Airbnb - renting room + house for weekend when tenants are away

j.s. pill II

Situation: I am owner/occupier of a 2 bedroom house in Dublin. I rent one room to tenants (couple).

I am due to be posted overseas for work next month. Posting is for 3 years. I would very much like to give the current tenants the opportunity to stay on in the house. I had floated the idea of simply taking in a new tenant in my place but they would prefer take on the property for themselves.

Proposal: The tenants go home pretty much every weekend owing to family obligations. An idea that I have been exploring is, for the weekends the tenants are away, putting tenant's current room under lock and key and putting house + my current room for let on Airbnb (let days would amount to less than 90 per year).

I would like to arrange some kind of split for any income that may be generated from this venture. In the first instance, I would be renting the house to current tenants so the airbnb is a kind sublet on their part. Has anyone rented out in a similar property in a similar way? What would be considered a fair split? This could be win win for all of us as income tenants get would help with their rent - which I suspect might be a little out of their range as things stands.

I would need to give the tenants control over what weekends they want to put the property on Airbnb. Would there likely be any practical issues to having joint access to Airbnb account? I should be able to easily manage cleaning/services etc as I have family 2 doors up and plenty of contacts for cleaning services.

I am only at the 'idea' stage right now. I'm a meticulous researcher but this work posting was sprung on me at the last minute so any help with the broad strokes would be greatly appreciated. I am researching tax matters separately.

Many thanks

whomitconcerns

So you want your tenants to allow strangers into their home at weekends... Sorry but I can't see this working on any level. At the moment they are licencees not tenants as they live with you the owner.

Your not there then they become tenants. Different legal obligations and your stranger at the weekend idea losses value fast...

Gumbo

Will you require planning permission based on the new rules?
Will your tenants allow people into their room in their absence and if so will they be compensated for this?

What if they decide on a Friday afternoon that they want to stay for the weekend? What if you have a booking and your tenants are in watching tv and sitting up for a movie late (which they’re are entitled to)?

Personally, it sounds messy and not fair on the tenants. And I say that as a landlord.

JJJackal

Where would you put the tenants other possessions eg food etc during the weekend so that your new tenants (Air BNB) dont use them?

What will be the utilities split be?

What if your Air bnb tenants dont leave the house clean on Sunday evening? Will your family be available to clean it Sunday evening before your regular tenants come back? Will they do this every week for you?

j.s. pill II

whomitconcerns wrote: »

So you want your tenants to allow strangers into their home at weekends... Sorry but I can't see this working on any level. At the moment they are licencees not tenants as they live with you the owner.

Your not there then they become tenants. Different legal obligations and your stranger at the weekend idea losses value fast...

As stated, I will be overseas for next 3 years. I will no longer be living in the property. Should the licencees (yes, correct term - for now) wish to take over property themselves, I will provide new lease (i.e. they will become tenants).


Any arrangements re airbnb sublet will be with express consent of tenants. Again, this is merely an idea/proposal I am exploring for now. I don't wish for people to speculate whether this is an arrangement that people (themselves, tenants or otherwise) may find desireable.

JJJackal

j.s. pill II wrote: »

As stated, I will be overseas for next 3 years. I will no longer be living in the property. Should the licencees (yes, correct term - for now) wish to take over property themselves, I will provide new lease (i.e. they will become tenants).


Any arrangements re airbnb sublet will be with express consent of tenants. Again, this is merely an idea/proposal I am exploring for now. I don't wish for people to speculate whether this is an arrangement that people (themselves, tenants or otherwise) may find desireable.

I suspect this would not be a profitable endeavour and lead to alot of hassle for you (which if you are not in the country you probably dont need)

j.s. pill II

JJJackal wrote: »

Where would you put the tenants other possessions eg food etc during the weekend so that your new tenants (Air BNB) dont use them?

What will be the utilities split be?

What if your Air bnb tenants dont leave the house clean on Sunday evening? Will your family be available to clean it Sunday evening before your regular tenants come back? Will they do this every week for you?

These are certianly important matters to consider (I have answers...family certianly will not be hired for cleaning! ).

