Worth considering cheap Leaf?

Bawnmore

I'm trying to figure out if it's worth us looking at older (11/12) Leafs with our type of usage. Is there a typical calculation that makes it easy to work out? Our usage would be the following:

- 3 days p/w: 2 school runs 32km round trip each.
- 3 days p/w: wife drives to work and back - school drop off and collection directly en route. 88km round trip
- Other: not a whole lot, trips to shops close by etc on other days.

Currently doing above in a 06 1.6 petrol Opel Zafira averaging about 35mpg worth nothing really (freshly NCT'd so maybe 500 quid tops). We have another ICE car for longer journeys.

I see Leafs for 5/6k appearing regularly. Is there any point at looking at these? Primary goal would be cost saving.

ELM327

Bawnmore wrote: »

I'm trying to figure out if it's worth us looking at older (11/12) Leafs with our type of usage. Is there a typical calculation that makes it easy to work out? Our usage would be the following:

- 3 days p/w: 2 school runs 32km round trip each.
- 3 days p/w: wife drives to work and back - school drop off and collection directly en route. 88km round trip
- Other: not a whole lot, trips to shops close by etc on other days.

Currently doing above in a 06 1.6 petrol Opel Zafira averaging about 35mpg worth nothing really (freshly NCT'd so maybe 500 quid tops). We have another ICE car for longer journeys.

I see Leafs for 5/6k appearing regularly. Is there any point at looking at these? Primary goal would be cost saving.

You'd find that difficult or impossible in a 5-6k leaf.

Soarer

You'll never do that round trip without charging in work.

If your missus can get that organised, and ye get a chargepoint installed, ye'll save an absolute fortune.

krissovo

My rule of thumb to plan for any journey in EV is to add 50% to the indicated range of the car. For example in my case my commute is 100km's, I ensure I have 150kms of range before I set off. This covers 99% of catch all cases for me, winter range loss, rain, dropping a colleague at the airport, diverting to the shops or even a heavy right foot with racing away at lights.

Never rely on charging at work, my workplace has chargers but they have become very popular and we have gone from 5 EV's to over 20 in 4 months with only 5 charge spaces. I only charge about 50% at work now.

Soarer

krissovo wrote: »

My rule of thumb to plan for any journey in EV is to add 50% to the indicated range of the car. For example in my case my commute is 100km's, I ensure I have 150kms of range before I set off. This covers 99% of catch all cases for me, winter range loss, rain, dropping a colleague at the airport, diverting to the shops or even a heavy right foot with racing away at lights.

Never rely on charging at work, my workplace has chargers but they have become very popular and we have gone from 5 EV's to over 20 in 4 months with only 5 charge spaces. I only charge about 50% at work now.

150km range?!

I only see ~90km these days.

That's what LeafSpy is vital for me. Was running with the heating on the other day, "low battery charge" warning came up, checked LeafSpy, 40% capacity remaining!

unkel

Bawnmore wrote: »

I see Leafs for 5/6k appearing regularly. Is there any point at looking at these? Primary goal would be cost saving.

While the older 2011/2012 5/6k Leafs are unsuitable, the newer battery 2014 Leaf will work for your usage pattern. Expect to pay a minimum of €9k for one though. So you have to up your budget. That said, once bought, the car will cost almost nothing to run and will keep its value well.

Bawnmore

I must say, what a bunch of helpful responses in next to no time at all - thanks everyone!

While the older 2011/2012 5/6k Leafs are unsuitable, the newer battery 2014 Leaf will work for your usage pattern. Expect to pay a minimum of €9k for one though. So you have to up your budget. That said, once bought, the car will cost almost nothing to run and will keep its value well.

I'll check this out - thank you!

Is there any value to be had in the UK at this budget? I've a relative who travels back and forth weekly and has been bringing back a few classic cars. They'd have absolutely no problem bringing one back over for me. Would mean no travel costs as they're over there anyway and can expense boat back.

unkel

Bawnmore wrote: »

Is there any value to be had in the UK at this budget?

You can keep a close eye on the ads in the UK, but for a budget end (sub €10k) Leaf, there is barely better value in the UK than there is here and the very high Sterling at the moment doesn't help either.

