current staff in that department.

Interdepartmental is for promotion across the civil service and is only open to current civil servants (other public servants are not eligible).

Open is for everyone whether a current civil servant or not (this is the only type that public servants like those you listed would be eligible for).

Interdepartmental and open competitions (for non specialist roles) are generally run together as one single process. The exception is for the HEO grade where there are generally no open competitions.

gipi

rsl1976 wrote: »

My AP work 4 days a week and generally works 8 - 4 or 9 - 5. I think you have to be in a year before you can do the shorter working week.

I'm going to be taking one day parental leave in the next few weeks but had to wait till after my probation

Adjusted hours such as those above may not apply everywhere. In my former department office, the APs were required to work the standard hours - 9-1 and 2.15-5.45 (5.15 on Fridays).

Green farmer

PCX wrote: »

No - HSE, Local authorities and University staff are considered public servants and not civil servants. Equally civil servants can't enter internal promotion competitions in those organisations.


The exception is for the HEO grade where there are generally no open competitions.

For someone who's a EO, in a local authority, can they apply for a HEO in a university or HSE ? Ie in other public servant sectors. Sorry for the complicated questions. Just trying to get my head around where you could apply, if you wanted to move up the ladder over time.

PCX

Green farmer wrote: »

For someone who's a EO, in a local authority, can they apply for a HEO in a university or HSE ? Ie in other public servant sectors. Sorry for the complicated questions. Just trying to get my head around where you could apply, if you wanted to move up the ladder over time.

I doubt that they can apply for each other's internal competitions as they are distinct organisations. I'm open to correction on that though.

Samuel T. Cogley

Green farmer wrote: »

For someone who's a EO, in a local authority, can they apply for a HEO in a university or HSE ? Ie in other public servant sectors. Sorry for the complicated questions. Just trying to get my head around where you could apply, if you wanted to move up the ladder over time.

You can't apply for an internal competition but I thought internal competitions were limited to the civil service? Generally an organisation like a university will hold an open competition even if they have someone in mind for the job. Grades would be different in the University sector also.

gmisk

lkbob wrote: »

Thanks Gmisk. Do you mind me asking, is the culture to work long hours? I'm not afraid to work hard but where I am it wouldn't be uncommon to work 11 or 12 hour days at management level, feel like I'm missing too much time with my kids. & are APs working 4 days (parental leave) or taking up the reduced working year for summers off?

I will be honest I work pretty much the standard each day, so 9-5 ish, but it varies some days I go in early and leave early, project is still ramping up though so that might change in the future.
I haven't found a huge change pressure wise tbh from HEO to AP bar a lot more meetings (but thankfully less of these last few weeks).

I honestly have no clue about the rest of your queries sorry I can't be more help.

the-island-man

Hi,

I am trying to get a full picture of the benefits of working in the civil service.
I might be a bit dense but I've seen the Flexi-Time leave mentioned a number of times but don't fully understand it.So in terms of standard time off I see that this is generally in around the 30 days per year plus the bank holidays. I've seen it mentioned that using the Flexi time you could possibly accrue an extra day and a half off per month. How is this done? How many extra hours per week do you have to put in? Does the day and a half get added to your holiday time or does it have to be taken within the month?

Skippette

the-island-man wrote: »

Hi,

I am trying to get a full picture of the benefits of working in the civil service.
I might be a bit dense but I've seen the Flexi-Time leave mentioned a number of times but don't fully understand it.So in terms of standard time off I see that this is generally in around the 30 days per year plus the bank holidays. I've seen it mentioned that using the Flexi time you could possibly accrue an extra day and a half off per month. How is this done? How many extra hours per week do you have to put in? Does the day and a half get added to your holiday time or does it have to be taken within the month?

Hi, the amount of annual leave depends on what grade you are.
For example, a Clerical Officer (CO) will get 22 days, 23 after 5 years and 24 after 10 years. (think there may be more after 12/14 years). A HEO gets 29 days max.

Flexi leave, was when you could work up the hours 7.24 (day) and half day (3.42) within a four week period and then you take them within the next 4 week period. It was handy if you were trying to make a long weekend and save some of your holidays.