For now, l'd be grateful if we could try and focus thread down to questions I asked in OP. Cheers

j.s. pill II

kceire wrote: »

Will you require planning permission based on the new rules?
Will your tenants allow people into their room in their absence and if so will they be compensated for this?

What if they decide on a Friday afternoon that they want to stay for the weekend? What if you have a booking and your tenants are in watching tv and sitting up for a movie late (which they’re are entitled to)?

Personally, it sounds messy and not fair on the tenants. And I say that as a landlord.

1) Nope. if rented for less than 90 days in year change of permission not required.

2) Nope. As stated, There are two rooms. My old room is the one I propose to have airbnb guests in. Tenants room will be locked

3) I want tenants to have sole control over when they want to let.

Calina

This is a beyond stupid idea. If I were your tenants it would be a straight no.

Are you in the Irish accommodation market? Because if so, it is even crappier and less professional than I thought it was. Cannot believe an owner occupier would come up with this idea. Most owners would have caniptions if their tenants airbnbed the place.

looksee

So the tenants let the place to a crowd who come and have a mad party (only two booked but they gained some hangers on). They trash the place. You ask tenants why they let to an unreliable crowd and didn't supervise them. They say they just let the place as instructed and had to go home for various reasons. You try to claim off your insurance. Insurance say 'hey, you are not living there and your tenants are subletting, sorry no insurance'. You ask your relations to sort it but they are all busy.

Yes sounds like a great idea.

Gumbo

j.s. pill II wrote: »

1) Nope. if rented for less than 90 days in year change of permission not required.

2) Nope. As stated, There are two rooms. My old room is the one I propose to have airbnb guests in. Tenants room will be locked

3) I want tenants to have sole control over when they want to let.

If the tenants have sole control, who earns the air bnb money?

elperello

Just get someone else who is interested in renting the other room and get your family to keep an eye on things for you.

Tell me how

Practicalities of AirBnb mean that someone needs to clean property after guests visit. Many places use lockboxes and do meet guest in person now, but, given there are tenants in this property I think it is essential that someone would show guests around so they can answer questions about access to certain areas and food or other items such as toiletries belonging to tenants etc.

Can see it being way more hassle than it is worth.

Suggest you get a full time tenant for your room or let the tenants in the house get a friend in and prepare appropriate rental agreement.

I'm living in US at the moment and have a house empty back in Ireland. Need to decide what to do with it and it's a bit of a headwreck.

martyoo

Calina wrote: »

This is a beyond stupid idea. If I were your tenants it would be a straight no.

Are you in the Irish accommodation market? Because if so, it is even crappier and less professional than I thought it was. Cannot believe an owner occupier would come up with this idea. Most owners would have caniptions if their tenants airbnbed the place.

Did you bother to read the OP? They don't want someone else moving in and this is a suggested alternative.

Regardless it sounds like too much hassle. Personally I'd move another tenant in to take the room and if they don't like it then tough.

Ubbquittious

Ahh Jaysis the auld tiger is in full swing, every Tom, Dick and Harry trying to extract a few bob out of the property market. Why not throw an auld matress in under the stairs and rent that out as a room. The garden shed could make a few bob as well fuk all the tools out into a skip sure you hardly use them and you can just buy new ones when the next crash comes along with all your millions

j.s. pill II

Calina wrote: »

This is a beyond stupid idea. If I were your tenants it would be a straight no.

Are you in the Irish accommodation market? Because if so, it is even crappier and less professional than I thought it was. Cannot believe an owner occupier would come up with this idea. Most owners would have caniptions if their tenants airbnbed the place.

May indeed be a stupid idea. That's precisely why I am asking people who may have had involvement in such arrangements before taking any action

I suggest you have a read back through the thread and look at the details. Prime reason behind the idea is that tennants can earn some money off what will be a spare room + vacant property at the weekend. May not be able to afford rent for whole house otherwise.

And it is just an idea. Can't say I'm entirely un-sympathetic to your venting at landlords. Whole city is just god-awful. I haven't raised rent on my own place a cent in the last 3 years and I try to keep everything as transparent and above board as I can.

j.s. pill II

Ubbquittious wrote: »

Ahh Jaysis the auld tiger is in full swing, every Tom, Dick and Harry trying to extract a few bob out of the property market. Why not throw an auld matress in under the stairs and rent that out as a room. The garden shed could make a few bob as well fuk all the tools out into a skip sure you hardly use them and you can just buy new ones when the next crash comes along with all your millions

Not an entirely unfair assessment - please see above comment

Spanish Eyes

I don't know what the problem is here, other than planning permission.

