Working on Christmas Day

RandomGirl78

Hi,

I am working for a big company in the customer support. This department is split into people working onsite in the office and the ones working from home.

At the end of November we had a meeting scheduled and nobody knew why. But very fast we figured out that only people who work from home were attendees.

During that meeting our supervisor told us that they tried to close the business for Christmas Day but unfortunately they failed. Due to this, they required all of the home based advisors to work on that day, while the offices itself will be closed. Only those who have their regular rest days over Christmas will have off.

After some protests our supervisor offered to give us the 24th off, as big exception. Some of my colleagues - mostly those who have families - asked to get the 25th off, but those requests were denied and it was even nearly impossible to swap shifts with those who have their rest days over Christmas.

Some time later, our managers sent an email around, praising themselves that they managed to close the business over Christmas and thanked all who agreed in volunteering to work.

Now beside of the question if it is really necessary to open a customer service over Christmas, is it really legal how they did it? They were obviously not finding enough volunteers and therefore simply declared, that we home based advisors will volunteer to work. In our rosters, they blocked us from taking off that day with the wording "holiday volunteer", though most of us even protested against working that day.

Is it okay, to make us volunteers while our onsite colleagues are forced to take off? I know, some of them would like to work while a lot of us at home would like to have off.

Personally I think that it is not okay at all but what is the legal side of it? I know that even on Christmas, businesses are allowed to open in Ireland, but is it legal how they did it? I mean, they simply declared us to volunteers, while closing the rest of the business, denied all exception request, even for those of us who are really religious. On top of that, they increased the workload for us on that day (opening more lines). For me it feels at least slightly discriminatory as the employer forces home based employees to work "voluntary" and refuses any exception, even for religious reason.

What do you think?

dodzy

Ah, the aul religion card. :rolleyes:

KaneToad

Christmas day is a public holiday. You are entitled to compensation for having to work it - ie another day off. You may be able to negotiate additional pay. If your contract stipulates the working of public holidays, then working on Dec 25th is no different.

Employer is under no obligation to grant you the AL days you request.

They don't seem to have handled it very well but I don't think they've done anything illegal.

KaneToad

dodzy wrote: »

Ah, the aul religion card. :rolleyes:

If asked, I'm sure they would allow you take your lunch break earlier/later to allow you attend a religious service.

micosoft

1. Is it legal? Probably. You'd need to check your contract tbh which lists how you get rostered and consequences refusing a rostered day. Lot's of people work Christmas day.
2. Should they call it volunteering? Probably not.
3. Do you have a choice? At this point probably not. You can decide if this if for you after Christmas but the business are unlikely to change their plans at this late stage.

questionmark?

Wonder will many people be feeling sick or suffer from Internet connection issues on Christmas day

kennethsmyth

questionmark? wrote: »

Wonder will many people be feeling sick or suffer from Internet connection issues on Christmas day

Yep this is where all the home workers should go - would be fun if all did it!

_Brian

Your employer decides when you work.

You can apply for annual leave but they do not have to grant it.

If it’s a regular scheduled day you would work then that’s it settled.

Saying your religious is just silly talk, embarrassing really.

jippo nolan

_Brian wrote: »

Your employer decides when you work.

You can apply for annual leave but they do not have to grant it.

If it’s a regular scheduled day you would work then that’s it settled.

Saying your religious is just silly talk, embarrassing really.

Is that you, Boss?

Jim2007

_Brian wrote: »

Saying your religious is just silly talk, embarrassing really.

You are embarrassing yourself. You need to respect people right to practice their religion, what ever it may be.

Ironicname

Jim2007 wrote:

You are embarrassing yourself. You need to respect people right to practice their religion, what ever it may be.

You are joking?

_Brian

Jim2007 wrote: »

You are embarrassing yourself. You need to respect people right to practice their religion, what ever it may be.

The right to practice religion does not supersede your work responsibilities, expecting an employer to make allowances is stupid.

Brian?

Jim2007 wrote: »

You are embarrassing yourself. You need to respect people right to practice their religion, what ever it may be.

Why does anyone need to respect religious belief?

_Brian

jippo nolan wrote: »

Is that you, Boss?

You don’t have to like it.

Your work set your schedule, your hours, and can approve or deny annual leave requests. They decide when you work.

You don’t like that leave and move somewhere else, where they too will decide when you work.

It’s life, get used to it.

senordingdong

Your doctor will give you any day off you need

senordingdong

senordingdong wrote: »

Your doctor will give you any day off you need

Eh, no he/she won’t. Try getting an appointment for a cert on Christmas Day.

Odelay

senordingdong wrote: »

Your doctor will give you any day off you need

The magical doctors cert isn’t as magical as you seem to think.

Rattle

_Brian wrote: »

You don’t have to like it.

Your work set your schedule, your hours, and can approve or deny annual leave requests. They decide when you work.

You don’t like that leave and move somewhere else, where they too will decide when you work.