KCross

Bawnmore wrote: »

- 3 days p/w: wife drives to work and back - school drop off and collection directly en route. 88km round trip

As others said, the oldest Leaf's are not suitable for that element of your driving.

Maybe the newer one, but can you tell us is that 88km on motorway or L/N roads?

And a basic requirement is that you have a driveway with the ability to charge the car at home. I presume you can do that?

Bawnmore wrote: »

Primary goal would be cost saving.

What is your budget? There is more than the Leaf out there if you are willing to spend more. The fuel savings as a rough rule of thumb will be about a fifth of what you pay today in diesel.

TheBoyConor

Would it be possible to upgrade the aging battery in a 2011/2012 leaf to the newer type higher capacity battery found in the newer leafs?

At a range so low a leaf battery like that could be considered end of life, would it?
How are cars like that still even worth €5/6k when their usefulness is reduced to such low ranges. I would have though they would be worthless and for upgrading/battery renewable at that range or scrapage if that was uneconomic or impossible.

ELM327

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Would it be possible to upgrade the aging battery in a 2011/2012 leaf to the newer type higher capacity battery found in the newer leafs?

At a range so low a leaf battery like that could be considered end of life, would it?
How are cars like that still even worth €5/6k when their usefulness is reduced to such low ranges. I would have though they would be worthless and for upgrading/battery renewable at that range or scrapage if that was uneconomic or impossible.

The batteries will always have inherent value as storage so EVs will never be as cheap as old fossil cars.

Lantus

The 90km trip would really need the 30kwh leaf which was 2016 onwards and starts at 15k I'd say. If your budget is 6k your already spending 9k more than you want.

Based on say 30eu a week diesel your spending 1500 a year on fuel so 6 year pay back before you start to save money not counting the cost of credit, installing a charger etc.

Keep car as long as possible and start saving a bit each week for next one.

unkel

Lantus wrote: »

The 90km trip would really need the 30kwh leaf

Ah, come on. It's 88km and probably none of it or very little of it motorway (can OP describe the route?). If the owner would take it handy on a very bad, wet, cold and windy day in winter, a later Leaf 24kWh would be fine.

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

Ah, come on. It's 88km and probably none of it or very little of it motorway (can OP describe the route?). If the owner would take it handy on a very bad, wet, cold and windy day in winter, a later Leaf 24kWh would be fine.

From a former owner of such a later L24, you'd need the 30 in winter if you like to use luxuries like heating and going over 80 km/h indicated

Gumbo

Lantus wrote: »

The 90km trip would really need the 30kwh leaf which was 2016 onwards and starts at 15k I'd say. If your budget is 6k your already spending 9k more than you want.

Based on say 30eu a week diesel your spending 1500 a year on fuel so 6 year pay back before you start to save money not counting the cost of credit, installing a charger etc.

Keep car as long as possible and start saving a bit each week for next one.

My 24 kWh Leaf done 100km in the depths of winter with AC, heating, seats on at 100kmph on the motorway.

No way is a 30 kWh required for an 88km trip in my opinion, especially if its on national roads at a lower speed.

slave1

Lantus wrote: »

The 90km trip would really need the 30kwh leaf which was 2016 onwards and starts at 15k I'd say. If your budget is 6k your already spending 9k more than you want.

Based on say 30eu a week diesel your spending 1500 a year on fuel so 6 year pay back before you start to save money not counting the cost of credit, installing a charger etc.

Keep car as long as possible and start saving a bit each week for next one.

unkel wrote: »

Ah, come on. It's 88km and probably none of it or very little of it motorway (can OP describe the route?). If the owner would take it handy on a very bad, wet, cold and windy day in winter, a later Leaf 24kWh would be fine.

If you want whatever car you purchase to do a 88km round trip in the depths of Winter for a few years at least then you need to forget about a Leaf24.
You may manage it this/next year but you'll have constant range anxiety in the worst of the weather.

UK all but lost now that STG has strengthened so much.

unkel

Would I buy a €40k Kona if I had a 150km commute and it would be a little bit tight 5 days of winter if I drove at the speed limit with the A/C on in my €20k Ioniq? Would I ****?