But since Covid and most people are WFH, Flexi has been suspended. So at the moment staff are generally working the traditional hours (even though core hours are suspended eg 10 -12 and 2-4) for business needs. But if for any reason you need to work odd hours, you can contact your line manager and there shouldn't be any issue. I know of staff, for different reasons, working afternoons and evening and even the odd weekend to make up hours.

the-island-man

I know people may not see that extra day and a half as normal vacation as you have to work the same amount of time you get off but effectively in normal times if you were at HEO level you could have 47 days plus bank holidays where you wouldn't be at work?

Samuel T. Cogley

Flexi was reduced to taking one day a month, although you can bank a day and a half. I want to say Haddington Road agreement but I might have the name wrong.

I am aware though that some areas were still allowing a day and a half.

the-island-man

So the max you can get at HEO level is 41 days holidays plus bank holidays but you only have to work the extra hours 8 out of 12 months? Bit of a bummer but still probably double what most private sector organisations would allow.

Any sense that they might permanently suspend Flexi-Time or would unions block such a move?

Samuel T. Cogley

Just to bear in mind you can't come in at HEO level as it's only available as an internal promotion. Closest to it is AO but that starts at a lower salary initially. AP's and above no longer have flexi if appointed after 2013.

HEO is 29 max IIRC might be 30 so 41 seems right. You can work up a day and a half so what you say about 8 out of 12 months could be correct.

Edit: Some areas don't have flexi as a rule - certain departments in AGS for example. Can't see them stopping flexi all together post COVID it would cause a riot.

Edit 2: There is also the shorter working year which allows a reduction in pay for a reduction in weeks worked.

HydroTendonMan

lkbob wrote: »

Thanks Gmisk. Do you mind me asking, is the culture to work long hours? I'm not afraid to work hard but where I am it wouldn't be uncommon to work 11 or 12 hour days at management level, feel like I'm missing too much time with my kids. & are APs working 4 days (parental leave) or taking up the reduced working year for summers off?

It varies depending on the job and Department but the working hours tend to be more sociable than comparable positions in the private sector. Of the 5 APs in my division they generally work 9-5/6. Obviously this could change during a busy period of the year, but generally speaking you will have relatively sociable working hours.

There are regular HEO positions open to outside candidates if you were willing to consider state bodies as well as the mainstream Civil Service. There are currently two being advertised on Public Jobs at The Arts Council.

redmgar

Flexi is still ongoing in some departments.

Term-time working and paying it back over the full year is great if you have family responsibilities.

The best in terms of perks I have ever come across would be a European financial institution very french lots of holiday, very good pension, top health insurance paid for by the company fully paid study fees, with study day off, bonus, etc.

I also know someone in a pharm company not in sales but the job is related to sales who was offered a Tesla as company care but they did not take it because of
the BIK.

At the moment because of covid, both sets get sent things like wine, cheese boards, hampers sent to their homes.

Meathlass

I'm an AP in a small Department and generally work 9-6.30pm. This time of the year is very busy though so I'm usually here until 7.30-8pm most nights. I came in as an AO in 2015 and got an internal promotion to AP in 2019.

I would say it could be difficult to come into the Civil Service at AP level as there's so much to get your head around in terms of PQs, FOIs, briefings for Ministers etc. I don't see many people at AP or PO level in my Department who have shorter working week arrangements.

Most of my other colleagues at AP level also work to 6pm ish. I'd say this varies considerably through the CS depending on the role.

Galwayhurl

I'm starting next month as an EO and was told that I will be working from home. For those working from home due to Covid, what are the working hours now that flexi is on hold? I know the hours are 7:24 but how long of a lunch does your manager tell you to take and what time do you start/finish?

Thanks.

redmgar

Galwayhurl wrote: »

I'm starting next month as an EO and was told that I will be working from home. For those working from home due to Covid, what are the working hours now that flexi is on hold? I know the hours are 7:24 but how long of a lunch does your manager tell you to take and what time do you start/finish?

Thanks.

Varies hugely within offices, seems to be local arrangements.

HydroTendonMan

Galwayhurl wrote: »

I'm starting next month as an EO and was told that I will be working from home. For those working from home due to Covid, what are the working hours now that flexi is on hold? I know the hours are 7:24 but how long of a lunch does your manager tell you to take and what time do you start/finish?

Thanks.

Completely depends. I am an EO and am pretty much left to my own devices as long as I get the work done each day.

I do an 8-4 or 9-5 most days.

Galwayhurl

redmgar wrote: »

Varies hugely within offices, seems to be local arrangements.

HydroTendonMan wrote: »

Completely depends. I am an EO and am pretty much left to my own devices as long as I get the work done each day.

