Heating a workshop.

recipio

Any thoughts on heating a proposed workshop ? Its going to be a new build and as well insulated as I can make it.
I don't like infra red and have ruled out gas flames due to condensation problems.I would actually consider underfloor heating powered by a boiler but I'm trying to avoid fossil fuels.
That kinda leaves electric heating of some sort and I'm thinking of storage heaters. Can anyone offer advice - they seems to have fallen out of favour.?

magicbastarder

would you have enough offcuts to justify a stove?

recipio

magicbastarder wrote: »

would you have enough offcuts to justify a stove?

Thanks. They are handy for offcuts but really don't provide the kind of low level constant heat that I think a workshop needs.
At the moment my plywood starts to grow fungus, paper turns into blotting paper and the tools rust.:eek: Of course good insulation might get over these problems so I don't want to sink a lot of money into unnecessary technology only to find its overkill.
I probably would get more answers over in ' construction' but somebody on here might have direct experience of storage heaters.?;)

iamtony

I've seen a set up with a portable electric "generator" which is actually a giant power bank that is charged from solar panels. Hook that up to an energy efficient heater and it could work well. Of course this all depends on how much heat you need daily. That's an off the grid option if the cost of electricity is the big issue as usually is with these things.
A stove is another option I've considered.

gman2k

iamtony wrote:

I've seen a set up with a portable electric "generator" which is actually a giant power bank that is charged from solar panels. Hook that up to an energy efficient heater and it could work well. Of course this all depends on how much heat you need daily. That's an off the grid option if the cost of electricity is the big issue as usually is with these things. A stove is another option I've considered.

Nothing solar powered and electric will provide enough heat.
Chinese diesel heaters are commonly used to heat spaces like these.
You'll find plenty of info on YouTube.
Cheap, efficient and can be run from a 12v battery.

Electric storage heaters have gone out of fashion because they're expensive and sheite. Broke my bloody heart living in apartments fitted with them. If you 'boost' the output, they dump everything and then it gets cold. And dog help you if you've a draughty roller doors and so on.

If I was building now myself and it could be done, I'd insulate the hell out of it and put an airlock type pedestrian doorway in, with a masonry storage heater and be done with it. Assuming it's not a massive space. Properly designed and built, they work incredibly well in terms of their energy efficiency while the fire is burning and then holding the heat over an extended period of time. Really a great solution and even a small, fuel efficient fire for an hour can output decent heat for several hours afterwards.

http://donkey32.proboards.com/thread/703/vortex-stove

If you're stuck with electricity I'd be looking at options for a heat pump and underfloor, if you insulate properly so it can actually retain the heat within the workshop.

In both cases, draughts and insulation gaps will just kill it for you.

What dimensions for the workshop? Is it block, timber or clad construction? Insulated floor? What sort of roof and how high is it etc? Detail on the doors/openings also help. And how about location. City/urban, rural etc. Can you technically consider something burning fuel with a flue, or are your options limited in that regard? I half expect that's the case these days anyway. But paint us a picture so we know where the challenges lay ahead of you.

ercork

An air to air heat pump would be a very good solution if you're prepared to pay 1500 or thereabouts. Great temperature control and very economical to run. There are quite a few posts on here about them.

iamtony

gman2k wrote: »

Nothing solar powered and electric will provide enough heat.
Chinese diesel heaters are commonly used to heat spaces like these.
You'll find plenty of info on YouTube.
Cheap, efficient and can be run from a 12v battery.

I'm no expert on the matter so maybe you know better that me but I've seen systems on YouTube like this one: https://ecosolaris.com/en/produit/chinook-hot-air-solar-panel-1-5-m-1125w/
I suppose it all depends on when you need to heat it etc. I'm assuming this one works during daylight and it's not all solar, the solar only powers the fan and stuff but off grid none the less.
Also if your only in the workshop once if twice s week for an hour then a solar panel charging batteries or a electric generator could run an energy efficient heater for a few hours per week and be switched to main when it's ran out of power.
Again it really depends on how often and it purpose. Not that I've any first hand experience so if you have please educate me. I'm just going by options I came across on YouTube which researching for my needs.

Tacitus Kilgore

gman2k wrote: »

Nothing solar powered and electric will provide enough heat.
Chinese diesel heaters are commonly used to heat spaces like these.
You'll find plenty of info on YouTube.
Cheap, efficient and can be run from a 12v battery.

Those heaters are brilliant imo, efficient enough on diesel too, a 5kw version will use about 8L at full pelt per 24hours, seeing as you plan on insulating well, a 2kw version might even be plenty for you depending on the size of the space.

Could skip the battery also and power it from one of these: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01MRSAT39/?coliid=I1TTO6V3EO5ZY8&colid=2UCBIRRMG2T0G&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

recipio

Thanks all.
there are a lot of options since I last built anything so more research needed.The air source technology looks promising but pricey.
I do know that I don't want a single point hot air blower or anything that takes hours to crank up. I have a wood stove and if you go up a ladder you realise all the heat is in the top two feet of the air volume so underfloor heat is a more logical option.
I'll keep researching but will probably rule out storage heaters due to their lack of control.

magicbastarder

recipio wrote: »

I have a wood stove and if you go up a ladder you realise all the heat is in the top two feet of the air volume

i guess a ceiling fan might not be a great option in a workshop.

recipio

magicbastarder wrote: »

i guess a ceiling fan might not be a great option in a workshop.

Ha Ha - not a bad idea at all if it wasn't for all the dust.:D

bonzodog2

magicbastarder wrote: »

i guess a ceiling fan might not be a great option in a workshop.