Bawnmore

I didn't mean to start a range war :pac:

For our usage, the 88km would be 100% N roads with the last few km in city traffic. It's very possible the 88km trip will disappear in about May year and the car will be used mostly for the shorter school run after that. With that in mind, maybe we'd be better off holding off until then and looking around at EV's then.

tubos

I'm flogging a 152 24kw leaf. I'm charging in blanchardstown right now and at 70 percent charge it's showing 101km range. I'm gonna head for kinnegad easy go and top up and then head for Athlone.

Tomorrow I'll be going from Athlone to blueball
which is 88km round trip on N and R roads. I'll let you know how I get on!

Bawnmore wrote: »

I didn't mean to start a range war :pac:

For our usage, the 88km would be 100% N roads with the last few km in city traffic. It's very possible the 88km trip will disappear in about May year and the car will be used mostly for the shorter school run after that. With that in mind, maybe we'd be better off holding off until then and looking around at EV's then.

Idbatterim

If the longer run dissapears , that would make no financial sense to go ev then. Would a hybrid not be better potentially if you do change ?

tubos

I'm flogging a 152 24kw leaf. I'm charging in blanchardstown right now and at 70 percent charge it's showing 101km range. I'm gonna head for kinnegad easy go and top up and then head for Athlone.

Tomorrow I'll be going from Athlone to blueball
which is 88km round trip on N and R roads. I'll let you know how I get on!

Bawnmore wrote: »

I didn't mean to start a range war :pac:

For our usage, the 88km would be 100% N roads with the last few km in city traffic. It's very possible the 88km trip will disappear in about May year and the car will be used mostly for the shorter school run after that. With that in mind, maybe we'd be better off holding off until then and looking around at EV's then.

Dardania

kceire wrote: »

My 24 kWh Leaf done 100km in the depths of winter with AC, heating, seats on at 100kmph on the motorway.

No way is a 30 kWh required for an 88km trip in my opinion, especially if its on national roads at a lower speed.

Only thing to bear in mind is, a 4 or 5 year old car won't have the same SOH as it had back when it was newer... that'll reduce range nowadays

Gumbo

Dardania wrote: »

Only thing to bear in mind is, a 4 or 5 year old car won't have the same SOH as it had back when it was newer... that'll reduce range nowadays

My car was a 2014 and I don’t those trips in January this year.
It had 11 bars and 77k Km.

mobfromcork

I've a 2015 24kw Leaf and on a bit of N road and mainly L roads I did a 90km trip every day this week with about 20-30km range left when I got home. That's at 65-80kph most of the way and about 10km at 95kph. I was later leaving one morning and had to drive a bit faster so only had 12 km left when I got home - also the coldest morning. It would definitely have been faster in a car with longer range/ICE car but our ICE car is heavy on petrol - about 8-10 litres per 100km so fuel savings for taking the Leaf and leaving a small bit earlier are significant.
It's further than we usually commute as was at a course for the week. Heating and AC on when needed but not all the time.
Battery is still at 12 Bars - 41k km.

tubos

My trip today in the 152 24kw Leaf was 95.0km. Started out on 92% and finished on 17%. It included N and R roads and 16km on the motorway. It was cold but I didn't put the heat on at all, just wore a warm jacket!

Zenith74

Lantus wrote: »

The 90km trip would really need the 30kwh leaf which was 2016 onwards and starts at 15k I'd say.

Did 100km mostly on the M50 today (varying between 90/100kmh) in a 2014 Leaf (85% SOH). Very cold day, three of us in the car, heaters on to 21 degrees.

Arrived home with only a couple of percent left, but just saying 88km in a 2014 will not be a problem unless it’s snowing or you drive at 120km/h the whole time. If it’s not motorway then it would be a doddle.

Mike9832

unkel wrote: »

Ah, come on. It's 88km and probably none of it or very little of it motorway (can OP describe the route?). If the owner would take it handy on a very bad, wet, cold and windy day in winter, a later Leaf 24kWh would be fine.

Until you lose an inevitable bar

You'll need hot water bottle then

Lantus

There's some good info that indicates the 90km is tight to OK and a few saying no. At least the op has a good starting point to start asking questions and educating themselves on these sorts of issues that an ev owner requires awareness and consideration of.

Zenith74

Lantus wrote: »

There's some good info that indicates the 90km is tight to OK and a few saying no. At least the op has a good starting point to start asking questions and educating themselves on these sorts of issues that an ev owner requires awareness and consideration of.

OP should note that the people saying it will be OK actually own Leafs, some of those saying it won’t have never owned an EV at all LOL.

The Leafs are far from perfect, but for the right use case they’re an awesome run around, you get a lot of bang for your buck spec wise. One of the best kept secrets on the secondhand car market.

ELM327

tubos wrote: »

My trip today in the 152 24kw Leaf was 95.0km. Started out on 92% and finished on 17%. It included N and R roads and 16km on the motorway. It was cold but I didn't put the heat on at all, just wore a warm jacket!

This type of nonsense is not palatable for most sane people though

ELM327

Zenith74 wrote: »

OP should note that the people saying it will be OK actually own Leafs, some of those saying it won’t have never owned an EV at all LOL.

The Leafs are far from perfect, but for the right use case they’re an awesome run around, you get a lot of bang for your buck spec wise. One of the best kept secrets on the secondhand car market.

Again, as an owner of a leaf24 for nearly 100k , I do not reccomened the L24 for this purpose

...Ghost...

Owner of 2012 Leaf here. The car can do about 90-100km in this fine weather we are having. Keeping speed at 60-70 on N/R roads.

I sold a 05 Zafira and bought the 2012 Leaf a couple years back and it has 10 out of 12 bars. I would not do the OPs longer journey in it unless there was a charge point at work (or local to work) with a back-up between work and home. Watching the battery percentage the whole time would ruin the joy of the car.

OP, go buy a Leaf anyway. If will cover the longer trip in the warmer weather with ease and you still have it for the other journeys. Dump the Zaffi and if possible, buy a 2014+ Leaf.

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

This type of nonsense is not palatable for most sane people though

He used 75% of the battery for a 95km trip on one of the coldest days of the year. He would have easily made the 88km national roads and city trip we are talking about here in his boxers with the heat on 24C...

ELM327

...Ghost... wrote: »

Owner of 2012 Leaf here. The car can do about 90-100km in this fine weather we are having. Keeping speed at 60-70 on N/R roads.

I sold a 05 Zafira and bought the 2012 Leaf a couple years back and it has 10 out of 12 bars. I would not do the OPs longer journey in it unless there was a charge point at work (or local to work) with a back-up between work and home. Watching the battery percentage the whole time would ruin the joy of the car.

OP, go buy a Leaf anyway. If will cover the longer trip in the warmer weather with ease and you still have it for the other journeys. Dump the Zaffi and if possible, buy a 2014+ Leaf.

This nonsense is not realistic for most people.

...Ghost...

ELM327 wrote: »

This nonsense is not realistic for most people.

It's now nonsense and unrealistic to drive at a reasonable speed for the road being driven? What's so wrong with doing 60 in a 60 zone, or 70 in an 80 zone? We don't all have to double the speed limit to get to where we are going.

The OP asked a question and I am in a position to answer it based on the information provided, especially because I moved from a Zafira to a 2012 Leaf and I also drive a 2014 Leaf. You disagreeing with my post does not make it nonsense.

sgalvin

Would second this.
If you are driving 450km/week + other local trip brings to 500km/week and you gave access to charge via night rate, is a non choice really.

Your car is still loosing €500/year(you will replace it)
Fuel saving €2,500/year
Tax saving €500/year
Servicing saving about €200/year
Clutch/tbelt/watt pump/bearing/other failure is/will cost €500/year
Insurance seems lower by €200/year
Maybe you’ll save €500/year tolls

About €4,800/year or €400/month.
Will buy you the very best 17/18 leaf with decent warranty left.

You’ll also find you’ll push more kms from your other car into it too.
We have an 18 leaf 30 and it costs us less per month than out previous 2019 Mazda 6 all in. In 6 months we have put >20k km.

They seem to hold their value too, so newer can be better value as warranty is longer.

...Ghost... wrote: »

Owner of 2012 Leaf here. The car can do about 90-100km in this fine weather we are having. Keeping speed at 60-70 on N/R roads.

I sold a 05 Zafira and bought the 2012 Leaf a couple years back and it has 10 out of 12 bars. I would not do the OPs longer journey in it unless there was a charge point at work (or local to work) with a back-up between work and home. Watching the battery percentage the whole time would ruin the joy of the car.