It’s life, get used to it.

From www.citizensinformation.ie "Your employer must take into account your family responsibilities, opportunities for rest and recreation that are available to you and to consult with you (or your union) at least one month before the leave is to be taken." I think the case could be made here that they are not considering family responsibilities.

@RandomGirl78 I expect if you let them label you as a holiday volunteer you have little come-back now. If you are just venting here rather than protesting too strongly at work I can understand, and its probably a sensible decision.

_Brian

Rattle wrote: »

From www.citizensinformation.ie "Your employer must take into account your family responsibilities, opportunities for rest and recreation that are available to you and to consult with you (or your union) at least one month before the leave is to be taken." I think the case could be made here that they are not considering family responsibilities.

@RandomGirl78 I expect if you let them label you as a holiday volunteer you have little come-back now. If you are just venting here rather than protesting too strongly at work I can understand, and its probably a sensible decision.

People have to work Christmas Day, it’s a fact, it wouldn’t work if everyone could say “family” and expect to get the day off. I’ve worked plenty myself, amd I’ve made up schedules that have had people working Christmas Day when they would rather not.

S.G.M.

Brian? wrote:

Why does anyone need to respect religious belief?

As long as what they are talking about isn't detrimental to others then why wouldn't you respect something that is important to someone.
It would be like someone saying 'Why do I have to respect your cat? I can say it looks hideous if I want to'.
You can say that but it doesn't mean your not a p**ck for doing so.

A bit of basic respect for other people goes a long way.

Brian?

S.G.M. wrote: »

As long as what they are talking about isn't detrimental to others then why wouldn't you respect something that is important to someone.
It would be like someone saying 'Why do I have to respect your cat? I can say it looks hideous if I want to'.
You can say that but it doesn't mean your not a p**ck for doing so.

A bit of basic respect for other people goes a long way.

I disagree on what constitutes “basic respect”, to be honest. I would never include religious beliefs in it.

In this situation basic respect would have been to inform the entire team that people needed to work on Christmas Day. Give them a really good explanation of why and how many people it will be. Then ask the workforce if they can come up with a solution of who works.

This should have all been done in September. Christmas is a big deal, whether you’re religious or not. The lack of respect here is both in the time frame and the lack of consultations.

Brian?

Brian? wrote: »

I disagree on what constitutes “basic respect”, to be honest. I would never include religious beliefs in it.

In this situation basic respect would have been to inform the entire team that people needed to work on Christmas Day. Give them a really good explanation of why and how many people it will be. Then ask the workforce if they can come up with a solution of who works.

This should have all been done in September. Christmas is a big deal, whether you’re religious or not. The lack of respect here is both in the time frame and the lack of consultations.

The op said that meeting was called end of November to inform them of who would be working, prior to that they were looking for volunteers. Sounds like they did what you said they should, then one month in advance they had to make a decision because not enough people volunteered.

el_gaucho

They handled it badly and it’s galling to call it volunteering when they know people were given no choice, but surly not illegal.

Is this company based in Cork by any chance?

Brian?

Dav010 wrote: »

The op said that meeting was called end of November to inform them of who would be working, prior to that they were looking for volunteers. Sounds like they did what you said they should, then one month in advance they had to make a decision because not enough people volunteered.

The end of November is far too late. Should have been done much earlier.

ZX7R

Brian? wrote: »

The end of November is far too late. Should have been done much earlier.

Not really you have to many people that could let's say get sick in that period.and someone said September hell no ,there would be an influx of annual leave requests

Brian?

Brian? wrote: »

The end of November is far too late. Should have been done much earlier.

The op said that meeting in November happened because they couldn’t get enough volunteers. So the process started before that.

AmberGold

Could be easily remedied by putting generous incentives in place to encourage staff to work Christmas Day.

S.G.M.

Brian? wrote:

I disagree on what constitutes “basic respectâ€, to be honest. I would never include religious beliefs in it.

I was just replying to your comment, not the OP's situation.
If you're happy to disrespect something that is incredibly important to some people then we have too very differing approaches.

Graham

I don't see any suggestion the OP is being discriminated against on religious grounds (or any of the other protect grounds).

_Brian

It’s incredulous that people here think that an employer scheduling an employee to work Christmas Day is being disrespectful to their religion or discriminating against them on grounds of religion.

People need to realise that work is work, it doesn’t have to facilitate religion.

OP was told in November that they were working at the end of December. That’s sufficient legal notice, of course OP has the right to apply for leave for the day but the employer has the right to refuse that.

I understand people don’t like working major holidays, I never loved it myself, amd got plenty of “feedback” from employees who I schedule on for major holidays, but it really is a case of suck it up, or leave and find a job where working major holidays isn’t a thing.

Mrs OBumble

Brian? wrote: »

The end of November is far too late. Should have been done much earlier.

One month's notice of rosters is standard.

Wanderer78

Some employers would wanna get over themselves, only critical services need to run on Christmas day

splinter65

Ironicname wrote: »

You are joking?

