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General infrastructure spending priorities thread (split from Metro thread)

  • 11-12-2019 1:54pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 10,556 ✭✭✭✭ Thelonious Monk


    cgcsb wrote: »
    A bit of a clumsy comparison. The person you mentioned would walk it faster than driving and cycle it more than 3 times quicker.

    A person living in Tallaght and working in Blanch cannot walk or cycle and there's not much of a bus sevice.

    By the way that person who drives to Christchurch from lesson st needs a slap

    Tallaght and Blanch can be less than a 30 min cycle to city centre. Put in proper bike lanes and loads of people would adopt bike commute.


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 15,803 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer


    Tallaght and Blanch can be less than a 30 min cycle to city centre. Put in proper bike lanes and loads of people would adopt bike commute.

    The other poster didn’t mention the city.

    They were talking about travelling from Tallaght to Blanchardstown.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,556 ✭✭✭✭ Thelonious Monk


    LXFlyer wrote: »
    The other poster didn’t mention the city.

    They were talking about travelling from Tallaght to Blanchardstown.

    Doh. Yes that would be the guts of an hour I'd say.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,347 ✭✭✭✭ MJohnston


    I suppose if we had real ambition, we could fairly easily build a great cycle path parallel to the M50.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,194 ✭✭✭ cgcsb


    Tallaght and Blanch can be less than a 30 min cycle to city centre. Put in proper bike lanes and loads of people would adopt bike commute.

    Great yeah. But it's not currently possible to cycle it. Big part of the problem is there's no alternative to the westlink bridge at the minute even for walking/cycling/buses. You have to cross at Lucan or Chapelisod. Government won't want it, it would give people alternatives to paying the toll.


  • Registered Users Posts: 700 ✭✭✭ machaseh


    MJohnston wrote: »
    I suppose if we had real ambition, we could fairly easily build a great cycle path parallel to the M50.

    Don't even get me started about the abysmal cycling infrastructure in this city compared to where I'm from (the Netherlands). It's a joke. Much much much much more than that would need to be done.

    I believe they had a fairly good starting plan a while ago, but of course that was binned too.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,194 ✭✭✭ cgcsb


    machaseh wrote: »
    Don't even get me started about the abysmal cycling infrastructure in this city compared to where I'm from (the Netherlands). It's a joke. Much much much much more than that would need to be done.

    I believe they had a fairly good starting plan a while ago, but of course that was binned too.

    Welcome to the anglosphere. The media and popular thinking will simply revert to: "Why don't the bikes pay road tax" or the classic "wha about the homeless"

    Lots of Irish people do have a reasonable understanding of other European languages, more so than all other english speaking counries, but its still a hard sell to get people out of their me fein suburbanite thinking.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,631 ✭✭✭ Elmer Blooker


    It's not irrelevant as we don't have a magic money tree.
    It seems we do have a magic money tree. The cost of the Newlands X 'upgrade' and the M50 'upgrade' - about 2€billion maybe? I've no idea how much the Red Cow 'upgrade' cost but probably about a billion like the other 'upgrades'.
    Total: about 3b give or take a few hundred million. That's an awful lot of money to make the traffic situation even worse around the capital but remember folks the money just isn't there for an efficient public transport system in Dublin.


  • Registered Users Posts: 920 Last Stop


    It seems we do have a magic money tree. The cost of the Newlands X 'upgrade' and the M50 'upgrade' - about 2€billion maybe? I've no idea how much the Red Cow 'upgrade' cost but probably about a billion like the other 'upgrades'.
    Total: about 3b give or take a few hundred million. That's an awful lot of money to make the traffic situation even worse around the capital but remember folks the money just isn't there for an efficient public transport system in Dublin.

