Turning up drunk

BDI

What would be the standard way of dealing with an employee that turns up still drunk from the night before each morning. Sometimes it’s likely he may have one or two throughout the day?

I’m just wondering as I know one guy who is at it but management seem afraid to mention it for fear of legal action. It’s a manual job where other employees could possibly be at risk from him dropping something or setting a ladder wrong etc.

MrMusician18

BDI wrote: »

What would be the standard way of dealing with an employee that turns up still drunk from the night before each morning. Sometimes it’s likely he may have one or two throughout the day?

I’m just wondering as I know one guy who is at it but management seem afraid to mention it for fear of legal action. It’s a manual job where other employees could possibly be at risk from him dropping something or setting a ladder wrong etc.

There is no onus on them to act. However if he injures another in the workplace and they know about the problem and did nothing then they would be liable.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

Happened us before. We twigged he was drunk. He was asked to wait in the canteen, informed that he was unfit for work. Because he’d driven in, we couldn’t let him just leave and drive off down the road, so we phoned his next of kin to come pick him up.

BDI

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy wrote: »

Happened us before. We twigged he was drunk. He was asked to wait in the canteen, informed that he was unfit for work. Because he’d driven in, we couldn’t let him just leave and drive off down the road, so we phoned his next of kin to come pick him up.

But what if you let him know he is too drunk to work and he tells you he isn’t and hasn’t been drinking at all. Would the courts take your judgement as reliable.
Could he claim he wasn’t drinking at all even if at the time he was two sheets to the wind? Would it lead to a your word against his legal situation?

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

You’d need to get the company doctor to attend. In our case the employee wasn’t there that long, and still on probation, so we just terminated his contract and paid up his notice.

cml387

We had at least two cases of this over the years.

One poor woman was off to the cloakroom to drink from a bottle of lemonade which was mostly vodka. She left when confronted with the evidence.

One guy was obviously off his head one morning and was driven home This being the culmination of a series of warnings he was fired.

Bear in mind, if you do not report safety concerns you are aware of to your health and safety officer, you are just as culpable if something happens.

BDI

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy wrote: »

You’d need to get the company doctor to attend. In our case the employee wasn’t there that long, and still on probation, so we just terminated his contract and paid up his notice.

So say you are a small company with maybe 30 employees and don’t have a company doctor. Do you need to pre arrange a sort of traveling doctor?

fryup

BDI wrote: »

It’s a manual job where other employees could possibly be at risk from him dropping something or setting a ladder wrong etc.

get him to hold the ladder till he sobers up

BDI

fryup wrote: »

get him to hold the ladder till he sobers up

He seems to have other light mental issues like he just decides his own jobs for the day which usually means horseing about like a hero when the boss is about and leaning up against something when the boss isn’t. Call himself the foreman, manager etc at times and introduces himself to other companies bigwigs like he owns the place.

If you told him to hold the ladder he’d just walk off for awhile and come back an hour later and ask you to hold his ladder while he did something.

Boss seems to think he is fine and to leave him alone. Think he feels sorry for him.

tayto lover

I’m aware of a company which has the same problem with two workers coming in to work while high on weed. They work with machinery too and I’m told that that is dangerous.

Steve

BDI wrote: »

So say you are a small company with maybe 30 employees and don’t have a company doctor. Do you need to pre arrange a sort of traveling doctor?

A company doctor isn't employed by a company, it's an independent doctor nominated to assess employees medical condition. Normally it's for sick leave purposes, however, I'm guessing they could also give a medical opinion as to whether an employee was intoxicated.

BDI

tayto lover wrote: »

I’m aware of a company which has the same problem with two workers coming in to work while high on weed. They work with machinery too and I’m told that that is dangerous.

Of course it is but a pothead will be along shortly to tell you it’s not and the Illuminati just wants to make you believe that.

SEPT 23 1989

Very Hungover or drunk?

There is a big difference

The couple of drinks during the day is his way of just taking the edge off things

Murt102

Steve wrote: »

A company doctor isn't employed by a company, it's an independent doctor nominated to assess employees medical condition. Normally it's for sick leave purposes, however, I'm guessing they could also give a medical opinion as to whether an employee was intoxicated.

How would an employer approach this situation? Would they have the doctor there that morning to do random blood samples with the employees, or would the employer have to send that particular employee to the doctor to be assessed?