If your tenants are OK with it, go for it, but don't expect current tenants to prepare or clean up after AB+B guests leave. Honestly, any tenant/licensee would be mad to agree to this.

Anyway what I cannot figure out is WHY you would want the hassle of all this. Answers on a postcard please!

Oh and your tax situation will change too. Check it out.

j.s. pill II

mikemac2 wrote: »

I lived in a house share where this was done. We all rented room by room but we were tenants with leases. Not licencees

The landlady decided to rent out a room or two on air bnb

Us tenants come out of bedrooms in the morning and see a chap with a toothbrush, who are you ??? Air bnb guests assuming they get toilet paper and tea and other stuff includes but the tenants paid for that , not the landlady. Oh these things are cheap but we didn’t get a cent of the air bnb but we pay for these. Our food got taken too and what can we do , the person may be gone.

Complaints were made and the landlady decided to keep the long term tenants happy instead

Air bnb can work and renters can work but not mixing the both

And OP your idea is even more complicated as you want the tenants to manage it

Jesus - that is just mental


How did the landlady get away with suddenly deciding to rent out rooms if existing tenants had a lease? Madness.

j.s. pill II

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I don't know what the problem is here, other than planning permission.

If your tenants are OK with it, go for it, but don't expect current tenants to prepare or clean up after AB+B guests leave. Honestly, any tenant/licensee would be mad to agree to this.

Anyway what I cannot figure out is WHY you would want the hassle of all this. Answers on a postcard please!

Oh and your tax situation will change too. Check it out.

No planning permission change required is place is rented less than 90 days per year

Intention would be for pre/post cleaning to be handled by paid cleaner. Current one I use occasionally is very reasonable

Looking in to tax issues. Big change now that my rent a room break will be gone

James Bond Junior

I'm an overseas landlord and your situation sounds like a dream one. You have tenants ready to take over your place, who you have personally vetted and can rest easy the place is being looked after and they are only there 5 days a week so wear and tear is reduced. If you are going abroad you can register as non domiciled and will only be liable for 20% tax so you're already ahead. You've been dealt a decent hand, don't push it would be my take on it.

dori_dormer

Either, rent your room out to a new tenant. Or offer the entire property to your current licencees at an increased, rate applicable to the area.
Dont go messing about with rent, Airbnb strangers+ cleaners and forgein landlord taxes on top of it all. keep it as simple as possible

1 tenant = simple!

j.s. pill II

j.s. pill II wrote: »

Jesus - that is just mental


How did the landlady get away with suddenly deciding to rent out rooms if existing tenants had a lease? Madness.

If they were only renting rooms what right had they to stop the LL renting out other rooms anyway she wanted.

bbbbb

There might be other things you both need to consider, as it sounds like you will become a non resident
https://www.revenue.ie/en/tax-professionals/tdm/income-tax-capital-gains-tax-corporation-tax/part-45/45-01-04.pdf
(I’m not an accountant, and I’ve no first hand experience of this)

JJJackal

Jessa Better Restoration wrote: »

If they were only renting rooms what right had they to stop the LL renting out other rooms anyway she wanted.

No right but on the same note the LL new tenants stole from the original tenants and thus technically a crime was comitted

ted1

j.s. pill II wrote: »

1) Nope. if rented for less than 90 days in year change of permission not required.

2) Nope. As stated, There are two rooms. My old room is the one I propose to have airbnb guests in. Tenants room will be locked

3) I want tenants to have sole control over when they want to let.

I may be wrong but are the Tenants are allowed sub let via airbnb, the 90 days applied to whole properties and not single rooms.

