Emergency generator for home

looksee

We have just discovered the joys of having no power and consequently no water as we rely on a well and also have a pumped system on the septic tank (which does not appear in this short term to have created any problems).

It does seem though that a generator might be a good idea if only to keep the pumps and some lighting going. I don't know the first thing about them and will rely on advice of the electrician, but in the meanwhile does anyone have any views on which generator might be most suitable, what minimum output I would need and any other useful info? I have seen a gas one available, is that any better than petrol?

2011

The first thing to do is look at the size and nature of your loads that you want to supply from the generator. For example: Total lighting load 0.4 kW, pump 0.5 kW, gas boiler 0.3 kW etc... Next look at your budget. It is always best to have a generator that can supply considerably more than the load. This will allow the generator to supply a more constant voltage rather than one that dips and surges as the load changes. Also select a good well known make (like Honda) not some cheap and nasty make that you can't get parts for.

looksee

Thank you, good points. I'd be happy enough to have one that would keep the well and septic tank pumps going and a few lights. I have a stove and a gas hob but without water its hopeless.

How do they work - how do you get the power to specific things? Presumably you don't connect it into the main supply into the house? I am definitely proposing to get a decent quality one, but do you have to run them at intervals? Would it matter if there was no demand for it for 12 months or so? I am pessimistically of the view that power supplies will get dodgy again at some time in the nearish future.

CJhaughey

For those small loads I would think something like a honda eu20i would be the kind of size you would need, best to try and get a one that runs on propane as then you have no issues with petrol going stale when stored. Propane can be stored next to the genset and just started when needed.
If you don’t need an inverter genset then an Auto voltage regulator is nearly as good and indeed better in some cases.
The cheapest ones you will buy are the capacitor regulator type which are not suitable for running sensitive electronics but will run pumps etc no problem.
If you decide to go for a gas conversion buy one that was done from new not an old one that has been converted over.

Irish Steve

To answer the question that's been ignored, the simplest solution is to get a manual changeover switch fitted by a REC, the caveat being that if you go that route, anything in the house can be active when the generator is running, so care is needed to avoid overloading, things like kettles and (especially) electric showers take a big load, and may overload the generator.

In that scenario, if the power fails, the generator needs to be started and allowed to stabilise, then operate the changover. That puts the power back on. There is no indication that the ESB supply has returned, so you will need to check to see when you can switch back. The best way to switch back is to stop the generator, then operate the changeover to go back to ESB supply

It is possible, but considerably more expensive, to put in automatic changover contactors, and to also have the generator automatically start and shut down if the ESB drops out, but that level of capability tends to be used on larger generators that have electric starting, and for loads that are more critical.

looksee

That's very helpful, thanks. Yes, for the reason you give, a manual changeover would be better as it gives the chance to shut down unnecessary equipment.

2011

Good post Steve, I will only comment on this:

Irish Steve wrote: »

There is no indication that the ESB supply has returned, so you will need to check to see when you can switch back.

I install a neon indicator lamp permanently connected across the ESB supply for exactly that reason. Once the ESB power is on it illuminates.

Irish Steve

2011 wrote: »

Good post Steve, I will only comment on this:

I install a neon indicator lamp permanently connected across the ESB supply for exactly that reason. Once the ESB power is on it illuminates.

Valid point, my system here went in a long time ago, and is fully automatic with other complications, there was an issue at the time that a neon across the supply wasn't protected as such, other than by the ESB main fuse, and at the time it was ESB that inspected generator systems, long before RECI etc, and the ESB man didn't want it. Wasn't an issue for my system, so I didn't follow up on it.

2011

Irish Steve wrote: »

Valid point, my system here went in a long time ago, and is fully automatic with other complications, there was an issue at the time that a neon across the supply wasn't protected as such, other than by the ESB main fuse, and at the time it was ESB that inspected generator systems, long before RECI etc, and the ESB man didn't want it. Wasn't an issue for my system, so I didn't follow up on it.

It is none of the ESB’s business as it is installed on the customer side. Whether the ESB “like” it or not is irrelevant. Once the neon indicator is installed in a manner that complies with ET101 it is permitted. Obviously the neon indicator must be protected by a suitable protective device and this is very easy to achieve.