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

BDI wrote: »

So say you are a small company with maybe 30 employees and don’t have a company doctor. Do you need to pre arrange a sort of traveling doctor?

Traveling doctor

It’s a bit of a grey area. You can send an employee home if you have “reasonable grounds” to believe they’re under the influence, but it doesn’t state how you can form that opinion, nor if the employee can challenge it.

salmocab

I had an apprentice turn up still a bit drunk once, the foreman wasn’t in that day so I told him to sleep in the canteen for a couple of hours and then do the shop run.

BDI

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Very Hungover or drunk?

There is a big difference

The couple of drinks during the day is his way of just taking the edge off things

If you need a couple of drinks to get through your work day, which is a physical and mentally taxing job you more than likely need help.

A lapse of concentration working around ladders and power tools all day can make you a burden on your family or the state for the rest of your life.

SEPT 23 1989

salmocab wrote: »

I had an apprentice turn up still a bit drunk once, the foreman wasn’t in that day so I told him to sleep in the canteen for a couple of hours and then do the shop run.

The shop run is punishment enough

BDI

salmocab wrote: »

I had an apprentice turn up still a bit drunk once, the foreman wasn’t in that day so I told him to sleep in the canteen for a couple of hours and then do the shop run.

That’d be fine if it wasn’t every morning.

tayto lover

salmocab wrote: »

I had an apprentice turn up still a bit drunk once, the foreman wasn’t in that day so I told him to sleep in the canteen for a couple of hours and then do the shop run.

Different story if he was coming in like that every day I’d say.

Allinall

Send the guy home with no loss of pay.
Next day, have a formal chat outlining the companies suspicions.
See what the response is and go from there.
The employee will know they are on a sticky wicket.

Steve

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy wrote: »

It’s a bit of a grey area. You can send an employee home if you have “reasonable grounds” to believe they’re under the influence, but it doesn’t state how you can form that opinion, nor if the employee can challenge it.

Just being devils advocate here.

What if the employee's job involves having a drink? i.e. to schmooze a potential customer at a trade show or a night out?

How do you differentiate (legally) between that case of being intoxicated and - say - a person whose sole job is to put a label on a box where having had a single drink or coming in hungover would not matter one jot?

Just throwing it out there.

salmocab

tayto lover wrote: »

Different story if he was coming in like that every day I’d say.

Ah yeah it was a one off and he was lucky the foreman was off so I was in charge. If it was regular I’d have just told the foreman to sort it out.

wassie

MrMusician18 wrote: »

There is no onus on them to act....

I'd dispute that - the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act(1989) places a duty upon employers ‘to ensure so far as is reasonably practicable the health and safety of employees’. Critically a company should have a clear alcohol and drug policy that provides a clear procedure for dealing with this.

DesperateDan

I'm surprised how loose the law is on this actually. You could have the company buy a €50 breathalyser and ask him nicely to use it next time he's pissed. Sounds like a bit of a legal nightmare though. Are you sure he's drunk and not just a bit odd?!

Found this: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.hsa.ie/eng/Publications_and_Forms/Publications/Occupational_Health/Intoxicants_at_Work_Information_Sheet_.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj4qdn-4_nlAhUyQRUIHcBwCO4QFjABegQIDhAI&usg=AOvVaw20si9DmIVWLA9S-CK0pIZ1

Mrs OBumble

Allinall wrote: »

Send the guy home with no loss of pay.
Next day, have a formal chat outlining the companies suspicions.
See what the response is and go from there.
The employee will know they are on a sticky wicket.

Whoa there ... potential disability discrimination case coming your way, unless it's handled correctly.

Especially in a small company where the HR person is unlikely to be a specialist, the company should be contracting in advice from professional HR advisers with expertise in this area.

If being intoxicated is a safety issue, there should already be clear policies about it which can be applied. Quite likely this will end in dismissal but there's a route to be followed, which involves giving the person an opportunity to get medical help to manage their mental health issue.

If it's not a safety or company-reputation issue, it's actually a lot harder. You need to manage based on capacity to do the job.

BDI

DesperateDan wrote: »

I'm surprised how loose the law is on this actually. You could have the company buy a €50 breathalyser and ask him nicely to use it next time he's pissed. Sounds like a bit of a legal nightmare though. Are you sure he's drunk and not just a bit odd?!