TSQ

Your best bet is to charge existing tenants close to going rent for your area for an entire house, as you say they are interested in taking it on. Then tell them they can airbnb your room (or entire house) while you are away, if rent is unaffordable. Assume you dont want either your tenants or for yourself to take another full-time tenant as you will want to return in 3 years and maybe stay the odd weekend yourself when you are home (make sure this is specified in any new agreement, in other words, you retain residency rights and they remain licencees, if thats what you want). Insist on only airbnb platform. You can open an airbnb account with yourself as main host and tenants as co-host, or vice-versa, that way you will be able to monitor what is going on while still allowing tenants control over when and to whom the room is airbnb’d. If you are in Dublin, there is a reliable company that will manage your property including linen and cleaning, if tenants dont want this hassle, but at a high cost. Tenants might prefer to keep the extra income and do it themselves. You will have to discuss the tax implications, as to who, you or the tenants, declare the income. Stays over 2 weeks can be considered residential, less than that is a tourist letting as far as I know, in which case tenants could be liable for tax if the airbnb inccome goes into their bank account. will need some thought And advice from accountant if you all agree to go ahead with this arrangement. Complicated but do-able if you have good relationship with tenants.

SozBbz

Agree with others, proposition is pure madness.

You seem to put a lot of stock into what the current licensees can afford and what they want.

They can't dictate both of those things. They can either pay a decent rate for the whole place and perhaps (insurance allowing) they may wish to airbnb or sublet themselves, making the tax/logistical issues theirs and not yours. A lot of LLs won't allow this at all, so this would be decent of you.

Or, you can keep charging them whatever it is you charge them and get a new tenant in for your room at the going rate.

If they want the whole place, then they have to pay the whole place price. If theyre not in a position to do this, then they don't get to dictate what happens with your former room. Tell them you need the income regardless, what would be fair is to allow them to vet prospective roommates so that they get a say on who they'd be living with.

You being involved in airbnbs at a distance seems ridiculous to me.

jimmycrackcorm

I use Airbnb abroad several times a month where this is a normal scenario.

Some rooms are rented to regular long term tenants and as such the kitchen and fridge etc are reserved for them. It's not a problem.

In the ops case I think there is a benefit in that the service / cleaning fee should make things more palatable.

ridonkulous

So you want to Airbnb your room at weekends. My room will be locked while I'm away. You'll cut me in on the Airbnb money. I'll have the place to myself Monday to Friday give or take a few hours on a Friday and Monday for check-in and check-out.

Where do I sign up?!

Sounds like a win win to me. I'd much prefer it to a permanent house/flat share especially if I'm in a relationship and especially if I'm away most if not all weekends anyway.

The only place I can see there being an issue is if I have to be away on prearranged Airbnb weekends but if that's not the case then it sounds good to me from a tenants points of view.

I don't get all the outrage about it being a terrible idea. Different people have different lifestyles and requirements. This one sounds workable to me as a tenant anyway.

Del2005

One thing to be aware of is when you move away the people in the apartment will change from licences to tenants, you can write any contract you want if they go legal they are tenants. So while they may agree to the ludicrous proposal and even sign a contract the law is clear that you can't sign away your rights. The proposed new tenancy laws alse mean that you might not be able to get your home back when you return in 3 years.

yosser hughes

j.s. pill II wrote: »

May indeed be a stupid idea. That's precisely why

I suggest you have a read back through the thread and look at the details. Prime reason behind the idea is that tennants can earn some money off what will be a spare room + vacant property at the weekend. .

Of course it is! How altruistic of you!

spurious

I think you'd want to be charging very little for the AirBnB person to choose a house full of (to them) randomers than staying with the owner, which is the usual option if not renting the whole place.
A really good location might override that.

whomitconcerns

Just to clarify, you would reduce their rent by 8 days a month as they are not there. And then split the Airbnb money for the other 8 days with them. Also pay for cleaning and deal with any issues that may arise. Sounds like a pain and an admin nightmare for the sake of maybe 4 days revenue extra....

That's before you look at the issues for the tenant I mentioned earlier..

Why bother?? Seriously?

handlemaster

j.s. pill II wrote: »

Situation: I am owner/occupier of a 2 bedroom house in Dublin. I rent one room to tenants (couple).

I am due to be posted overseas for work next month. Posting is for 3 years. I would very much like to give the current tenants the opportunity to stay on in the house. I had floated the idea of simply taking in a new tenant in my place but they would prefer take on the property for themselves.