The last tine I did this the neon was wired in 1.5 cable that was protected by a 2A MCB. The MCB was protected by a 40A switch fuse and wired in 16 mm sq. panel flex which was fed from the change over switch. As all of this is on the customer side the ESB did not even need to know.

Twister2

Indicator would be no problem , an mcb would normally suffice as you'd be wiring the changeover after the main protective device

Isn't there an indicator on the meters now although that wouldn't be as useful

2011

Twister2 wrote: »

Isn't there an indicator on the meters now although that wouldn't be as useful

I don’t know but if there is it would not be in a convenient location (meter cabinet).

Twister2

Non-contact tester , piece of string and sellotape:)

funkey_monkey

We have this at home.
First thing, get a transfer switch to change between grid and generator power. That prevents you back feeding into the grid.

Secondly, whatever generator you get consider if you can manage with a pull cord. i.e. can all responsible members of your family pull start it. If not, then consider spending a bit more and getting one with an electrical start.

Then you have the ability to turn on the generator and rotate the transfer switch from a single location or at least within the house. Just make sure the battery is kept charged and there is not a big voltage drop from the remote switch. I recommend you get an installer to do this for you.

The reason for this is that the power usually goes out in rough weather so not having to go out to your garage and pull start a generator.

In terms of maintenance you'll need to run the generator every now and again to keep it in use.

If you get an electric start one consider putting a battery charger onto it so that the battery is topped up when in use.

looksee

Thank you! Kinda helpful in very general terms (ie, I am technically challenged), but I can at least say to the installer er this is what I want to be able to do!

listermint

Hey OP . The very first thing to consider is.


How often do you lose power, what's the history of power loss in the area. We live relatively rural and have lost power once unplanned in three years.


Honestly if you were annoyed that much by that it would be cheaper to stay in the shelbourne and have dinner and breakfast than install a generator.


Incidentally the generator will need general maintenance and regular running to make sure it's working and ready to go for those emergency uses.



Have a real consideration if it's worth it.

looksee

I'm not that readily annoyed by powercuts. However, being without power is one thing, not a big deal, especially as I always have a wood stove and gas cooking facilities. We can easily survive without light and computers. However having no water as well as no power is a bit more challenging. There is a water butt for water to flush the toilets, assuming the septic tank is dealing with not having the water pumped.

I have lived - and raised babies - in rural Africa, with extremely limited facilities, in rural Ireland of the 70s with rolling power cuts, and for entertainment lived in various early medieval houses, hiking half a mile to toilets and hauling all water. Not to mention the usual camping. So if I figure I should enquire about generators its a fair bet I consider it might be a good idea. So thank you for your advice, consider it considered.

blackbox

Thankfully our power supply has been upgraded (rural Wicklow) and we now seldom have a power cut, but we used to get them regularly.

We have three large water tanks in the attic that can keep us going for a few days for everything except drinking (boiled on wood stove for drinking).

Had a few 12V fluorescent lights to run off car batteries. LEDs would be better nowadays.

Never bothered with a generator.

Irish Steve

Strange how these things happen, we had a power cut this evening 19:30 to 20:15, and from the look of it, there were some 30,000 homes out, it looks like they lost the major substation at Finglas, and that covers a very wide area.

no major deal here, at one time, I had to be able to run a serious size computer as a backup for a major client, so the generator is 3 phase 30 Kva, big 5 litre air cooled diesel unit, with automatic start and monitoring, and I kept it as though there's no computer now, we are in a significant flood risk location, and the only thing that keeps the water away if the stream misbehaves is a big 3 phase pump that shifts about 1000 litres a minute, so the generator wasn't removed when the computer went, and now, if we lose power, everything comes back on after about 30 seconds, which does have its advantages. The generator stays live until ESB has been back on line for at least 1 minute, to avoid the problems that seem to happen quite regularly with the "reset the area and see what falls out again" system that is used when trying to get as many users back on again as quickly as possible.

Going back to the indicator neon issue, when we first put the generator in, regardless of who installed the system, it had to be inspected and approved by the local ESB area manager during a site visit, and at that time, there were interlocked changeover contactors that switched as necessary, but the main distribution board for the site was not immediately adjacent, so there was nowhere to get the appropriate protected feed for the incoming ESB neon without a lot of messing about, and as it was automatic changeover, we didn't need an indication, so when the manager objected to having a neon in the panel, it wasn't worth creating an issue over it, my main interest was his signature on the bottom of the relevant piece of paper, which I had before he left. We're talking close on 30 years ago that we were doing this, and at that time, standby generators in "domestic" environments were almost unheard of, so I think both of us were in somewhat uncharted waters at that time, 3 phase supply to residential houses was rare enough.

If I had to go out and get all the hardware now, then it's not justifiable, but as it was all there, and the annual maintenance costs are not significant, it made sense to keep it until such time as the OPW have finished the flood relief scheme that's going through the area, and even then, leaving it in service will probably be worth while, until we know that the flood scheme has worked. A few litres of green heating oil, and remembering to give it a run every so often to make sure it's all OK are not too onerous.

2011

I’m jealous Steve.
That sounds like a beast of a generator!

Twister2

That's pretty cool alright

That was the system back in the day ,ESBN had to approve the Generator setup

2011

Twister2 wrote: »

That's pretty cool alright

That was the system back in the day ,ESBN had to approve the Generator setup

Fair enough, but they can’t ban you from installing an indication lamp on the customer side of the installation in a compliant manner.

Irish Steve

2011 wrote: »

I’m jealous Steve.
That sounds like a beast of a generator!

It is. The original prime mover was even worse, due to time and cost pressures, the first generator was petrol powered, an American V4 unit, ran at 3000 rpm, and drank fuel like it was going out of fashion, but it was the only unit I could get my hands on at short notice and a sensible price to keep the customer happy. It didn't get used a lot, simply because it was a pain to keep things working well, was as noisy as hell, which wasn't good in a residential area, and was very badly governed, which caused problems when used with a computer system that depended on stable voltage and frequency. I kept my eyes open for a suitable replacement, and eventually found one on E-Bay in the UK, went over to see it to make sure it was suitable, and then said yes.

The current diesel prime mover is an ancient Indian (Kirloskar) Deutz clone, 5 litre straight 6 air cooled, and in fairness to it, it works remarkably well for a 50 year old design, and is a LOT quieter than the unit it replaced. I had to do a bit of fiddling to make things like a speed adjustment system, the old mechanical injector pump wouldn't interface to an electronic panel, and it wouldn't start comfortably at 1500 rpm, due to the age of the design, it tended to surge a bit too much when cold, that then upset the electronics, so it shut down again. Found a way to start it at idle (700 rpm), run it for 30 seconds to stabilise it, and then ramp the speed up to 1500 rpm before going on line.

It's been in place about 20 years, I got it very cheap (<2K) out of the UK, spent a couple of weeks checking it all out and sorting out the interface, and at this stage, between testing and live operation, there's about 180 hours gone on it, and a fair bit of that has been live running, there have been times when we've had significant outages, despite our proximity to Dublin and the size of the town, so I've no regrets about having kept it, 4 hours of a power cut does focus the mind a little, especially during the winter months, knowing that we can still run heating and lighting helps a lot.

The fact that it runs everything, and that we don't have to worry about what happens if we flick the kettle on when everything else is running is a bonus, and the facility to run the flood prevention pumps if ESB is off is vital.

The most expensive aspect of maintenance is an oil change, unlike modern engines that don't have a large sump, this thing takes over 21 litres of oil, so it doesn't get changed very often!

The OPW are going to have to move it in a while to make access to the stream for the flood work a bit safer, as it's very close to the work area, and I shall be very happy to let them have that responsibility, I still remember how much trouble we had getting it into the shed beside the garage, OPW's teleporter will have it out and moved in no time, even though it's over a tonne.

funkey_monkey

Have you considered solar panels feeding into a battery pack for outages and seeking into grid rest of time?

It might be prohibitively expensive, I don't know.

listermint

funkey_monkey wrote: »

Have you considered solar panels feeding into a battery pack for outages and seeking into grid rest of time?

It might be prohibitively expensive, I don't know.

Grants now available

Padre_Pio

I would do your homework and see how much it'll cost before spending any money at all and weigh that with the likelihood of losing power in the first place and also how much you NEED power.

We lost power maybe twice in the last decade, for a night at most. Maybe we're lucky though. It's not really a hassle either. Usually just go to bed earlier, make hot water bottles and food on the camp stove, that kinda thing.

If you buy a genny, you have to factor in connection, maintenance, upkeep, trying not to bury it in sh*te in the garage etc etc.

Maybe something like a camp stove would be better. Get your light, heat, hot water etc. Fraction of the price and you'll use it if you ever go camping.

funkey_monkey wrote: »

Have you considered solar panels feeding into a battery pack for outages and seeking into grid rest of time?

It might be prohibitively expensive, I don't know.

Interesting route to go down. I wouldnt buy one only as a backup to mains. Unfortunately most power outages are in winter when weather is rough, so your level of battery charge would probably be low.

Prob cheaper to buy an electric car and find a way to run your house off the car battery

looksee

I thought Ireland didn't do the 'feeding into grid' thing? I don't know, I could be wrong. Yes I looked rather briefly but didn't follow though, really its a young person's game, getting your money back on solar takes too long to be worth it to me.

Irish Steve

looksee wrote: »

I thought Ireland didn't do the 'feeding into grid' thing? I don't know, I could be wrong. Yes I looked rather briefly but didn't follow though, really its a young person's game, getting your money back on solar takes too long to be worth it to me.

And there in a nutshell is the problem that none of the relevant stakeholders are even looking at with serious intent, let alone addressing with any degree of urgency.

The older people that can possibly afford the costs of the upgrades needed for the benefits to be worthwhile are going to be reluctant to spend the sums involved because they won't see the benefit of the spend, and the younger people that could benefit from the spend on energy changes can't afford the massive up front costs that are involved.

For there to be any real meaningful uptake of changes will require a fundamental change of attitude towards the supply, costs, certification and grant aid of alternative energy, right across the board, so that LOCAL manufacturers of appropriate technology get massive tax breaks to enable them to produce their products for a much lower unit cost. The install process probably cant change much, but the certification can be made much simpler and straightforward, and there have to be significant incentives to enable micro generation systems to feed back into the grid if they are producing an excess, with an option to bank that surplus as a fund for use during periods of the year when there is no surplus, and there needs to be a much clearer and simpler method of funding and grant aiding upgrades to older properties that incentivise people to upgrade, rather than the present negative system of just increasing taxes to discourage usage.

30 years ago, I designed our heating and hot water system here to have multiple zones, so that we could get better utilisation of our energy input. Now, that foresight disqualifies me from taking grant aid to upgrade the system to "smart" technology, which is not what the scheme is supposed to do.

In the same vein, the insulation schemes are still not well thought out, one of the biggest energy losers are the thousands of dormer roof style houses that have been built over the last 40 years, as their construction style makes them almost impossible to adequately insulate, particularly for air tightness, which is the only way to prepare to install a heat pump style system, and I could very easily add to the list of other issues that SEAI are not adequately addressing.

And yes, to partially address the original thread subject, a better energy utilisation system for house lighting that provides safety by keeping lights on from battery or alternative sources in the event of power outages should be very easy now with the advent of LED lighting that only needs low voltage supply, but there seems to have been very few initiatives to encourage such changes, in many respects, there's been no new thinking to the way lighting works for close on 50 years, other than the recent introduction of LED luminaires, which are the game changer for this sort of idea.

With the way weather changes are happening, I suspect that there will be increased numbers of outages of power, and possibly for longer periods, partly because of stronger and more regular wind events, and partly because of of other weather related issues like snow, and there is only so much that can be done to improve the resilience of distribution systems, especially in rural areas, and the costs of putting much more of the lower voltage systems underground make that option prohibitive, the initial install costs, and subsequent maintenance costs would be astronomic.

There is also the still unknown issue of what happens if the wind power systems are not running because there is no wind, unless we as a country have access to alternative supplies, if we are too dependent on wind and solar power, unless someone can come up with a new energy storage technology, there will be times when the power available will not meet the demand, and in that situation, some form of load shedding or sharing systems will have to be introduced to avoid cascading crashes of the supply system.

listermint

Erm... Alot of information there Steve.

But you are aware that the approach is towards a broad smart managed system across the board. Combining multiple energy types and having localised energy creation topped up with energy from grid. This being controlled monitored and fed my smart meters .


You haven't just dreamt this up now. Providers are well aware.

And this stuff about old and young we will need all homes to be involved regardless of home owners age. Their house doesn't burn to dust when they leave this earth their home will be smart for the next owner after them.

Rinse and repeat.

It's a concerted effort and the Tax breaks are to incentivise the direction we need to take.

I get the impression you seem to think you've had a Eureka moment?

rn

While the house outlives the person, often the cost is up front and is carried by the person. Hence older people will tend to stick with their current system. They will perceive it unfair to force them to change and they vote so carry huge political influence.

looksee

One of the main points of IrishSteve's post is the administration of grants rather than the smart technology, though obviously that is part of it. Of course houses don't burn down, but for older people the incentive to improve is not there, it is the following young people who will take on the smart tech.

Tax breaks are all very well but in my case I am funding this house from the sale of the previous one, tax breaks are not a lot of use to me as I don't pay that much tax on my pension. While I am comfortable, the idea that all elderly people have loadsa money is just not true. I have no borrowing capability at my age and the kind of investment needed to qualify for grants is just not an option.

I have moved into a 20 year old house that is generally well built and insulated, but I really don't see the possibility of making it retrospectively airtight enough for, say, air to water to work efficiently, or qualify for grants. Then in mid consideration the grants were pulled anyway.

Anyway while an interesting discussion it is way off topic, I have found the comments about generators very helpful, and hopefully will be able to do something about one before we are inflicted with too many power cuts!

Silent Running

We were without power for a week following Ophelia and last week we had a 12 hour power cut during the day. We have regular outages.

I got a key start, petrol, inverter generator online and had a changeover switch fitted. When the power goes, I go to the shed, wheel the genny over to the changeover (like a wheelbarrow), connect the generator to the changeover socket and fire it up. We then have enough power to run the fridge-freezer, internet, heating and cooking.

The genny even provides enough power to charge my EV... bonus.

Irish Steve

listermint wrote: »

Erm... Alot of information there Steve.

But you are aware that the approach is towards a broad smart managed system across the board. Combining multiple energy types and having localised energy creation topped up with energy from grid. This being controlled monitored and fed my smart meters .


You haven't just dreamt this up now. Providers are well aware.

And this stuff about old and young we will need all homes to be involved regardless of home owners age. Their house doesn't burn to dust when they leave this earth their home will be smart for the next owner after them.

Rinse and repeat.

It's a concerted effort and the Tax breaks are to incentivise the direction we need to take.

I get the impression you seem to think you've had a Eureka moment?

Not a eureka moment, far from it, but having spent some time looking at a number of areas here on the boards fora, it's become even clearer that the lack of joined up thinking from the main players is mind numbing. On one hand, they want to move to electric power vehicles, but the infrastructure to support that move at a local level is not there, and won't be for a considerable time period, issues like public charger hogging and availability, among others, are not going to get better without some fundamental changes of attitude and policy, and huge numbers of residential areas are going to be unable to support significant numbers of off peak chargers, the network wasn't built to provide the sort of power needed to do that, and if things like showers are going to move from stored water to instant heating, that's only going to make the problem worse, running a power shower and a vehicle charger at the same time will be more than a lot of installations can support.

For older people (like me, nearly 70), the costs of retrofitting our house are out of reach, dormer bungalows are an energy nightmare because of appallingly bad construction standards and policy over the last 40 years, and it's very much down to "Irish" attitudes, we moved here from the UK in the late 80's, and the difference in standards between the 2, which were supposedly very similar, was frightening, and a lot of the blame for that is down to a complete absence of enforcement of the regulations that were and are in place, so developers cut corners (and more) and were comfortable that even if their shortcomings were found, there would be no sanctions or repercussions.

Then there is the problem that some of the changes needed to make this new direction work are likely to be socially unacceptable, high rise towers come with a multitude of problems that we've seen over the last while, and the result was that tower blocks that were in place have been removed and replaced with lower density housing, because of the social issues, so where does that leave us? Catch 22.

I don't have the answers, and for me, my highest priority is trying to make sure that where ever we are living, we are safe, secure and warm. After that, with the way things are going, we may not have too many options, because there is an unfortunate lack of real carrot to go along with the big stick relating to carbon taxes and the like, and a carrot that cannot be reached because it keeps on moving is no incentive to make change.