But a fan on one end of say a bit of 100mm sewer pipe could bring down the hot air again. In my livingroom, which I heat with a paraffin stove, there's a difference between floor level, table height and ceiling of about 2 deg C,e.g. 18/20/22

gman2k

iamtony wrote:

I'm no expert on the matter so maybe you know better that me but I've seen systems on YouTube like this one:

Solar and space heating does not work in Ireland in the winter. When you need heat the most is when you have the least solar gain.
Diesel or paraffin heaters or a stove will be the most economical, with the stove being more costly to install due to the flue.

Calahonda52

The UFH with a HP would be a good proposal assuming you will keep it at some low temp all winter.
16 degrees should be enough so dew point wont be reached and the COP will be pretty good.
.
http://www.dpcalc.org/
.
To max the use of night rate, maybe get a buffer tank as well

I would not heat the whole floor, use a good dollop of perimeter insulation and heat the centre.
.
In passing what's the issue with infra red

magicbastarder

i had to run a heat gun over some of my tools earlier - whatever weird combination of weather it's been in the last 24 hours (bitingly cold overnight, followed by the weather getting mild and damp), a lot of the tools had developed a layer of condensation. it's the first time i can remember seeing it do that to that extent in the last few years.

recipio

magicbastarder wrote: »

i had to run a heat gun over some of my tools earlier - whatever weird combination of weather it's been in the last 24 hours (bitingly cold overnight, followed by the weather getting mild and damp), a lot of the tools had developed a layer of condensation. it's the first time i can remember seeing it do that to that extent in the last few years.

We simply don't insulate our workshops well enough. In my present shed I insisted the builder put a sheet of polystyrene between two metal decking sheets on the roof. When he grumbled I reminded him that he had quoted for proper insulated metal sheets but he said they were' too dear' ! The polystyrene sheet worked well enough - I don't get any water drips.
I'm still looking at the costs between a block build unit or a commercial shed.With the block build I might be able to squeeze in two floors but I want the building to keep a low profile. Anybody here built either of these type of structures ?

CelticRambler

Last year, I put an electric heat mat under newly laid tiles (over chipboard on insulation) in an open plan 25m² space with all kinds of other zones coming off it, including the stairs. It has become my default workshop because of that - really comfortable to work in, and not too expensive to run, great for drying clothes, shoes, painted/varnished woodwork, potatoes. The mat covers 18m² of the total space (some areas deliberately left "cold") and uses about 5kW total on a warm-ish day, 10kW on a cold day.

magicbastarder

CelticRambler wrote: »

uses about 5kW total on a warm-ish day, 10kW on a cold day.

5kW or 5kWh?

dingdong1234567

Waste engine oil burner?

https://www.google.com/search?q=waste+engine+oil+burner+for+garage&client=ms-android-xiaomi-rev2&prmd=sivn&sxsrf=ACYBGNTOypex0fsipLap__m2uwKQ_BDf4w:1576922069525&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiIkqu-vMbmAhUhmVwKHRHoAw0Q_AUoAnoECA4QAg&biw=360&bih=560

listermint

recipio wrote: »

Thanks all.
there are a lot of options since I last built anything so more research needed.The air source technology looks promising but pricey.
I do know that I don't want a single point hot air blower or anything that takes hours to crank up. I have a wood stove and if you go up a ladder you realise all the heat is in the top two feet of the air volume so underfloor heat is a more logical option.
I'll keep researching but will probably rule out storage heaters due to their lack of control.

Diesel heaters don't take hours to crank up.

Underfloor takes hours to crank up.

I think you need alot more research. Unless you plan on running the underfloor or air to water most of the day then it's pointless. I needs to maintain certain temp and the floor had to be built to retain that heat.

Padre_Pio

I had an idea a while back to buy 10 of these 250W ceramic heaters and place them at floor level around the workshop.
https://www.ceramicx.com/products/ceramic-elements/hollow-elements/full-flat-element-hollow/

CelticRambler

magicbastarder wrote: »

5kW or 5kWh?

A total of 5kW (to 10kW) in 24h. That 10kW this month was when the outside temp range was -2°C/+6°C at the beginning of the month.

listermint wrote: »

Underfloor takes hours to crank up.

I think you need alot more research. Unless you plan on running the underfloor or air to water most of the day then it's pointless. I needs to maintain certain temp and the floor had to be built to retain that heat.

Heat-up time depends on the depth of the floor. Mine heats up in about 30min, and the effect can be felt at head high within an hour. That might count as "ages" for some rooms/uses, but I would imagine anyone heating a workshop will be hanging around in there for more than one hour a day! :pac:

Edit: before I (retro)fitted the underfloor, I spent about a year experimenting with a 2kW freestanding heater in various positions around the room to see how well it would heat the space, especially with the various draughts and unsealed spaces. Only when I was happy that it was "satisfactory" (but would probably never really be no more than that) did I go ahead. The difference, though, between 2kW across the whole floor and 2kW from a single point was amazing.

Frogeye

if you go with a heat pump and UFH, don't forget your insulation in the floor /perimeter and the air tightness. If you don't seal the building up then the the draught will just take all your heat and the heat pump will cost a lot to run. then you have to consider ventilation if your sealed up...

recipio

Frogeye wrote: »

if you go with a heat pump and UFH, don't forget your insulation in the floor /perimeter and the air tightness. If you don't seal the building up then the the draught will just take all your heat and the heat pump will cost a lot to run. then you have to consider ventilation if your sealed up...

Thanks,
I am looking at the Steeltech type sheds with insulation in the walls and roof. Not sure how well sealed they are. Also the Mitsubishi split system looks promising. It delivers heat in the winter and air conditioning the summer - but more research needed.;)