Proposal: The tenants go home pretty much every weekend owing to family obligations. An idea that I have been exploring is, for the weekends the tenants are away, putting tenant's current room under lock and key and putting house + my current room for let on Airbnb (let days would amount to less than 90 per year).

I would like to arrange some kind of split for any income that may be generated from this venture. In the first instance, I would be renting the house to current tenants so the airbnb is a kind sublet on their part. Has anyone rented out in a similar property in a similar way? What would be considered a fair split? This could be win win for all of us as income tenants get would help with their rent - which I suspect might be a little out of their range as things stands.

I would need to give the tenants control over what weekends they want to put the property on Airbnb. Would there likely be any practical issues to having joint access to Airbnb account? I should be able to easily manage cleaning/services etc as I have family 2 doors up and plenty of contacts for cleaning services.

I am only at the 'idea' stage right now. I'm a meticulous researcher but this work posting was sprung on me at the last minute so any help with the broad strokes would be greatly appreciated. I am researching tax matters separately.

Many thanks

In short a crazy /ridiculous idea.

Bigus

Nothwithstanding that you NOW, get on well with your lodgers at the moment, there’s a good chance when you come back after 3 years they will have turned into low paying entitled sitting tenants.

There’s also a good chance you could get a higher income for the house if you just Airbnb’d It , without other lodgers, even if only for 90 days at peak, with less wear and tear and depreciation on fixtures and fittings and vacant possession when you come back to live in or sell.
However you need to allow the cost of hands on management in the Airbnb scenario.

Alternatively go full on managed Airbnb and do a heavily discounted Airbnb rate for current lodgers,on their current room (but now serviced room)which may overcome the sitting tenant scenario.

Del2005

Del2005 wrote: »

One thing to be aware of is when you move away the people in the apartment will change from licences to tenants, you can write any contract you want if they go legal they are tenants. So while they may agree to the ludicrous proposal and even sign a contract the law is clear that you can't sign away your rights. The proposed new tenancy laws alse mean that you might not be able to get your home back when you return in 3 years.

If the current licensee is only renting a room even becoming a tenant will not give them any say over the other room. So in this way the ops plan is actually quite good (maybe its why they are thinking of doing it). They airbnb the room to up the income but if they come to visit or want to move back they can simply move straight back in as the person renting the other room has no say.

Once the op moves back in they then turn back into a licensee as a tenancy cannot exist if you live with the owner.

So the important thing for the op is to only rent the person a room rather than the full apartment as if its the full apartment then your scenario is a possibility but if they only rent room they have no say over anything bar their own room and the op can airbnb without their consent if he wishes they dont have to agree to it.

My take on it would be (if the op wants to proceed). Rent the current lodger a room and no more. Don't split airbnb money, don't involve then in the airbnb etc, what ever you do don't reduce their rent by 8 days. Overall you are probably as well off just to rent out the other room individually, who cares if the lodger doesn't like the idea they have no say.

Mic 1972

Rent-a-room only applies to owners who occupy the property
If you are going to be away for 3 years you will have to rent the apartmanet as a whole, you can't lock one room away from the licencee.
I may not be so easy to have your apartment back after the 3 years if the current tenants want to stay on

Mic 1972

Jessa Better Restoration wrote: »

If the current licensee is only renting a room even becoming a tenant will not give them any say over the other room.

You cant rent only a portion of your house. Tenancy means renting out the whole apartment
In order to avail of rent-a-room the owner must live in the house too

dennyk

Del2005 wrote: »

One thing to be aware of is when you move away the people in the apartment will change from licences to tenants, you can write any contract you want if they go legal they are tenants. So while they may agree to the ludicrous proposal and even sign a contract the law is clear that you can't sign away your rights.

It should be noted that this isn't necessarily always the case; licensee arrangements can exist even in non-owner-occupied properties, provided the landlord maintains the necessary control over the property. It's very fact-dependent, though, and from what I understand, the RTB will tend to lean towards the side of declaring the situation a tenancy unless it is very, very clearly a licensee situation in fact.

That said, the OP's AirBnB plan is not legally possible in any case; once he no longer resides in the property, it will no longer be his principal private residence for the purpose of the short-term letting regulations, which means he would need planning permission to let out any rooms in the property on a short-term basis, period. Short-term room lets are only exempt from planning permission if it's a room in the landlord's PPR. The "90 day rule" only applies to lets of the entire property and only when it is still the owner's PPR (which it won't be if he's residing outside of Ireland for multiple years).

