M20 x 250 bolts

Grueller

I am looking for 28 of these to bolt down a crush to slats. My local hardware wants €7.50 a bolt. Anywhere online that I can buy the likes of this for reasonable money?

CHOPS01

Grueller wrote: »

I am looking for 28 of these to bolt down a crush to slats. My local hardware wants €7.50 a bolt. Anywhere online that I can buy the likes of this for reasonable money?

Try Hassetts on the Dock Rd Limerick. Their sole business is bolts and fixings. Don't think you can order on their website but worth a call.

enricoh

Threaded bar any use?
At work we get stuff off nbt in Dublin, they post out if you give card over the phone.
Any time we run short n need stuff pronto, the gaffer is like a raving lunatic when he comes back after getting shafted at the local builders providers!

washman3

Could you use threaded bar.?
Comes in 1 metre lengths. Think about €5/6 per metre length and you would get 4 bolts for each length.

MrMusician18

Why are you using M20s?

Grueller

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Why are you using M20s?

Cos a crush bolted down will have serious pressure on the bolts when cattle are pressing against the side.

blue5000

Try Paddy Mitchell, prices are per 100, but there's usually a bit off paying on the day, https://www.mitchellsindustrial.ie/pages/fasteners/bolts-and-heavy-duty-fixings.php

Murang

blue5000 wrote: »

Try Paddy Mitchell, prices are per 100, but there's usually a bit off paying on the day, https://www.mitchellsindustrial.ie/pages/fasteners/bolts-and-heavy-duty-fixings.php

Fixline in mallow in cork

mycro2013

Gws in ballincollig are suppliers to the trade and also have a cash sales trade counter that delivers.

patsy_mccabe

Are you putting a plate in under the slats and then bolting to a second plate on top? How will you assemble it? Is the shed being built at the moment.

Anto_Meath

Try McMahons builders providers. If they arent available on line with them you could ring them on Monday https://www.mcmahons.ie

Grueller

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Are you putting a plate in under the slats and then bolting to a second plate on top? How will you assemble it? Is the shed being built at the moment.

Ya that's it Patsy. Shed is only being built so I can get underneath by getting down in the tank.

foxy farmer

Theres different strength grades for bolts. Just wondering were you quoted for a high tensile bolt. Possibly a 10.9 or 12.9 as opposed to a standard 8.8 mild steel bolt. Grade is stamped on bolt head. GWS in Ballincollig would be a good bet. Dealt with them and seemed reasonable on price.

MickeyShtyles

The Bolt Company, Ballycoolin.
Theboltcompany.ie

Tis only over the road from us so we use it often enough.

MrMusician18

Grueller wrote: »

Cos a crush bolted down will have serious pressure on the bolts when cattle are pressing against the side.

If you have a think about it, and try and quantify the amount of force on the sides of the crush you will be able to come up with something much more efficient than just throwing material at the problem. Adjusting the size of the base plate can seriously change the pressure on the fixings for example.

But it's your money...

Grueller

MrMusician18 wrote: »

If you have a think about it, and try and quantify the amount of force on the sides of the crush you will be able to come up with something much more efficient than just throwing material at the problem. Adjusting the size of the base plate can seriously change the pressure on the fixings for example.

But it's your money...

I am not an engineer so will find it hard to quantify the force, but here are some factors.
1. The base plates are 300mm square so that the clamps will grip 3 gangs of the slat
2. I have left the uprights 2100mm long to allow me to install stays back across to a mass concrete wall above the working level of the crush
3. These bolts will be in an environment where they will be in cattle slurry for a lot of their working life.
4. I will be standing working in the fall zone of the uprights should they fail. They will not just fail, they will come down with the force of the livestock behind it. My bull weighed 1160kgs last summer.
5. I hope to be working at this crush for 30 years. An extra few euros is small beans over that period, but I know my local hardware is robbing me and it is that which rankles with me.
6. The base plates are recycled and were bored for m20. 2 of the 4 holes in them lined up for me so I bored 2 more of the same in each plate to use them.
Not a smart question, but are you an engineer? If so what would you have specced?

Cavanjack

Grueller wrote: »

I am not an engineer so will find it hard to quantify the force, but here are some factors.
1. The base plates are 300mm square so that the clamps will grip 3 gangs of the slat
2. I have left the uprights 2100mm long to allow me to install stays back across to a mass concrete wall above the working level of the crush
3. These bolts will be in an environment where they will be in cattle slurry for a lot of their working life.
4. I will be standing working in the fall zone of the uprights should they fail. They will not just fail, they will come down with the force of the livestock behind it. My bull weighed 1160kgs last summer.
5. I hope to be working at this crush for 30 years. An extra few euros is small beans over that period, but I know my local hardware is robbing me and it is that which rankles with me.
6. The base plates are recycled and were bored for m20. 2 of the 4 holes in them lined up for me so I bored 2 more of the same in each plate to use them.
Not a smart question, but are you an engineer? If so what would you have specced?