Found this: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.hsa.ie/eng/Publications_and_Forms/Publications/Occupational_Health/Intoxicants_at_Work_Information_Sheet_.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj4qdn-4_nlAhUyQRUIHcBwCO4QFjABegQIDhAI&usg=AOvVaw20si9DmIVWLA9S-CK0pIZ1

He stinks of booze from 50 paces. Sometimes you can nearly tell the brand of booze he has been drinking the smell is so strong.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

Steve wrote: »

Just being devils advocate here.

What if the employee's job involves having a drink? i.e. to schmooze a potential customer at a trade show or a night out?

How do you differentiate (legally) between that case of being intoxicated and - say - a person whose sole job is to put a label on a box where having had a single drink or coming in hungover would not matter one jot?

Just throwing it out there.

You’d be a foolish employer if you specified that your salesman employee had to have a drink as part of the job. In that situation, I’d just have an expense account for things like that and if the salesman or whatever he is wanted a drink, that’s his own business. He’d need to be pulling in some numbers to justify getting sloshed on company time & money though.

If it’s a production floor though, it’s clear cut. Any drugs or alcohol at all & you’re gonzo, it matters a lot more than one jot!

Hoboo

In this instance;

Duty of care to the employee and all others
Relieved of duty on full pay for rest of the day
Formal investigation and disciplinary process instigated.
Access to EAP or equivalent assistance, plus health and safety training to tick the box.

I don't have time to fill in all the detail but that's the jist.

screamer

This is a can of worms, and poor employers have to facilitate drunken gob****es as they are deemed to have a disability. Same goes for gob****es addicted to gaming. Get yourself a good HR consultant and follow their advise to the letter.

Steve

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy wrote: »

If it’s a production floor though, it’s clear cut. Any drugs or alcohol at all & you’re gonzo, it matters a lot more than one jot!

Again, just throwing it out for the sake of discussion... not too long ago major German manufacturing plants had beer vending machines in their canteens and encouraged employees to use them at lunchtime as a morale boost. Not sure if its still the case, was early 2000's when I seen them.
French, Italian and Swiss also still have no problem with employees having a glass of wine with their lunch.

Sometimes I'm ashamed of how far the Irish have gone up their own ass.

adam88

I hear it’s common practice for the high tech companies to have drunken Friday parties while on company time in their headquarters and offices

John_Rambo

adam88 wrote: »

I hear it’s common practice for the high tech companies to have drunken Friday parties while on company time in their headquarters and offices

I worked in a few ad agencies, they weren't all the same, but I couldn't make up the stuff I witnessed when it came to workplace booze & sex.

Eggs For Dinner

MrMusician18 wrote:

There is no onus on them to act. However if he injures another in the workplace and they know about the problem and did nothing then they would be liable.

If he injures another in the workplace, his employer is liable regardless. If the employer knew about his drunkenness and did nothing about it, his insurers will not be indemnifying him for any claim the injured party may take

Johnny Sausage

John_Rambo wrote: »

I worked in a few ad agencies, they weren't all the same, but I couldn't make up the stuff I witnessed when it came to workplace booze & sex.

ok Don Draper

Tordelback

This discussion is incredible to me,like something I remember from the 80s or early 90s. How this is dealt with is set out in your workplace's Safety Statement. If it exists at all, which it legally has to,I guarantee it says 'employees may not attend work while under the influence of drugs or alcohol'. This also puts the responsibility for policing thison everyone in the workplace, but particularly supervisors/foreman. Send him home, issue a warning. Not complicated.

If the issue is documenting it to prevent unfair dismissal claim, company should have written disciplinary procedure for that. If they don't, they're morons. You print one off the internet and hand it out day one. Follow it to the letter and no claim will stick.

And before I get 'live in the real world' advice, I'm over 30 years in construction, as subby, employee, sole trader and company director. I'm typing this in the canteen on a housing development.

OMM 0000

I've had to deal with both drunk staff (alcoholic) and high staff (drug addict).

I have a lot of sympathy and compassion for people with addiction issues.

The issue I had with both cases is they denied the problem. They didn't have to admit they have a problem, but I did need them to admit they are drunk/high, and that it needs to stop, or at least improve over time. I was willing to work with them on this, but they just denied everything. That forced me to start disciplinary procedures.