OP, don't forget to consider the tax implications of any of these plans as well. You will no longer be able to avail of the Rent-a-Room tax relief on your current lodger, even if they were to remain a licensee (which is not necessarily possible). AirBnB is also never eligible for Rent-a-Room relief no matter what the circumstances. Should you rent out your entire property under a tenancy arrangement, as an overseas landlord your tenant (or your Irish-based agent, should you choose to use such a service) will be required to withhold 20% of the total rent payment and remit that to Revenue on your behalf, as well.

Mic 1972

Mic 1972 wrote: »

You cant rent only a portion of your house. Tenancy means renting out the whole apartment
In order to avail of rent-a-room the owner must live in the house too

Of course you can rent rooms separately, letting houses by the room is commonplace.

There is no issue whatsoever in just renting a room to the lodger after the Op moves out and he can do what he pleases with the other room (keep it for himself when he visits, Airbnb it, rent it to another person or combinations of these if he wishes).

dennyk

Jessa Better Restoration wrote: »

There is no issue whatsoever in just renting a room to the lodger after the Op moves out and he can do what he pleases with the other room (keep it for himself when he visits, Airbnb it, rent it to another person or combinations of these if he wishes).

He can't AirBnB it for short-term lets without planning permission. He can let it long-term to another licensee or use it himself on return visits, though.

dennyk

dennyk wrote: »

He can't AirBnB it for short-term lets without planning permission. He can let it long-term to another licensee or use it himself on return visits, though.

Well he can like the 99% of people who are still doing Airbnb as they always did.

In any case I’d question if he needs planning as there is a permeant resident in the house and it’s only a room being let. I doubt it would need planning with that in mind. It’s a situation that’s not really covered under the rules and personally I’d be using the lack of a clear rule on the scenario to mean I can do as I please.

atilladehun

From what I can see your best bet is to rent them the whole place and give them permission to air BnB the other room provided the meet your conditions.

Between the tax, cleaning and hassle it may not be worth anyone's while. Easiest solution is to just rent the other room.

Your tax situation changes then too. It could be worth your while just keeping status quo.

dennyk

Jessa Better Restoration wrote: »

In any case I’d question if he needs planning as there is a permeant resident in the house and it’s only a room being let. I doubt it would need planning with that in mind. It’s a situation that’s not really covered under the rules and personally I’d be using the lack of a clear rule on the scenario to mean I can do as I please.

The law is very clear; the exemption to the requirement of planning permission for a short term room let in an RPZ is only available for a "short term letting in a rent pressure zone of not more than 4 bedrooms in a house that is the principal private residence of the landlord or licensor". If the OP is not residing in their Dublin house because they've moved overseas, then the house is no longer their PPR and the exemption does not apply; for the OP to let a room in that house on a short-term basis would require planning permission.

Now, the OP's tenant, should they have one, could let out rooms in the house themselves on a short term basis without needing planning permission, as it would be the tenant's PPR. The OP's licensee, however, could not, as a licensee can't have licensees of their own since they possess no property rights to license.

The most legal solution for all concerned would be for the OP to convert their current lodger to a tenant, charge them an appropriate market rent for renting the entire property, and allow them to let the other room on AirBnB if they choose to bring in additional income so they can afford the new rent. If the OP doesn't want a tenancy, though, then that won't be possible, and they are left with the legal options of continuing to let a single room to their current licensee and either leaving the second room vacant or letting it to another long-term licensee.

BrokenArrows

Op, the easiest option for you would be to just to increase the rent slightly and allow them to bring in another person.

They pay you the extra rent agreed and use whatever is left to split between them.

j.s. pill II

Hi all,

Just want to say thanks to all who offered their thoughts and views. Hopefully this will provide food for though for others.

Had a chat with the existing occupants last night. They are gonna move out to somewhere in the 'burbs so they can save more. Staying on in my place, whatever the arrangements, isn't really a runner for them. So, they've been given a generous notice period and we will be parting amicably.

Gracias :cool: