Self Employment Payment is a Farce

ArtMonkey

Never mind.

171170

ArtMonkey wrote: »

This new payment for the self employed is a farce, it's just job seekers. I just had my review for my self employment status, showed them how hard I've been working, it's full-time for me, plenty of sales, and they send me for Job Path!? How am I supposed to run my own business and attend all their ridiculous meetings and get a job at the same time...??? Anyone else have a similar experience? They are treating genuine people like dirt.

If you're working full time and have "plenty of sales" and are so busy "running your own business" that you haven't time to "get a job" why are you looking for a jobseeker's allowance payment?

Unless your business is running at a loss, in which case wouldn't it be wiser to consider winding it up and applying for the JB(SE) scheme.

minikin

171170 wrote: »

If you're working full time and have "plenty of sales" and are so busy "running your own business" that you haven't time to "get a job" why are you looking for a jobseeker's allowance payment?

Unless your business is running at a loss, in which case wouldn't it be wiser to consider winding it up and applying for the JB(SE) scheme.

Perhaps the business, while busy, is not particularly lucrative. It could be in considerable debt, the owner has personal guarantees with the bank and can’t afford to wind it up. Not all business owners are millionaires, despite what some folks in social welfare think. Some have put everything on the line to try make a go of things (providing employment to others).

171170

minikin wrote: »

Perhaps the business, while busy, is not particularly lucrative. It could be in considerable debt, the owner has personal guarantees with the bank and can’t afford to wind it up. Not all business owners are millionaires, despite what some folks in social welfare think. Some have put everything on the line to try make a go of things (providing employment to others).

All very true, however, the payment is there for a purpose and that purpose is not to subsidise one self-employed businessmen who, presumably, is in competition with other, unsubsidised, self-employed businessmen.

That said, I fail to understand the referral to Job Path which seems insane, unless they reckon that the business has no future.

171170

ArtMonkey wrote: »

The payment is supposed to help people get off the ground, otherwise what's the point in it? Anyway, I asked if anyone else had similar experiences, not for a lecture from a state defending, self-righteous, Leo-worshipping unrealistic ideologist.

The tenor of that response may help to indicate why your business isn't going well, although hopefully you are more polite to your customers.

minikin

171170 wrote: »

All very true, however, the payment is there for a purpose and that purpose is not to subsidise one self-employed businessmen who, presumably, is in competition with other, unsubsidised, self-employed businessmen.

That said, I fail to understand the referral to Job Path which seems insane, unless they reckon that the business has no future.

They let de wimmen go into business too nowadays! Speaks volumes that that is all you see - a businessman. Not a person, not a partner, not a parent, not someone who deserves dignity in their life when things go wrong - just like any other employee in the state.

Maybe back away respectfully from this conversation if you’ve no empathy for a fellow citizen in dire straits.

ArtMonkey

minikin wrote: »

They let de wimmen go into business too nowadays! Speaks volumes that that is all you see - a businessman. Not a person, not a partner, not a parent, not someone who deserves dignity in their life when things go wrong - just like any other employee in the state.

Maybe back away respectfully from this conversation if you’ve no empathy for a fellow citizen in dire straits.

Thank, you, thank you, thank you. AND you made me laugh 😂 Brilliantly put.

171170

ArtMonkey wrote: »

"BusinessMEN?" Oh dear...

Yep, I'm old school. But if you consider yourself, or wish to be described, as a businesswoman, than that's fine by me! Whatever floats your boat.

Returning to the substantive issue, I agree with you that it seems absurd for any self-employed businessthingy trying to run a full-time business to be referred to Jobpath. Utterly insane. That's the kind of nonsense that should be made public as it makes the Department seem stupid and unhelpful.

So go public with it and/or contact your local opposition TD who can highlight the absurdity.

ArtMonkey

ArtMonkey wrote: »

Anyway folks, I wanted to hear from anyone else in similar circumstances, not the usual government shills who haunt these threads. So any non-assumptive, self righteous posts would be appreciated.

I don't think you know what you're doing.


