Certificate of Compliance - apartment

cameraman21

Hello everyone

I am in the process of purchasing an apartment from a Receiver.
The previous owner defaulted on the mortgage (apartment was finished and occupied, the block has an active Management Company etc.)

The Receiver is not providing the cert of compliance so I will need to find an architect/engineer to do up a new one.

Does anyone know any architects and engineers that could do that for me?
Is it going to be hard to find one?

Thanks
Simon

Gumbo

cameraman21 wrote: »

Hello everyone

I am in the process of purchasing an apartment from a Receiver.
The previous owner defaulted on the mortgage (apartment was finished and occupied, the block has an active Management Company etc.)

The Receiver is not providing the cert of compliance so I will need to find an architect/engineer to do up a new one.

Does anyone know any architects and engineers that could do that for me?
Is it going to be hard to find one?

Thanks
Simon

Compliance with what?
The original build will have its own compliance cert from the original designer.
The receiver may not have access to this.

cameraman21

kceire wrote: »

Compliance with what?
The original build will have its own compliance cert from the original designer.
The receiver may not have access to this.

Cert of compliance with planning permission and building regulations.

Gumbo

cameraman21 wrote: »

Cert of compliance with planning permission and building regulations.

You can’t get that now for an already constructed apartment block.

I feel there are some crossed wires between you and what your solicitor wants.

Gumbo

Where is the building?
Maybe try find the original architects and offer to pay them for a copy of the original Certs of Compliance.

Was it in Dublin city?
When was it built?

selfbuild17

kceire wrote: »

You can’t get that now for an already constructed apartment block.

I feel there are some crossed wires between you and what your solicitor wants.

Why not? It’s not uncommon for engineers/architects to issue qualified opinions of compliance based on visual survey only to allow a house purchase proceed where there is no original certification available

Gumbo

selfbuild17 wrote: »

Why not? It’s not uncommon for engineers/architects to issue qualified opinions of compliance based on visual survey only to allow a house purchase proceed where there is no original certification available

Big difference is me issuing an opinion on compliance for a house than for an apartment block. I’d have to put my name on the common areas, escape stairs, basements, mechanical ventilation, smoke ventilation and to even associate your name with a Fire Safety Certificate that you had no involvement with in the design, supervision, inspection or original certification would be professional suicide in my opinion.

cameraman21

selfbuild17 wrote: »

Why not? It’s not uncommon for engineers/architects to issue qualified opinions of compliance based on visual survey only to allow a house purchase proceed where there is no original certification available

Yes, that is waht I would need. Does anyone have any recommendations?

cameraman21

kceire wrote: »

Where is the building?
Maybe try find the original architects and offer to pay them for a copy of the original Certs of Compliance.

Was it in Dublin city?
When was it built?

Its in Bettystown, Co Meath. Apartment block was built in 2008.

Gumbo

cameraman21 wrote: »

Yes, that is waht I would need. Does anyone have any recommendations?

I can’t help you unfortunately. Nobody in the business I know offer this service for the reason I posted above.

No choice but to call around tomorrow morning and see if anyone will bite.

cameraman21

kceire wrote: »

Big difference is me issuing an opinion on compliance for a house than for an apartment block. I’d have to put my name on the common areas, escape stairs, basements, mechanical ventilation, smoke ventilation and to even associate your name with a Fire Safety Certificate that you had no involvement with in the design, supervision, inspection or original certification would be professional suicide in my opinion.

My understanding is I only need cert of compliance for the apartment, not the entire block. Am I wrong?

Gumbo

cameraman21 wrote: »

My understanding is I only need cert of compliance for the apartment, not the entire block. Am I wrong?

I would argue that you are wrong, as you can’t certify the apartment in compliance unless the block is compliant.

I hope I’m wrong, for your sake, but I’ve never heard of this been done. Maybe another poster in the industry can counteract what I’ve posted.

The block has to comply with access (part m), fire safety (part b). Then there the whole host of planning compliance.

I would like to see what the wording of your solicitors request is like. The management company may have a copy of the compliance certs from the original designer.

sydthebeat

kceire wrote: »

I would argue that you are wrong, as you can’t certify the apartment in compliance unless the block is compliant.

I hope I’m wrong, for your sake, but I’ve never heard of this been done. Maybe another poster in the industry can counteract what I’ve posted.