    You jump from €1bn to €2bn to €3bn with absolutely no sources.
    FYI Newlands cross AND M11 together cost €282m and given roads typically cost 10m per km, that means Newlands Cross cost 1/10 of a billion!
    http://www.engineersjournal.ie/2015/07/17/m11-rathnew-arklow-motorway-16km-project-opens-seven-weeks-ahead-schedule/

    So add them together and you get €1.1bn not the €3bn you suggest. These projects did not make traffic in Dublin worse either, if anything they improved it. Imagine what the red cow or the toll bridge would be like now if they weren’t upgraded. Yes we need to invest in public transport but it’s not a this or that situation. We are looking at spending €8bn on public transport in Dublin in the 8 years, that’s the equivalent of upgrading the M50 every year!


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,631 ✭✭✭ Elmer Blooker


    Last Stop wrote: »
    You jump from €1bn to €2bn to €3bn with absolutely no sources.
    FYI Newlands cross AND M11 together cost €282m and given roads typically cost 10m per km, that means Newlands Cross cost 1/10 of a billion!
    http://www.engineersjournal.ie/2015/07/17/m11-rathnew-arklow-motorway-16km-project-opens-seven-weeks-ahead-schedule/

    So add them together and you get €1.1bn not the €3bn you suggest. These projects did not make traffic in Dublin worse either, if anything they improved it. Imagine what the red cow or the toll bridge would be like now if they weren’t upgraded. Yes we need to invest in public transport but it’s not a this or that situation. We are looking at spending €8bn on public transport in Dublin in the 8 years, that’s the equivalent of upgrading the M50 every year!
    The M50 so called 'upgrade' cost 1B alone so if you are correct then the Red Cow and Newlands X 'upgrades' cost a mere 100m!
    I didn't just pull these figures out of my head. Did these projects improve the traffic situation in Dublin?
    http://paschaldonohoe.ie/2010/09/m50-upgrade-welcome-but-comes-at-massive-cost-to-the-taxpayer/


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,539 ✭✭✭✭ Grandeeod


    Last Stop wrote: »
    You jump from €1bn to €2bn to €3bn with absolutely no sources.
    FYI Newlands cross AND M11 together cost €282m and given roads typically cost 10m per km, that means Newlands Cross cost 1/10 of a billion!
    http://www.engineersjournal.ie/2015/07/17/m11-rathnew-arklow-motorway-16km-project-opens-seven-weeks-ahead-schedule/

    So add them together and you get €1.1bn not the €3bn you suggest. These projects did not make traffic in Dublin worse either, if anything they improved it. Imagine what the red cow or the toll bridge would be like now if they weren’t upgraded. Yes we need to invest in public transport but it’s not a this or that situation. We are looking at spending €8bn on public transport in Dublin in the 8 years, that’s the equivalent of upgrading the M50 every year!

    Okay clever clogs. How much did the M50 upgrade and Newlands Cross cost us?? It's still jam packed and slow.

    Your "not this or that" approach is quickly running out of road. Your quote of 8 billion on PT over 8 years won't happen as it has never happened and never will. Perhaps you should post stuff based on it happening instead of Government BS that has been spun out for years.

    Back on topic, Metrolink has already been downsized from the massively overblown crap that took it to Sandyford, despite lots of us knowing why it would never happen. The other part won't happen either. None of it will happen. Mark my words and post. Irish politicians don't do underground rail and barely do decent overground rail.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 920 Last Stop


    The M50 so called 'upgrade' cost 1B alone so if you are correct then the Red Cow and Newlands X 'upgrades' cost a mere 100m!
    I didn't just pull these figures out of my head. Did these projects improve the traffic situation in Dublin?
    http://paschaldonohoe.ie/2010/09/m50-upgrade-welcome-but-comes-at-massive-cost-to-the-taxpayer/

    Yes it did cost 100m which is 1/10 of a billion as I said in my post.
    I've no idea how much the Red Cow 'upgrade' cost but probably about a billion like the other 'upgrades'.

    You certainly seemed to pull the €1bn for Newlands cross out of your head.

    They did improve the traffic situation in Dublin! The m50 upgrade is almost 10 years old now and is now handling 40k more than when the barriers were removed in 2008. As bad as things are now, I don’t think anyone could comprehend what the M50 would be like without the upgrade.


  • Registered Users Posts: 920 Last Stop


    Grandeeod wrote: »
    Okay clever clogs. How much did the M50 upgrade and Newlands Cross cost us?? It's still jam packed and slow.
    As I have already stated twice now €1.1bn.
    You suggestion that it is STILL jam packed and slow completely ignores the growth rates that have occurred in the meantime. The old M50 simply could not handle the traffic currently on it.
    Your "not this or that" approach is quickly running out of road. Your quote of 8 billion on PT over 8 years won't happen as it has never happened and never will.Perhaps you should post stuff based on it happening instead of Government BS that has been spun out for years.

    Metrolink, Dart expansion and Busconnects are due for completion by 2027. Total cost €8bn. They are all currently being progressed through the design process with planning on at least 2 due in 2020.
    Back on topic, Metrolink has already been downsized from the massively overblown crap that took it to Sandyford, despite lots of us knowing why it would never happen. The other part won't happen either. None of it will happen. Mark my words and post. Irish politicians don't do underground rail and barely do decent overground rail.

    This doesn’t even warrant a reply to be perfectly honest. Metrolink has not been downsized, it has be divided into phases as is common with almost every large scale project the world over. I don’t agree with that decision but it significantly increases the changes of it going ahead.

    As for “Irish politicians don’t do underground rail” I think the less said the better


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,539 ✭✭✭✭ Grandeeod


    Last Stop wrote: »
    As I have already stated twice now €1.1bn.
    You suggestion that it is STILL jam packed and slow completely ignores the growth rates that have occurred in the meantime. The old M50 simply could not handle the traffic currently on it.



    Metrolink, Dart expansion and Busconnects are due for completion by 2027. Total cost €8bn. They are all currently being progressed through the design process with planning on at least 2 due in 2020.



    This doesn’t even warrant a reply to be perfectly honest. Metrolink has not been downsized, it has be divided into phases as is common with almost every large scale project the world over. I don’t agree with that decision but it significantly increases the changes of it going ahead.

    As for “Irish politicians don’t do underground rail” I think the less said the better

    You're new to all this. Hang around here a while so I can see you educated in how it all works.


  • Registered Users Posts: 920 Last Stop


    Grandeeod wrote: »
    You're new to all this. Hang around here a while so I can see you educated in how it all works.

    There’s life outside the cave you know


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,517 ✭✭✭✭ Idbatterim


    It seems we do have a magic money tree. The cost of the Newlands X 'upgrade' and the M50 'upgrade' - about 2€billion maybe? I've no idea how much the Red Cow 'upgrade' cost but probably about a billion like the other 'upgrades'.
    Total: about 3b give or take a few hundred million. That's an awful lot of money to make the traffic situation even worse around the capital but remember folks the money just isn't there for an efficient public transport system in Dublin.

    Those projects had to be done. It’s the deserted rural motorways that are the farce in terms of importance. More important than funding dm and du! Truly pathetic. One would take masses of cars off the road and support more housing developments, the other?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,194 ✭✭✭ cgcsb


    Of the few people who I've seen on the Athenry to Tuam motorway, hardly any of them seem to be able to drive. The behaviour is shocking, they drive into your backseat before trying to overtake then start breaking when they're on front of you. Or they just drive in the fast lane at 6kmh or in thw hardshoulder and of course, my personal favourite, the wrong way down the hardshoulder.

    If even 10% of the money was spent locking up folks who can't drive but try to any way that would be a better investment.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,539 ✭✭✭✭ Grandeeod


    Last Stop wrote: »
    There’s life outside the cave you know

    Some great treasures can be found in a cave.:D

    Anyway, you take all plans/spending at face value and on a will happen basis. Cannot take you seriously at all.


  • Registered Users Posts: 918 ✭✭✭ riddlinrussell


    MJohnston wrote: »
    I suppose if we had real ambition, we could fairly easily build a great cycle path parallel to the M50.

    There's sections of one in the proposed GDA cycle plan, see "Western parkway Greenway" and "Tolka Valley Greenway", big empty section in the middle though and it would definitely require a public transport bridge over the Liffey somewhere above the Strawberry Beds.