There is no way you can be self employed and sent for job path. You're dealing with the wrong people, or trading on the black market.


If you've already set up your business, on your own, then there's no govt. assistance for you as far as I am aware. However, if you've not yet set it up you can go to your local enterprise office and they can assist you by letting you maintain your jobseekers payment over the course of 2 years (100% payment for the first year, 50% of the payment for the second year, on your own after that).


The only way you can be entitled to anything now, assuming you've set out as self employed already, would be if you closed the business and got a jobseekers payment for a year, to then qualify for the Back To Work Enterprise Allowance (The payment where you get 100% then 50%).




Just to note: it's been years since I've been familiar with this system so the rules may have changed.

SEPT 23 1989

this is a very long overdue payment for business owners who generate hundreds of thousands of euro in taxes for the state over the lifetime of their businesses and fall on such bad times that they have no choice but to turn to the state for help

I hope they make the process as easy as possible

SEPT 23 1989

ArtMonkey wrote: »

What.......??? I'm am a perfectly respectable person... What are you talking about? You are obviously completely out of touch, so why bother replying? There is a payment for the self employed these days. Now I'm being accused of operating on the black market, this people, is why I may be accused of being rude...WTF?

how long are you in business?

minikin

ArtMonkey wrote: »

Thank, you, thank you, thank you. AND you made me laugh �� Brilliantly put.

I’ve learned that a very robust sense of humour is invaluable to deal with hardship in business. The lack of a safety net or even a compassionate ear is tough.

My advice to you - keep moving forward and grab all you can while you can - if you’re not naturally avaricious then learn to become so. The state sees you as an indentured revenue collector rather than a human.

suppet

ArtMonkey wrote: »

This new payment for the self employed is a farce, it's just job seekers. I just had my review for my self employment status, showed them how hard I've been working, it's full-time for me, plenty of sales, and they send me for Job Path!? How am I supposed to run my own business and attend all their ridiculous meetings and get a job at the same time...??? Anyone else have a similar experience? They are treating genuine people like dirt.

What payment are you referring to? The back to work enterprise allowance? Or the new jobseekers benefit for self employed?

ArtMonkey

minikin wrote: »

I’ve learned that a very robust sense of humour is invaluable to deal with hardship in business. The lack of a safety net or even a compassionate ear is tough.

My advice to you - keep moving forward and grab all you can while you can - if you’re not naturally avaricious then learn to become so. The state sees you as an indentured revenue collector rather than a human.

All very true. This IS what I'm doing with my life, with or without their support, I just find it laughable that Varadkar announces this new safety net payment for the self-employed and all it is, is the usual job path rubbish rather than actual support. It's a farce like all his schemes. They're playing a game with the live register figures.

duffman13

ArtMonkey wrote: »

New job seekers for self employed. What a laugh. It's just job seekers, what's the point if they just refer you to job path if your business doesn't instantly succeed in financial terms, what business does? It's either there to help people or it's not, and it clearly isn't.

The new scheme is to help in the event you are no longer able to operate viably. It's basically Job Seekers Benefit, if you applied for that and are still operating then this payment isn't for you. It might be a laugh to you but it's a much needed fall back for the large number of businesses that fail each year.

SEPT 23 1989

ArtMonkey wrote: »

New job seekers for self employed. What a laugh. It's just job seekers, what's the point if they just refer you to job path if your business doesn't instantly succeed in financial terms, what business does? It's either there to help people or it's not, and it clearly isn't.

its for business owners whose businesses go bang

crossman47

ArtMonkey wrote: »

This new payment for the self employed is a farce, it's just job seekers. I just had my review for my self employment status, showed them how hard I've been working, it's full-time for me, plenty of sales, and they send me for Job Path!? How am I supposed to run my own business and attend all their ridiculous meetings and get a job at the same time...??? Anyone else have a similar experience? They are treating genuine people like dirt.

I'm not being unsympathetic but I don't understand this. If you are working full time as you say then you can't be eligible for job seekers for the self employed.

The primary conditions for getting Jobseeker’s Allowance is that you must be unemployed. However, you do not have to be totally unemployed – you must be unemployed for at least 4 days out of 7 consecutive days. You must also be available for and actively seeking work.

You can work and get Jobseeker’s Allowance if:

Your days at work are reduced
You are laid off work temporarily
You are self-employed but your level of business and income has reduced
You can only get part-time or casual work.
You must meet all the other conditions for Jobseeker’s Allowance. For example, you must pass a means test and you must also continue to look for full-time work.

Markcheese

ArtMonkey wrote: »

New job seekers for self employed. What a laugh. It's just job seekers, what's the point if they just refer you to job path if your business doesn't instantly succeed in financial terms, what business does? It's either there to help people or it's not, and it clearly isn't.

But you can't get the new job seekers benefit, if you're not seeking a job...
It wasn't designed as "getting a business started benefit", there are other schemes along that line (but most were designed for people coming off long term unemployed..)

LillySV

ArtMonkey wrote: »

Excuse me, but the tenor of your first response was extremely rude and judgemental. Don't dish it out if you can't take it. You haven't the first clue about my circumstances. And I'm usually an extremely polite person, but I will stand up for myself when I need to.

Where’s all the entitlement from... taxpayers paying way too much tax to fund a guy who doesn’t think he should have to meet the same requirements as them .... if your business is not good enough to support anyone. Why should me paye be expected to prop you up

suppet

ArtMonkey wrote: »

New job seekers for self employed. What a laugh. It's just job seekers, what's the point if they just refer you to job path if your business doesn't instantly succeed in financial terms, what business does? It's either there to help people or it's not, and it clearly isn't.

You're getting very defensive considering I was just trying to figure out what payment you mean so I could offer help, so please chill your beans.

I am self employed, I was on the back to work enterprise allowance for two years. I have experience in this.

The new jobseekers for the self employed has only just come through this month I think(could be very wrong), but this means that when you have no business or sales(just like when you have no job) you have assistance, and that is why I'd say you are being send for a jobs path or whatever it's called, because they are seeing it as you not having a job.

You may be just asking for the wrong thing.

There used to be another assistance similar to the back to work allowance which gave people a 9 month assistance if you didn't qualify for the two year one.

What kind of assistance are you looking for and I might be able to guide you in the right direction.

Local Enterprise offices have grants too.

crossman47

ArtMonkey wrote: »

I am working for myself full time to get my business off the ground!!! They came up with this payment, not me!

All I'm saying is that, if you're working full time, you are not entitled to anything. You can't be a job seeker if you're working full time.

ArtMonkey

ArtMonkey wrote: »

New job seekers for self employed. What a laugh. It's just job seekers, what's the point if they just refer you to job path if your business doesn't instantly succeed in financial terms, what business does? It's either there to help people or it's not, and it clearly isn't.

There are plenty of people under the illusion they have a business when all they have is a partial income resulting from ludicrous hours, massive stress and considerable financial risk. If one has a viable business and the means to make it a success, small business financing via a bank, development grants/funding, private investment and so on are the options.

For every Tom, Dick and Harriet thinks they have what it takes to be self employed, 9 out of 10 are deluded reality escapists, with no more entrepreneurial competence than every other failed businessperson.

If you need state help in the form of an income while you get a ‘business’ of self-employment off the ground, you need to wind down and go get a job. That’s why you’re being pushed towards schemes to incentivise you to find employment and start paying taxes.

If you had a clear business plan and it was considered viable and likely to succeed, you’d not be going for state benefits. Plain and simple. Massive difference between an established sole trader experiencing a slump or disturbance in their demand/work and someone who thinks the state should support them while they play about trying to start a ‘business’.

Get back to employment and then secure the financial inputs you need to establish a private enterprise as a self sufficient and eminently viable entity. Entitlement won’t take you through the hurdles everyone faces in starting a business, but which you think shouldn’t be in your way.

Good look in the job hunt.

crossman47

ArtMonkey wrote: »

Tell that to the Department! I didn't invent the nonsensical payment! They know all my circumstances. This is my whole point, like everything this government comes up with it makes no sense, and doesn't function! People are being incredulous towards me as though I came up with this payment!