The block has to comply with access (part m), fire safety (part b). Then there the whole host of planning compliance.

I would like to see what the wording of your solicitors request is like. The management company may have a copy of the compliance certs from the original designer.

Id imagine any "cert" on this property would be watered down so much with qualifications it wouldnt be worth the paper its written on.... but would just end up being enough for a box to be ticked by some legal secretary in some solicitors office.

you'd spend more time listing the stuff thats not covered, than the stuff that is.

"visual non instructive survey of apartment only"
"cert does not cover access corridors, common areas, etc etc " (basically anything outside of the apartment walls)

in the absence of an overriding cert for the whole property, thats the most anyone could ever be expected to say.

Gumbo

sydthebeat wrote: »

Id imagine any "cert" on this property would be watered down so much with qualifications it wouldnt be worth the paper its written on.... but would just end up being enough for a box to be ticked by some legal secretary in some solicitors office.

you'd spend more time listing the stuff thats not covered, than the stuff that is.

"visual non instructive survey of apartment only"
"cert does not cover access corridors, common areas, etc etc " (basically anything outside of the apartment walls)

in the absence of an overriding cert for the whole property, thats the most anyone could ever be expected to say.

To do so, would you have to trawl the original planning to make sure all conditions are met, no changes made etc
Would you check common areas to confirm that there is indeed access in compliance with TGDM etc

It’s a lot of work and uncertainty to put your name and PI on?

sydthebeat

kceire wrote: »

To do so, would you have to trawl the original planning to make sure all conditions are met, no changes made etc
Would you check common areas to confirm that there is indeed access in compliance with TGDM etc

It’s a lot of work and uncertainty to put your name and PI on?

Personally.....

yes id check the parent permission (and any subsequent permission) for layout of the apartment only.
id contact the fire officer for a copy of the FSC drawings on the particular property, and if forthcoming, if visually check against whats installed. if non available id refer to that in the cert.

i would not mention anything outside of the four walls of the apartment and make it very clear in the cert that the certification pertains to the apartment only, and does not confer compliance to anything external to the inner layout of the apartment.

in regards to planning conditions, the only one id refer to would be the "in accordance with plans and particulars submitted" condition.... i would make it clear that the cert does not cover ANY other planning condition, unless specifically pertaining to that particular apartment.

if thats not good enough for a solicitor then id happily let the job onto someone else.
as you say, i wouldnt put the offices PI at risk for such a small job.. id happily pass on it.
so essentially the cert would be worthless ... but may be enough for a sale to go through.

as an aside ive seen certs which refer to every single condition of the permission not being complied with.. and the sale STILL going through on its basis.

cameraman21

sydthebeat wrote: »

Personally.....

yes id check the parent permission (and any subsequent permission) for layout of the apartment only.
id contact the fire officer for a copy of the FSC drawings on the particular property, and if forthcoming, if visually check against whats installed. if non available id refer to that in the cert.

i would not mention anything outside of the four walls of the apartment and make it very clear in the cert that the certification pertains to the apartment only, and does not confer compliance to anything external to the inner layout of the apartment.

in regards to planning conditions, the only one id refer to would be the "in accordance with plans and particulars submitted" condition.... i would make it clear that the cert does not cover ANY other planning condition, unless specifically pertaining to that particular apartment.

if thats not good enough for a solicitor then id happily let the job onto someone else.
as you say, i wouldnt put the offices PI at risk for such a small job.. id happily pass on it.
so essentially the cert would be worthless ... but may be enough for a sale to go through.

as an aside ive seen certs which refer to every single condition of the permission not being complied with.. and the sale STILL going through on its basis.

Thanks for your input Syd. Could you PM me your contact details so that my solicitor can talk to you directly to see if this can be arranged? Cheers.

Ronney

I'd start with a search here

https://myplan.ie/

Find the original planning application.

Find the Name of the Architect - Should be all over the associated documents on the planning.

Contact them direct.

Essentially it looks like you are looking for a Compliance with planning. i.e We plan to build 30 apts 3 stories high at said location to make sure they didnt sneak on an extra story and few apts!



I'd also get on to the management company as the "should" have Oand M Manuals with all the info/contacts

cameraman21

Thanks a lot for all the replies. I was able to find the original architect and get the cert off them!

Cheers