Unpaid Internships Illegal in 3rd Level Education?

Danleo171

Hello,
As part of my course I must carry out a couple weeks long work placement which must be completed to pass the course.

I recently read that unpaid/underpaid work of any kind is illegal in most circumstances as stated on the WRC's website (quoted below)

However for myself and most others in my course our course coordinator has organised our work placement themselves specifically stating that these are unpaid work placements to which most of our placement companies agreed to.

We are all currently on work placement and I am still unsure if it is legal to receive no payment and if it was legal for the college and course coordinator to organize these unpaid placements and what I could do about it.

If anyone has any input or knowledge on this subject I would love to hear it.
Thanks.


"The law defines a contract of employment as any contract whereby an individual agrees with another person, to do or to perform personally, any work or service for that person or a third person.

Apart from the employment of close family relatives and the engagement of registered industrial apprentices, there is no exemption in law from the obligation to pay the national minimum hourly rate of pay. Therefore, national minimum wage rates apply to work experience placements, work trials, internships and any other employment practice involving unpaid work or working for room and board, regardless of the duration of the engagement."

derryleigh1

I can't speak for the law but my son just completed a 6 month placement and didn't get paid, not even a travel or sub payment. Students were told that this particular placement wouldn't be paid and all students pulled out of interviews, except my son. The experience he got is priceless and he knows it, but no he didn't get a cent.

Sorry can't help you but just wanted to let you know that it does happen.

WhiteMemento9

derryleigh1 wrote: »

I can't speak for the law but my son just completed a 6 month placement and didn't get paid, not even a travel or sub payment. Students were told that this particular placement wouldn't be paid and all students pulled out of interviews, except my son. The experience he got is priceless and he knows it, but no he didn't get a cent.

Sorry can't help you but just wanted to let you know that it does happen.

Curious, what sector was the placement in?

AlphabetCards

WhiteMemento9 wrote: »

Curious, what sector was the placement in?

I am keen to know too. In the UK the concept of a paid placement is standard, this should be the case in Ireland.

the14thwarrior

every nurse, radiographer, OT, physio, social worker, teacher, dietician, speech and language therapist, and many more do about a year worth of placements with no pay or any costs whatsoever.

most are divided up into 4, 6 or 8 week placements. by year 4 they are expected to operate as a full time worker.

the country would not support if we had to pay them all..........

mycro2013

the14thwarrior wrote: »

every nurse, radiographer, OT, physio, social worker, teacher, dietician, speech and language therapist, and many more do about a year worth of placements with no pay or any costs whatsoever.

most are divided up into 4, 6 or 8 week placements. by year 4 they are expected to operate as a full time worker.

the country would not support if we had to pay them all..........

I thought it was only the teachers who receive no pay with the rest of healthcare workers receiving pay at a reduce rate on a sliding scale.

zapper55

Its not work, it's a work placement. The common understanding is that a placement is provide for the person doing it to learn/gain experience.

You are being quite naive in your question. Considering the time it will take to train you up and the trust the company will place in you showing their inner workings, they are doing the college/ you a favour. Never mind that they are taking a gamble on an unknown entity as I wouldnt imagine you'd be going into the company with a wealth of experience in the area.

And you are wondering if it's illegal? No, no it's not.

the14thwarrior

mycro2013 wrote: »

I thought it was only the teachers who receive no pay with the rest of healthcare workers receiving pay at a reduce rate on a sliding scale.

gosh no, afraid not. there are students that have to travel from galway, limerick etc. up to dublin to get placements, not enough hospitals etc. in the country. all at their own expense.

I did almost 3 months of unpaid full time work placement for each year of my degree. While also working my real job part time and doing loads of college work. Used to fall asleep standing up. So no not illegal, reasonably standard and if you only have a couple weeks to do count yourself lucky. Pretty irritating to work 60 hours a week and only take home a few quid from the minimum wage part time job!

listermint

We pay our interns. Absolute balls not to pay minimum wage. It's still labour regardless of the training aspect.

GalwayGrrrrrl

You are learning rather than working. Your placement is only for a couple of weeks. Be grateful for the work experience that will improve your employability.

WhiteMemento9

zapper55 wrote: »

Its not work, it's a work placement. The common understanding is that a placement is provide for the person doing it to learn/gain experience.

You are being quite naive in your question. Considering the time it will take to train you up and the trust the company will place in you showing their inner workings, they are doing the college/ you a favour. Never mind that they are taking a gamble on an unknown entity as I wouldnt imagine you'd be going into the company with a wealth of experience in the area.

And you are wondering if it's illegal? No, no it's not.

This isn't true. The Workplace Relations Commission issued guidance on this recently.

Apart from the employment of close family relatives and the engagement of registered industrial apprentices, there is no exemption in law from the obligation to pay the national minimum hourly rate of pay. Therefore, national minimum wage rates apply to work experience placements, work trials, internships and any other employment practice involving unpaid work or working for room and board, regardless of the duration of the engagement.

https://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/news-media/workplace_relations_notices/unpaid_work.html

mistersifter

listermint wrote: »

We pay our interns. Absolute balls not to pay minimum wage. It's still labour regardless of the training aspect.

Agreed.

The idea that you should be grateful to work for free is bollocks. These sorts of schemes are used by chancers who are only delighted to have some young lad around to do jobs nobody else wants to do.

You're learning and working. No intern expects high wages. It's a mutually beneficial relationship. Companies do not just take interns in out of the goodness of their hearts. A small wage is reasonable and the company should be glad of the cheap labour in the same way the student should be glad to get some experience.

As employers, Irish universities are among the worst culprits for this sort of ****. They often take advantage of postgraduate students by loading teaching work on them and paying f*ck all if anything. So it doesnt surprise me that they're happy for their students to have to pay to intern somewhere.

derryleigh1

WhiteMemento9 wrote: »

Curious, what sector was the placement in?

AlphabetCards wrote: »

I am keen to know too. In the UK the concept of a paid placement is standard, this should be the case in Ireland.

He's studying biotechnology, Had to do 6 months placement in 3rd.

It will be renamed job shadowing if they are supernumerary to the existing employees they should not be paid if they are actually doing work that could be done by a paid employee and are benefiting the company they should be paid.

A lot of it comes down to how the placement is structured.

In some sectors its already difficult to get placements and saying the student has to be paid would make it even more difficult to get placements.

I Corps

I thought that if the placement is for three months then you won't get paid? When I was an undergrad, some students were asked to stay on for another three months and from then on they were paid. It depends with colleges maybe?

WhiteMemento9

derryleigh1 wrote: »

He's studying biotechnology, Had to do 6 months placement in 3rd.

DCU? It doesn't seem like the sort of degree that taking an unpaid work placement would be warranted. I would have thought they would have had plenty of options. I am surprised that the college would actually let a company offering this kind of deal apply to take students. I know you say the experience was very good but I am sure he also contributed, someone in the third year of a degree in a highly related area isn't going to be completely clueless.

I know in the current climate, some of these placements for students in 3rd year are highly sought after and very well paid.

blanch152

WhiteMemento9 wrote: »

This isn't true. The Workplace Relations Commission issued guidance on this recently.



https://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/news-media/workplace_relations_notices/unpaid_work.html

For the Workplace Relations Commission guidance to be valid, there must be a contract of employment.

In the case of a student in third-level on placement, there isn’t a contract of employment. No pay due.

WhiteMemento9

blanch152 wrote: »

For the Workplace Relations Commission guidance to be valid, there must be a contract of employment.

In the case of a student in third-level on placement, there isn’t a contract of employment. No pay due.

Where do you get this idea? All colleges are generally quite formal about this kind of thing and contracts are mandatory in some form or another.

the_syco

mariaalice wrote: »

In some sectors its already difficult to get placements and saying the student has to be paid would make it even more difficult to get placements.

This.

If they have to pay you, the placements will try up. They are not getting qualified personal in. Skilled, maybe, but not qualified. So if the student fcuks up and leaves the company open to being sued/fined, I wonder would the companies insurance cover it?

WhiteMemento9 wrote: »

I know in the current climate, some of these placements for students in 3rd year are highly sought after and very well paid.

If you can get a paid placement that will meet the requirements that the college has, they'll be fine with it. In the long run, it gives the college another workplace to push students into.

I know when I did a 6 month work in the middle of my college cert, I had two options; get it myself, or the college will provide it. I got one myself, and I was paid. But I knew of one or two people who got a college supplied job, and these were not paid. One worked in the college itself, and one worked for some yahoo in the nearby (small) town.

=-=

If you demand that the college gets you a paying internship, I'd say the college will allow you to find a paying internship yourself. And then tell you that if you don't get one that meets the courses requirements, you won't pass the requirements of that year.

WhiteMemento9

the_syco wrote: »

This.

If they have to pay you, the placements will try up. They are not getting qualified personal in. Skilled, maybe, but not qualified. So if the student fcuks up and leaves the company open to being sued/fined, I wonder would the companies insurance cover it?

This is a complete strawman.

the_syco wrote: »

If you can get a paid placement that will meet the requirements that the college has, they'll be fine with it. In the long run, it gives the college another workplace to push students into.

I am talking about college supplied ones. The competition to take students in many of these is now quite fierce. The main reason driving this is because not only do they get someone quite skilled at below market value but they are are also hoping that it is a gateway for the student to continue working for them when they finish the degree. The tables have turned and it isn't about getting a pipeline of companies to take students but setting up pipelines to hopefully get students to take work with them.

I don't know why people are drawing from personal experience in this area when it isn't really relevant given that it is probably many years ago compared to now in which we have a very robust job market with a talent shortage in many areas that's a completely different animal to years past.

CrabRevolution

If it's illegal someone had better tell the HSE, as they've hundreds of students at any given time working for free for months (I was one of them once). I'm sure even if it was made illegal it'd be reclassified as "volunteering" in the morning.

In my college if you didn't have work found for you (paid or unpaid) you were given as a helping hand for 6 months to a PhD student or researcher running a project to ensure you did something for the placement duration. I would imagine any savvy employer looking at a fresh graduate's CV would cop that they didn't get any work experience in an actual company.

Nigel Fairservice

I got paid for my work placement at university but there were people in my class that were not paid. There's no obligation to pay third level students on placement.