You are right to go the extra bit. Done a lot of this sort of work in a previous life. I’d use threaded bar if I were you and I’d weld it to the plate underneath, with a lock but on top. if it loosened underneath for whatever reason you’d have to go into the tank again.
Just out of curiosity are you building the new shed and crush under tams? Just wondering is this allowed under the specs. Building a shed myself and planning on dividing the pens in a 25’ shed the same way.

Grueller

Cavanjack wrote: »

You are right to go the extra bit. Done a lot of this sort of work in a previous life. I’d use threaded bar if I were you and I’d weld it to the plate underneath, with a lock but on top. if it loosened underneath for whatever reason you’d have to go into the tank again.
Just out of curiosity are you building the new shed and crush under tams? Just wondering is this allowed under the specs. Building a shed myself and planning on dividing the pens in a 25’ shed the same way.

New tank in an existing shed. Unfortunately this one is from my own pocket CJ. It is part of a walkway/collecting yard for cows as I am leaving the sucklers and starting to milk in the spring.

orm0nd

Grueller wrote: »

I am not an engineer so will find it hard to quantify the force, but here are some factors.
1. The base plates are 300mm square so that the clamps will grip 3 gangs of the slat
2. I have left the uprights 2100mm long to allow me to install stays back across to a mass concrete wall above the working level of the crush
3. These bolts will be in an environment where they will be in cattle slurry for a lot of their working life.
4. I will be standing working in the fall zone of the uprights should they fail. They will not just fail, they will come down with the force of the livestock behind it. My bull weighed 1160kgs last summer.
5. I hope to be working at this crush for 30 years. An extra few euros is small beans over that period, but I know my local hardware is robbing me and it is that which rankles with me.
6. The base plates are recycled and were bored for m20. 2 of the 4 holes in them lined up for me so I bored 2 more of the same in each plate to use them.
Not a smart question, but are you an engineer? If so what would you have specced?

Just a comment on point 3.

Hassetts have bolts which are treated against corrosion / rusting.

Alucan

I would second the bold company. The will post them out to you. M20 is way over sized M14 would be loads.

Bass Reeves

If you use threaded bar make sure it is well galvanized. You would want to go for the higher tensile 10.9 or 12.9 bolt I think you can get threaded bar like that as well. However when you go to 10.9 or 12.9 they are not galvanized AFAIK. Not sure even at that I use such a set up. The tank is obiviously going under the area for the crush. Would you consider actually formulating a crush like a portable crush that is the lenght you require. Are you putting a step at the side of the crush.


Wurth Ireland are worth I see that they have them

https://eshop.wurth.ie/Hexagonal-bolt-with-shank-SCR-HEX-ISO4014-109-WS30-M20X250/005220%20250.sku/en/GB/EUR/?VisibleSearchTerm=M20X250&CampaignName=SR001

Another option would be to contact a shed company they may be able to source them for you,

However if it was me I go for the formulated crush with a steel floor on top of slats

mycro2013

Bass Reeves wrote: »

If you use threaded bar make sure it is well galvanized. You would want to go for the higher tensile 10.9 or 12.9 bolt I think you can get threaded bar like that as well. However when you go to 10.9 or 12.9 they are not galvanized AFAIK. Not sure even at that I use such a set up. The tank is obiviously going under the area for the crush. Would you consider actually formulating a crush like a portable crush that is the lenght you require. Are you putting a step at the side of the crush.


Wurth Ireland are worth I see that they have them

https://eshop.wurth.ie/Hexagonal-bolt-with-shank-SCR-HEX-ISO4014-109-WS30-M20X250/005220%20250.sku/en/GB/EUR/?VisibleSearchTerm=M20X250&CampaignName=SR001

Another option would be to contact a shed company they may be able to source them for you,

However if it was me I go for the formulated crush with a steel floor on top of slats

The cost difference between m20 and m14 is minimal in the scheme of things. Go with the m20s. Threaded bar is a pain as it adds work. Each bolt must be cut to length, the thread cleaned and a nut welded in place to form a bolt head.

Try and go for a 12mm or greater baseplate to make an allowance for corrosion. Also the load is spread from post to post by the connection tubes when the crush is fully assembled. Which will limit the movement and increase the rigidity of the crush.

Cavanjack

Bass Reeves wrote: »

If you use threaded bar make sure it is well galvanized. You would want to go for the higher tensile 10.9 or 12.9 bolt I think you can get threaded bar like that as well. However when you go to 10.9 or 12.9 they are not galvanized AFAIK. Not sure even at that I use such a set up. The tank is obiviously going under the area for the crush. Would you consider actually formulating a crush like a portable crush that is the lenght you require. Are you putting a step at the side of the crush.