Luckily (?) one drunk girl moved teams (naive manager), and the high girl resigned.

Managers are people and if you have an issue with things, you should talk to them. Get them on your side rather than make yourself a problem.

BDI

Tordelback wrote: »

This discussion is incredible to me,like something I remember from the 80s or early 90s. How this is dealt with is set out in your workplace's Safety Statement. If it exists at all, which it legally has to,I guarantee it says 'employees may not attend work while under the influence of drugs or alcohol'. This also puts the responsibility for policing thison everyone in the workplace, but particularly supervisors/foreman. Send him home, issue a warning. Not complicated.

If the issue is documenting it to prevent unfair dismissal claim, company should have written disciplinary procedure for that. If they don't, they're morons. You print one off the internet and hand it out day one. Follow it to the letter and no claim will stick.

And before I get 'live in the real world' advice, I'm over 30 years in construction, as subby, employee, sole trader and company director. I'm typing this in the canteen on a housing development.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a company director slumming it in a new build houseing estate canteen.

John_Rambo

Johnny Sausage wrote: »

ok Don Draper

Lol! Yeah... But I'm not kidding you. Different agencies had different morals, but some of them were unbelievable. The bigger the clients the more debauchery.

Tordelback

BDI wrote: »

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a company director slumming it in a new build houseing estate canteen.

Heh, not a company director any more! 2010 happened, so this morning I was energetically bleaching the gents. Also, you almost certainly have seen a director in a building site canteen - any limited company has two directors, majority will work at whatever they're qualified as most of the time. It's more a matter of limiting your liability compared to that of a sole trader, than it is lounging around in a boardroom.

cml387

John_Rambo wrote: »

Lol! Yeah... But I'm not kidding you. Different agencies had different morals, but some of them were unbelievable. The bigger the clients the more debauchery.

I did see a picture from a work colleague of his son's workplace (Docklands,internet thingummy) complete with beer taps.

Rubberchikken

we had an episode like this at work.
the staff member was unsteady and had a smell of alcohol coming from them.
when it was brought up they admitted they had been sneaking out to their car for swigs of vodka when they got a chance.
they were fired, plain and simple.

its in our contract and they were a risk to people in our work.

starbaby2003

cml387 wrote: »

I did see a picture from a work colleague of his son's workplace (Docklands,internet thingummy) complete with beer taps.

We have a bar in work.

biko

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

The couple of drinks during the day is his way of just taking the edge off things

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2_8Igq7ko4

Timistry

Rubberchikken wrote: »

we had an episode like this at work.
the staff member was unsteady and had a smell of alcohol coming from them.
when it was brought up they admitted they had been sneaking out to their car for swigs of vodka when they got a chance.
they were fired, plain and simple.

its in our contract and they were a risk to people in our work.

100%

If there is an accident and during the investigation it is found that the management were aware of the issue, there could be legal ramifications for management. Set out in Irish law for years and in most contracts e.g. gross misconduct

Andrew00

How the hell could anyone be drunk the next morning? How's that even possible?

Mrs OBumble

Andrew00 wrote: »

How the hell could anyone be drunk the next morning? How's that even possible?

The guards routinely find people still driving drunk the morning after.

Andrew00

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

The guards routinely find people still driving drunk the morning after.

But ur physically not drunk or however u want to put it.

Just suffering from a hangover

JeffKenna

Andrew00 wrote: »

But ur physically not drunk or however u want to put it.

Just suffering from a hangover

I've often woke up after a heavy session still drunk.
Never on a work day mind you.

Probably says a lot about me!

BDI

Andrew00 wrote: »

But ur physically not drunk or however u want to put it.

Just suffering from a hangover

I seen at least twice ten or so years ago lads being sent home. One walked off the building site singing rebel songs the other went to the car park and did donuts in his car then drove off. Both were still last orders at the pub drunk.

Mrs OBumble

Andrew00 wrote: »

But ur physically not drunk or however u want to put it.

Just suffering from a hangover

Denial is not just a river.

If you are over the limit to drive, that's not a hangover, you are still drunk.

Very roughly (and with lots of individual variation) it takes your body an hour to process one standard drink. That's half a pint. So if you have six pints starting at 9pm ie one every 1/2 hour for three hours, you will still be processing alcohol the following 9am.