  • Registered Users Posts: 920 Last Stop


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    Those projects had to be done. It’s the deserted rural motorways that are the farce in terms of importance. More important than funding dm and du! Truly pathetic. One would take masses of cars off the road and support more housing developments, the other?

    What deserted rural motorways are you referring to?

    The M17 has an AADT of 11,000 which is the limit for a single carriageway road. The road is only open 2 years. Looking at the growth rates, it’ll definitely exceed that in 2020 meaning the old road would have been unusable. Anyone who travelled though Tuam or Claregalway on a Friday afternoon would tell you that.

    Of all the inter-urbans built during the boom, the M9 was the most questionable and yet is now carrying 20,000 vehicles - more than stretch of the M7 or M8.

    The 3 new road schemes recently in the news all have very high AADTs on the existing roads of over 10,000

    While it is extremely frustrating that Metro and Dart U haven’t been built, there is life outside of Dublin you know and these schemes need to be built, it just so happens that they are cheaper and easier to get through the various processes that a metro or rail line.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,517 ✭✭✭✭ Idbatterim


    They may be needed now. They are still expensive schemes. That are luxuries compared to Dublin based projects , that would be more sustainable and could carry that number of people per hour , never mind per day.

    These schemes for Dublin massively increase competitiveness, how much can be built etc. there is no comparison between them and connecting or bypassing villages. Seriously putting the art before the horse


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,342 ✭✭✭ hans aus dtschl


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    They may be needed now. They are still expensive schemes. That are luxuries compared to Dublin based projects , that would be more sustainable and could carry that number of people per hour , never mind per day.

    These schemes for Dublin massively increase competitiveness, how much can be built etc. there is no comparison between them and connecting or bypassing villages. Seriously putting the art before the horse

    Bear in mind though, that by focusing on infrastructure expenditure on Dublin, you get a situation where just one part of the country has good infrastructure, with a serious dearth of transport infrastructure elsewhere. Some people might say "where were you when they were building all the motorways to and from Dublin". This is what the UK have done with London, and it has some negative consequences, eventually culminating in Brexit.

    Adding to this point, infrastructure in Dublin will be more expensive than elsewhere in the country.

    Instead, I tentatively say that prioritising Galway/Limerick/Cork for large-scale sustainable transport expenditure would give better bang-for-buck and would still help to alleviate the pressure on Dublin. And sustainable transport expenditure would probably still cost less than some of these roads.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,853 Mod ✭✭✭✭ magicbastarder


    Last Stop wrote: »
    Of all the inter-urbans built during the boom, the M9 was the most questionable and yet is now carrying 20,000 vehicles - more than stretch of the M7 or M8.
    there is a argument - i would say superficial for now anyway, because i don't have any details on this particular scheme - that because building roads induces traffic, it's a trivial thing to look at a motorway a couple of years after it was built and say 'look, it's carrying more traffic than the old road so it was a good idea'.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,995 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    Bear in mind though, that by focusing on infrastructure expenditure on Dublin, you get a situation where just one part of the country has good infrastructure, with a serious dearth of transport infrastructure elsewhere. Some people might say "where were you when they were building all the motorways to and from Dublin". This is what the UK have done with London, and it has some negative consequences, eventually culminating in Brexit.

    The problem with this argument is that Dublin has been massively underinvested in over the last 20 years. Rural Ireland has seen a massive investment in motorways at the expense of any major infrastructure projects in Dublin.

    Dublin is certainly no London in terms of even per capita capital investment.

    A city the size of Dublin really should have about 4 metro lines and dozens of tram/Luas lines.

    Dublin's issues is not that it is too big, but that it hasn't been developed adequately. It needs vastly higher density housing and mass transit to support it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,194 ✭✭✭ cgcsb


    On the topic of spending priorities:
    A new bridge and road connecting j2 on the N4 to the carpenterstown road, bus, bikes and pedestrians only is badly needed.


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