But it does function as intended. it is there to help self employed people who go out of business or are working part time but actively looking for other work.

In your case, either the department did not get the full details from you or they made a mistake in sanctioning any payment.

drunkmonkey

2yrs in and there sending you on job path kinda says it all. The business plan hasn't worked. That's not to say it wouldn't work on a part time basis until you have it built up enough to leave work.
If your forecast doesn't have you earning more than the industrial wage with a bit extra in year 3 throw your hat at it and get a job.

OP,

I think you've got the wrong end of the stick and being quite aggressive when there's people here trying to provide you with information - albeit information you may not want to hear. I don't think the job's seekers benefit you've applied for, and what SW seem to have granted you is what you think it is.

You may think SW know that you are currently working full time, and may have provided such information, but it sees like that has been lost in translation. The quick way to clear that up is to call them and say you cannot attend jobspath because you are actively self employed. That will bring it to a head very quickly.

Be warned if they ask how long you've been actively self employed (and not looking for employment) you may need to repay some/all of the Jobseekers benefit you've received thus far.

Wanderer78

Op, go down the medical route, if that's a possibility for you, i.e. illness benefit, disability allowance etc. If you're successfully granted such a payment, work on trying to make your business work, or an alternative employment source, when you think you maybe able to support yourself, sign off your payment. Best of luck

ArtMonkey

ArtMonkey wrote: »

about the shocking lack of real jobs in this country.

Everyone in my industry (and I doubt we're alone) cannot get anywhere near enough suitable staff from semi-skilled to experienced.

But, I imagine some parts of the country still have unemployment issues, but there's plenty of real jobs if people upskill or move.

CrabRevolution

ArtMonkey wrote: »

They could at least have the courtesy to explain that, if it is the case. And what business realistically takes off in two years to a roaring success? Very few of them. I can see the "I'm alright Jack" crowd is out in force. I asked to hear from other people in similar circumstances, not the usual self-righteous cronies who love to kick people who are down.

I think the reason you're not getting any responses from similar cases is because nobody here can even understand why you're getting JSA while working full time, never mind having heard of anyone in that situation.

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Op, go down the medical route, if that's a possibility for you, i.e. illness benefit, disability allowance etc. If you're successfully granted such a payment, work on trying to make your business work, or an alternative employment source, when you think you maybe able to support yourself, sign off your payment. Best of luck

Are we allowed to encourage benefit fraud on this website now?

Wanderer78

Deleted User wrote:

Are we allowed to encourage benefit fraud on this website now?

Its important to realise, our welfare system is actually used to harass people that unfortunately find themselves in that situation, it has little or no interest in addressing these people's actual needs, and can in fact exasperate some people's issues. if you unfortunately suffer with complex psychological issues, our welfare system is more than likely gonna make them worse

OP, What you are referring to is Jobseekers Allowance,

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/unemployed_people/self_employed_and_unemployment.html

To qualify for this it would imply that it was once a successful business that has declined.

Is it time limited like certain other SW payments - this may explain why you're now being streamed towards Jobspath.

Tiddlypeeps

They can't win. People complain for years (and rightly so) that there is no safety net for the self employed if the business fails. They fix this and they still get **** over it because it's not a self employment subsidy which it never claimed to be

Tiddlypeeps

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

because it's not a self employment subsidy which it never claimed to be

*cough* it might be. See my post above.

SEPT 23 1989

OSI wrote: »

I hope your business is in demolition OP.

A Charm School maybe

El_Duderino 09

ArtMonkey wrote: »

Anyway, thanks for the kicks while I'm down everyone! I'm an honest decent (I shouldn't even have to say that, but since I've been accused of being on the black market, lying and being a failure it has to be stated) person just trying to earn my living and paying my taxes like everyone else, looking to make sense of a usual government f-up, and I'm being treated as though I don't make sense. Go ask Leo, because I'm as clueless as all of you about this shambolic scheme. No wonder this country is a mess, the first thing we do is turn on the vulnerable.