OP, go buy a Leaf anyway. If will cover the longer trip in the warmer weather with ease and you still have it for the other journeys. Dump the Zaffi and if possible, buy a 2014+ Leaf.

AhHaor

I've 2015 leaf and if I stay below 100km/hr, 1km = 1% worst case scenario. Even in winter with the heater on 19C I'm getting better (less) than 1%/km.

My November efficiency was 16.5kWh/100 km. And this was heater on and driving at 120km/h first half and 100km/h second half (reverse way home). With 2 bars gone it'll have SOH of less 78.5%.(rough calculation of 20.9kWh*.785 gives 16.38kWh remaining). My SOH is 95% now. I'm not sure if the numbers scale linearly. But if the SOH dropoff is, then 88km should be not a problem. If you add in a bit of quick driving and a detour then you could be pushing it.

ELM327

...Ghost... wrote: »

It's now nonsense and unrealistic to drive at a reasonable speed for the road being driven? What's so wrong with doing 60 in a 60 zone, or 70 in an 80 zone? We don't all have to double the speed limit to get to where we are going.

The OP asked a question and I am in a position to answer it based on the information provided, especially because I moved from a Zafira to a 2012 Leaf and I also drive a 2014 Leaf. You disagreeing with my post does not make it nonsense.

It's nonsense because, while you may be able to drive with a hat and scarf in your leaf with the lights off to save energy, without a care for other motorists around you...Doing 60-70 in a 80-100 zone is inherently dangerous as the delta between your speed and the traffic around you risks causing an accident.


Others would not be willing to make those compromises, and it's not realistic to tell someone they can get equal range to you - but the caveat of how stringently you have to manage consumprtion to get it.

AhHaor wrote: »

I've 2015 leaf and if I stay below 100km/hr, 1km = 1% worst case scenario. Even in winter with the heater on 19C I'm getting better (less) than 1%/km.

My November efficiency was 16.5kWh/100 km. And this was heater on and driving at 120km/h first half and 100km/h second half (reverse way home). With 2 bars gone it'll have SOH of less 78.5%.(rough calculation of 20.9kWh*.785 gives 16.38kWh remaining). My SOH is 95% now. I'm not sure if the numbers scale linearly. But if the SOH dropoff is, then 88km should be not a problem. If you add in a bit of quick driving and a detour then you could be pushing it.

I used 1%=1km and subtracted 5km from that as my baseline in winter.
He could scrape 88km now, but in 6-12 months not be able.

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

I used 1%=1km and subtracted 5km from that as my baseline in winter.
He could scrape 88km now, but in 6-12 months not be able.

Car won't lose 10% range in 6-12 months, it will take a few years

And that was your safe minimum, with yourself making zero compromises on a really bad day. I agree with you that driving under the speed limit is generally unsafe, but you'll agree with me that if you do make some not-unsafe compromises on a very bad day, a 2014 Leaf will easy do 88km national roads / town for years to come

Orebro

Owner of L24 for three years here.

Would I do a one off 88Km round trip without charging at this time of year? I'd do it if I had to but would be nervous - I'd probably hop into the ICE to take the stress out of it.

Would I do a 88Km round trip in it every day - hell no! One small diversion, road closure or anything like that and you're in even more trouble straight away.

Wouldn't be fair to put the OP into this situation where every 88Km round trip is squeaky bum time with charge - that would be an awful way to be as a regular occurrence.

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

Car won't lose 10% range in 6-12 months, it will take a few years

And that was your safe minimum, with yourself making zero compromises on a really bad day. I agree with you that driving under the speed limit is generally unsafe, but you'll agree with me that if you do make some not-unsafe compromises on a very bad day, a 2014 Leaf will easy do 88km national roads / town for years to come

I think Orebro sums up my position exactly

Orebro wrote: »

Owner of L24 for three years here.

Would I do a one off 88Km round trip without charging at this time of year? I'd do it if I had to but would be nervous - I'd probably hop into the ICE to take the stress out of it.

Would I do a 88Km round trip in it every day - hell no! One small diversion, road closure or anything like that and you're in even more trouble straight away.

Wouldn't be fair to put the OP into this situation where every 88Km round trip is squeaky bum time with charge - that would be an awful way to be as a regular occurrence.