You do know that people have the right to practice a religion and that many, many people all over the world continue to do so??

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Some employers would wanna get over themselves, only critical services need to run on Christmas day

Not for you to decide, providing support may be critical obligation for service providers. This was discussed on another thread, for many, Christmas Day is still a day that they use their devices and media.

Wanderer78

Dav010 wrote:

Not for you to decide, providing support may be critical obligation for service providers. This was discussed on another thread, for many, Christmas Day is still a day that they use their devices and media.

Gimme a break, big wopptie do if devices and media stop working, I suspect very few lives would be lost if so

splinter65

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Some employers would wanna get over themselves, only critical services need to run on Christmas day

Why?

splinter65

splinter65 wrote: »

You do know that people have the right to practice a religion and that many, many people all over the world continue to do so??

Of course, but practicing your religion should not impact your job. An employer cannot be accused of discrimination for not recognising a holy day, if you took all religions into consideration, every day could be a holy day to someone.

Dav010

Dav010 wrote: »

Of course, but practicing your religion should not impact your job. An employer cannot be accused of discrimination for not recognising a holy day, if you took all religions into consideration, every day could be a holy day to someone.

Every other religion would get more consideration than Christianity in the Ireland we live in now.

Wanderer78

splinter65 wrote:

Why?

Why not, this is ridiculous stuff, people need time off to, strangely enough, happier workers are better workers, not giving them time off, particularly during major holidays can create a highly toxic working environment

jlm29

You can go to Christmas mass on Christmas Eve night if that’s bothering you. You’d probably even catch an early mass before heading to work.
Lots and lots of people who are religious will be working, and will have done so often. You can work around it. If not, I’m sure god will forgive you. It’s s****y to have to work Christmas Day, I’ve done it myself in the past. Using religion as a reason you can’t Is ridiculous though.

Graham

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Why not, this is ridiculous stuff, people need time off to, strangely enough, happier workers are better workers, not giving them time off, particularly during major holidays can create a highly toxic working environment

Trying to work out how any of that is useful to the OP.

Got nothing.

Ironicname

splinter65 wrote:

You do know that people have the right to practice a religion and that many, many people all over the world continue to do so??

And working on Xmas day is stopping them practice their religion how exactly?

Brian?

ZX7R wrote: »

Not really you have to many people that could let's say get sick in that period.and someone said September hell no ,there would be an influx of annual leave requests

I’ve been involved in it as a manager and employee for the last 20 years and we never had a problem making it work.

There are plenty of businesses that run 365 days. Year.

Brian?

Dav010 wrote: »

The op said that meeting in November happened because they couldn’t get enough volunteers. So the process started before that.

Yes, I know. But the end of November was too late to follow up. It should have been done earlier. We had this done in September. Volunteers and requests done by then.

Brian?

S.G.M. wrote: »

I was just replying to your comment, not the OP's situation.
If you're happy to disrespect something that is incredibly important to some people then we have too very differing approaches.

I’m not actively disrespecting someone’s religion beliefs. But I don’t see it as something that should automatically figure into work decisions. It’s a choice to be religious, missing out on religious festivals is an inevitable consequence of making that choice in a secular world.

ED E

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Some employers would wanna get over themselves, only critical services need to run on Christmas day

There's a strong bet that the OP is an Apple rep, they're one of few with a large number of remote CSRs.

xMas day, new iPhones and iPads etc.....

Brian?

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

One month's notice of rosters is standard.

I’m sure it is. But it’s not a very nice way to treat people. I do plenty of things for my people that isn’t standard because I fully believe a happy worker is more productive. It’s stupid to treat people this way IMO. Nothing illegal about it, but plenty of poor planning.

Strumms

Brian? wrote: »

There are plenty of businesses that run 365 days. Year.

Many businesses that NEED to.

Many others who CHOOSE to - they get the horn by advertising that they are operating 24/7 365 days a year... or whatever.

Going back 18 years ago I had to work one, a company who manufactures stop smoking patches, so busy at Christmas. My job was to enroll people into the ‘plan’ when they’d call... because I was then single, no kids.. I was volunteered ‘off shift’... basically penalized for not having a family.

gandalf

The employer has handled this in an extremely clumsy fashion however if you work for a company that has to provide cover during these times then the management have to ensure they have adequate cover especially if the services/products they sell are technology based and being gifted.

My employer is shutting down over Christmas and we have been forced to take leave. That's not a problem for me as I love having a break over Christmas and I ensure I have days off to spare to cover it but some of my colleagues are not happy about this at all.

At the end of the day your employer dictates what leave you take to suit their business needs and yes the fact it is impacting you on one of the main holidays of the year sucks. If you don't like it ensure you change to an employer who doesn't need you to cover Christmas day next year.

Arghus

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

One month's notice of rosters is standard.

In theory, yes. But you'd be surprised how much it doesn't happen, particularly with shift work.