Well, the first thing the government do is give people with a failing business, money to tide them over until they wind up the business and find a job. That’s not a bad deal, all things considered. Seems pretty sensible to me.

ArtMonkey

OSI wrote: »

I hope your business is in demolition OP.

Lol

drunkmonkey

Hold on second Monkey considering the week that's in it have you run into a problem with premilanary tax, you don't have to pay it, the fines are tiny. Does that solve your headache.

emo72

So the OP applied to welfare, and they put her on an allowance/payment. Which is good because they are trying to pay their own way and that's laudable. Better to give to them than someone who would never want to work.

Then they put them on jobsbridge? Well that's just silly, that's not really joined up thinking.

Wanderer78

ArtMonkey wrote:

EXACTLY. I have more than enough grounds to apply for disability, physically and mentally, but was hoping to maintain a little dignity and support myself in the only way I can, I outlined all my limitations before, they DO NOT CARE. They just refer you for things you're not capable of so they can say they ticked their boxes. They never even suggested disability because THEY DO NOT CARE. That is what the "I'm alright Jacks" don't realise. Though to be honest I think half of them are government shills.

Apply for da and ib, but be aware reviews may take months, and you may not be successful. You maybe able to apply for alternative payments such as supplementary welfare.

Joe Schmo

ArtMonkey wrote: »

Anyway, thanks for the kicks while I'm down everyone! I'm an honest decent (I shouldn't even have to say that, but since I've been accused of being on the black market, lying and being a failure it has to be stated) person just trying to earn my living and paying my taxes like everyone else, looking to make sense of a usual government f-up, and I'm being treated as though I don't make sense. Go ask Leo, because I'm as clueless as all of you about this shambolic scheme. No wonder this country is a mess, the first thing we do is turn on the vulnerable.

Whatever happens I wish you all the best in your business endeavours. it sounds like you are in a difficult position so hopefully everything works to your favour in future.

Markcheese

ArtMonkey wrote: »

Well why did they award it to me knowing my full circumstances, and refer to it as job seekers for the self employed? This is what I'm talking about, it makes no sense!

Okay, your origonal post makes a bit more sense now,

ArtMonkey

ArtMonkey wrote: »

"ludicrous hours, massive stress and considerable financial risk" This is literally how every business starts. And they are not trying to incentivise me, they know my very particular set of circumstances, they are not there to help people, they are processing everyone through the same impersonal mill toward unsuited, underpayed employment to make the live register look better. Most of these supposed jobs they come up with are being fabricated by the state at more expense to the tax payer ultimately, than if they would be just honest about the shocking lack of real jobs in this country.

No, that is how some people try to make an unviable business work.

I'm not looking to get into the specifics of your situation as most (including the department) don't particularly care when it comes down to it, but it's simply the fact that a minority of people who try working for themselves will end up being able to adequately support themselves financially and provide a net positive contribution to the social welfare system.

I think you're probably under considerable stress as a consequence of a variety of factors, but none of us are responsible for that, ultimately. If there are supports available for which you qualify, by all means, use them. But don't conflate Leo Varadker and the goverment, the 'mess' of a country as you see it and all those other things with your own ability to get a business up and running without taxpayer investment in the form of benefits.

Plenty of us have worked for ourselves, struggled to make ends meet if at all, then finally had to swallow our pride/arrogance/egos/entitlement/chip-on-the-shoulder and get back to gainful employment. If you think you have what it takes to get up and work for yourself in a business that doesn't depend on benefits so you can afford to live and get on with things, there's likely no good reason at all why you can't go and work for someone else.

Education, training, experience will have an impact on either path of course, so just like you may not be qualified or experienced enough for some types of jobs, you also may not be adequately equipped to make self employment balance your own books in the short, medium or long term.

That's just a harsh (for most) reality and the sooner you face up to that, whether or not you get a payment/benefit to help you out now, you can't escape that reality. You'll need to stand on your own two feet if you want to work for yourself, and quickly, or patience and support will become exhausted by state agencies and mechanisms along with others around you.

Ask for help, but critically appraise the situation you're actively deciding to remain in and make the right decision, pride be damned.