Wurth Ireland are worth I see that they have them

https://eshop.wurth.ie/Hexagonal-bolt-with-shank-SCR-HEX-ISO4014-109-WS30-M20X250/005220%20250.sku/en/GB/EUR/?VisibleSearchTerm=M20X250&CampaignName=SR001

Another option would be to contact a shed company they may be able to source them for you,

However if it was me I go for the formulated crush with a steel floor on top of slats

Galvanised rod will still rust in dung. Only job would be stainless rod but where will this job stop !!!

mycro2013

I think some lads are over complicating the job. There is systems like this in use all over the country. Weld the head of the bolts to the base plates which are going under the slats.

This will allow one person to tighten the bolts should they come loose. And allow a degree of adjustment from the top by one person. Limiting the time a person will be needed in the tank for.

Who2

If you know anyone in the esb they have heavy galvanized bolts that should work. Mightn’t cost a whole pile.

Bass Reeves

mycro2013 wrote: »

I think some lads are over complicating the job. There is systems like this in use all over the country. Weld the head of the bolts to the base plates which are going under the slats.

This will allow one person to tighten the bolts should they come loose. And allow a degree of adjustment from the top by one person. Limiting the time a person will be needed in the tank for.

I know of no lad with a crush set up like this. Yes farmers have internal barriers and gate's but it not the end of the world if one gets loose. Slurry and dung rust everything. It the safety aspects to. The only time something will go wrong is when crush is full of cattle. Then it's a real safety issue. Nobody should be going into s tank after it is in use.that why I suggested a portable crush type setup.

patsy_mccabe

Grueller, would it be possible to make up a rectangular frame, from say channel, and bolt one long side of it to either the shed uprights or the wall itself. Wall would want to be reinforced poured. That way all forces would be transmitted to the shed wall. You would have a channel going across the floor and cattle would have to shep over it, but you would avoid having to fix it to the slats. Go heavy on the channel (150x75x18 heavy wall) and weld it up well and get it galvanised. It would be a job for life. No going into the tank then.


Here are the loads for Metric Coarse bolts;
https://genfast.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Proof-Load-Yield-Tensile-Strength-Metric.pdf

Go with the Proof Loads and divide by 2. That generally covers cyclic loads over time. Normally how a bolt fails.
So an M20 coarse bolt (Class 8.8) would be 146KN (from attached link) or 14.8 Tonne. Divide by 2 is 7.4 Tonne.

Grueller

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I know of no lad with a crush set up like this. Yes farmers have internal barriers and gate's but it not the end of the world if one gets loose. Slurry and dung rust everything. It the safety aspects to. The only time something will go wrong is when crush is full of cattle. Then it's a real safety issue. Nobody should be going into s tank after it is in use.that why I suggested a portable crush type setup.

Several dairy guys around here with crushes like this over flow channels.
When the tops
I am reluctant to weld the heads of the bolts because it would destruct the galvanising on the bolts.

Bass Reeves

Grueller wrote: »

Several dairy guys around here with crushes like this over flow channels.
When the tops
I am reluctant to weld the heads of the bolts because it would destruct the galvanising on the bolts.

Big difference between dairy cows and the pressures they exert and the pressure exerted by bullocks or Suckler cows and there offspring. Dairy cows do not charge around

Grueller

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Big difference between dairy cows and the pressures they exert and the pressure exerted by bullocks or Suckler cows and there offspring. Dairy cows do not charge around

To be fair neither do most of my sucklers, but they are going now anyhow. I think it should be ok with the top braces in place.

zfml

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Wurth Ireland are worth I see that they have them

https://eshop.wurth.ie/Hexagonal-bolt-with-shank-SCR-HEX-ISO4014-109-WS30-M20X250/005220%20250.sku/en/GB/EUR/?VisibleSearchTerm=M20X250&CampaignName=SR001

FYI: €98 ex vat from Wurth for a pack of 10!

RobinBanks

Grueller wrote: »

Ya that's it Patsy. Shed is only being built so I can get underneath by getting down in the tank.

Sounds like a good idea. Any chance of a few pics of setup?

Grueller

RobinBanks wrote: »

Sounds like a good idea. Any chance of a few pics of setup?

Just as soon as I have it up and operational I will post pics. Don't hold your breath though, I am flat out trying to get the parlour finished so I go at this when I have an hour here and there.

TooOldBoots

Slats are not designed for such conditions. There's a good chance the slat itself will fail as. the plates bolted to the slat will cause torq loading on them.
concrete slats are good under static loading only

Grueller

TooOldBoots wrote: »

Slats are not designed for such conditions. There's a good chance the slat itself will fail as. the plates bolted to the slat will cause torq loading on them.
concrete slats are good under static loading only

I understand that too. I am gambling on this working but like I said, with the top of the posts braced back to a reinforced concrete wall I think it will work. I have seen more pens than little done this way in cattle sheds with a post bolted to slats, particularly in wide tanks.

Figerty

CHOPS01 wrote: »

Try Hassetts on the Dock Rd Limerick. Their sole business is bolts and fixings. Don't think you can order on their website but worth a call.

Hassetts are good, but never cheap.