I do an 8-4 or 9-5 most days.

Thanks to you both.

the-island-man

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Edit 2: There is also the shorter working year which allows a reduction in pay for a reduction in weeks worked.

Is there any upward limit on the shorter working year in terms of how many days you can reduce the year by?

Meathlass

Meathlass wrote: »

I'm an AP in a small Department and generally work 9-6.30pm. This time of the year is very busy though so I'm usually here until 7.30-8pm most nights. I came in as an AO in 2015 and got an internal promotion to AP in 2019.

I would say it could be difficult to come into the Civil Service at AP level as there's so much to get your head around in terms of PQs, FOIs, briefings for Ministers etc. I don't see many people at AP or PO level in my Department who have shorter working week arrangements.

Most of my other colleagues at AP level also work to 6pm ish. I'd say this varies considerably through the CS depending on the role.

Knew an ap who spent most of their day in the canteen and them complained aboit how much pressure they were under with work load.

the-island-man

the-island-man wrote: »

Is there any upward limit on the shorter working year in terms of how many days you can reduce the year by?

Normally limited go 8 weeks but there is also no prsi paid and you loose pension entitlements while off as you're not paying into it. Q

shawki

Galwayhurl wrote: »

I'm starting next month as an EO and was told that I will be working from home. For those working from home due to Covid, what are the working hours now that flexi is on hold? I know the hours are 7:24 but how long of a lunch does your manager tell you to take and what time do you start/finish?

Thanks.

We're are sticking to being around for core hours, 10:00-12:30 & 2:30-16:00. Anything after that is up to to the individual as long as it adds up to 37Hrs at the end of the week.

I usually work a little extra during the week so I only work 4.5 hours on Friday.

the-island-man

the-island-man wrote: »

Is there any upward limit on the shorter working year in terms of how many days you can reduce the year by?

You are allowed take *can apply for up to 3 continuous blocks of 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 or 13 weeks (to a maximum of 13 weeks) per year.

Normally apply in September for the following year. Once the weeks are set, you are tied in and they will not allow changes or cancellations.

SWYS weeks can be taken as unpaid, or you can opt to be paid pro-rata spread over the whole year. SWYS weeks do not count as service, or towards calculation for Annual Leave or pension (annual leave will be reduced, pro-rata).

If job sharing, you can't change work pattern if you opt for pro-rata pay for SWYS.

*amended as SWYS, like all things civil service, is granted subject to business needs first, and can be refused.

Galwayhurl

Galwayhurl wrote: »

I'm starting next month as an EO and was told that I will be working from home. For those working from home due to Covid, what are the working hours now that flexi is on hold? I know the hours are 7:24 but how long of a lunch does your manager tell you to take and what time do you start/finish?

Thanks.

Note the 7hrs 24 minutes does not include your lunchbreak.

Accruing extra hours for flexi leave is currently suspended for those WFH, so if you work up any extra hours at the moment you won't get credit for them.

But you can still work flexible hours, as in start and finish time, and lunch.

Managers in the civil service don't typically instruct you as to what time to start at or finish at or what time to take your lunch. Its flexible, once core hours are covered and your clock balances out at the end of the 4 week flexi period.

BonnieSituation

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Note the 7hrs 24 minutes does not include your lunchbreak.

Accruing extra hours for flexi leave is currently suspended for those WFH, so if you work up any extra hours at the moment you won't get credit for them.

But you can still work flexible hours, as in start and finish time, and lunch.

Managers in the civil service don't typically instruct you as to what time to start at or finish at or what time to take your lunch. Its flexible, once core hours are covered and your clock balances out at the end of the 4 week flexi period.

God be with the days it was 6:45. Sigh.

Must have been before my time.

The minimum working day before HRA was 6:57 excluding lunch.

SFC1895

Deleted User wrote: »

Must have been before my time.

The minimum working day before HRA was 6:57 excluding lunch.

6:45 was what it was in local authorities, as far as I remember, and 6:57 in the civil service/Govt Depts.

the-island-man

Deleted User wrote: »

SWYS weeks can be taken as unpaid, or you can opt to be paid pro-rata spread over the whole year. SWYS weeks do not count as service, or towards calculation for Annual Leave or pension (annual leave will be reduced, pro-rata). .

What does SWYS stand for?

SFC1895

the-island-man wrote: »

What does SWYS stand for?

Shorter Working Year Scheme