KCross

Orebro wrote: »

Would I do a 88Km round trip in it every day - hell no! One small diversion, road closure or anything like that and you're in even more trouble straight away.

+1

Its clear from the thread that people have different opinions on it which suggests that 88km is do-able but a bit close for comfort as a long term regular thing.

Since the OP is saying this is a regular journey I think the L30 would be a better choice to remove all stress.

That unfortunately means spending alot more money, so its possibly not a runner then.

OP, do the math on the savings and whether spending closer to €14k for an L30 is a runner for you or not. You may just have to wait for the L30 to come down to your price point.

unkel

I don't disagree with any of that. But for me if it was either buying a Leaf and taking it handy on a bad day (and save loads of money in TCO), or having to drive an expensive to run ICE for another few years while saving up very slowly for an EV with more range, for me that would be a no brainer.

...Ghost...

ELM327 wrote: »

It's nonsense because, while you may be able to drive with a hat and scarf in your leaf with the lights off to save energy, without a care for other motorists around you...Doing 60-70 in a 80-100 zone is inherently dangerous as the delta between your speed and the traffic around you risks causing an accident.


Others would not be willing to make those compromises, and it's not realistic to tell someone they can get equal range to you - but the caveat of how stringently you have to manage consumprtion to get it.

Hold the pony there lad. There is a Delta between what I said and what others have said, so please don't make a solution from a mixture.

First of all, I never mentioned anything about heat, or lights. Really man, you are bringing lights into it to force your point?

Secondly, you are conflating the numbers. I suggested on, or near the speed limit. Doing 60 in a 100 zone is different that doing 70 in an 80 zone, I think we should both agree. And if I am driving at a reasonable speed and there is a big delta between me and the driver behind, then it is his/her fault for driving dangerously in the event of a collision, not mine.

Finally, I clearly said that I would not recommend doing the 88km in a 2012 Leaf in the depths of winter without a work charger and a charger between work and home as a backup. I said what my 2012 Leaf can do and at what speed. That does not suggest another 2012 will achieve the same, as it depends on many factors...battery health, battery temperature, roads driven, speeds driven, gradient and so on and so on.

ELM327

...Ghost... wrote: »

Hold the pony there lad. There is a Delta between what I said and what others have said, so please don't make a solution from a mixture.

First of all, I never mentioned anything about heat, or lights. Really man, you are bringing lights into it to force your point?

Secondly, you are conflating the numbers. I suggested on, or near the speed limit. Doing 60 in a 100 zone is different that doing 70 in an 80 zone, I think we should both agree. And if I am driving at a reasonable speed and there is a big delta between me and the driver behind, then it is his/her fault for driving dangerously in the event of a collision, not mine.

Finally, I clearly said that I would not recommend doing the 88km in a 2012 Leaf in the depths of winter without a work charger and a charger between work and home as a backup. I said what my 2012 Leaf can do and at what speed. That does not suggest another 2012 will achieve the same, as it depends on many factors...battery health, battery temperature, roads driven, speeds driven, gradient and so on and so on.

70 in a leaf in an 80 is actually 64.


If you're driving at 64 in an 80 it should be your fault.


The lights comment was clearly a joke **whoosh**

Gumbo

ELM327 wrote: »

70 in a leaf in an 80 is actually 64.


If you're driving at 64 in an 80 it should be your fault.

You really think every other motorist out there is calculating in their head as they drive dash speed V GPS speed?

In the real life that doesn't happen.

ELM327

kceire wrote: »

You really think every other motorist out there is calculating in their head as they drive dash speed V GPS speed?

In the real life that doesn't happen.

The point is that if he thinks he's doing "70" it's actually 64 in reality. Or in any other car that doesnt overread.

...Ghost...

ELM327 wrote: »

70 in a leaf in an 80 is actually 64.


If you're driving at 64 in an 80 it should be your fault.


The lights comment was clearly a joke **whoosh**

OK. I disagree with you that a person driving a real speed of 64km/h in an 80km/h zone should be held responsible in the event that someone crashes into them from behind. But it might just be that you are giving us another illuminating joke, because to me, that assertion is as ludicrous as Trumps hair-do.

By the way, congrats on the Tesla. Lovely machine. I saw the thread yesterday.

Apologies to the OP for my part in taking the thread off topic. I stand strong on my original post.