Requirement for an earth rod?

GreeBo

So I have a very old house that has no earth rod and and old distribution board and fuses.

I just had my gas boiler replaced and while they have bonded all the pipes they didnt add an earth rod (even though it was mentioned during the quote!)

So, is an earth rod required now?

Cheers.

meercat

GreeBo wrote: »

So I have a very old house that has no earth rod and and old distribution board and fuses.

I just had my gas boiler replaced and while they have bonded all the pipes they didnt add an earth rod (even though it was mentioned during the quote!)

So, is an earth rod required now?

Cheers.

If they replaced your gas boiler,have they protected it with an rcd ?
If a rec has bonded all the pipe work has he done the relevant tests and given you a certificate
Has he issued you a notice of potential hazard if he has had the cover off your distribution board

GreeBo

meercat wrote: »

If they replaced your gas boiler,have they protected it with an rcd ?
If a rec has bonded all the pipe work has he done the relevant tests and given you a certificate
Has he issued you a notice of potential hazard if he has had the cover off your distribution board

1) No, they just wired it using the existing wiring
2) He said he tested it but no certificates
3) No documentation handed over at all

So, other than complaining to the company they came from (though it seems they company pays these contractors, they are not employed by the company) is there anyone I can raise this to, someone who would inspect it from a RECI point of view and take some action?

BTW, is an earth rod required?

meercat

An earth rod would be essential irrespective of whether or not your boiler is replaced

GreeBo

meercat wrote: »

An earth rod would be essential irrespective of whether or not your boiler is replaced

Yeah, but I want to know if the person installing a boiler would be required to fit one if one wasnt already in place?
I'd obviously want one, but does he have to fit one by regulation?

When questioned he told me I didn't need one.

Risteard81

An Earth electrode is mandatory unless you're in the north.

punisher5112

Rgi wouldn't be able to fit the earth rod...
Reci is needed there.


Recommended get the whole lot sorted.

New board, wiring, earth rod and bonding if necessary.

K.Flyer

GreeBo wrote: »

Yeah, but I want to know if the person installing a boiler would be required to fit one if one wasnt already in place?
I'd obviously want one, but does he have to fit one by regulation?

When questioned he told me I didn't need one.

No, the person installing a Gas Boiler has nothing to do with Earth Rods.
A Registered Gas Installer, when installing a new gas boiler, must ensure that there is cross bonding on the pipework at the boiler and an unbroken 10 sq. earth cable on the gas pipe directly to the fuse-board.
Some RGIs will do the cross bonding, but they cannot connect an earth cable to the fuse board.
If either cross bonding or earth cable from the gas pipe to the consumer unit are not present, then the installation does not conform to gas regulations I.S. 813 and a notice must be issued to the occupier for it to be rectified (by an electrician).

GreeBo

K.Flyer wrote: »

No, the person installing a Gas Boiler has nothing to do with Earth Rods.
A Registered Gas Installer, when installing a new gas boiler, must ensure that there is cross bonding on the pipework at the boiler and an unbroken 10 sq. earth cable on the gas pipe directly to the fuse-board.
Some RGIs will do the cross bonding, but they cannot connect an earth cable to the fuse board.
If either cross bonding or earth cable from the gas pipe to the consumer unit are not present, then the installation does not conform to gas regulations I.S. 813 and a notice must be issued to the occupier for it to be rectified (by an electrician).

Sorry I meant the company hired to replace the boiler.
They've sent out both rgi and reci.
The reci connected the bonding to the board but the house has no earth rod. My question is, does the reci have to install one to make it compliant with current regulations?
I was quoted for one and then fobbed off when I asked the reci about it.

GreeBo

punisher5112 wrote: »

Rgi wouldn't be able to fit the earth rod...
Reci is needed there.


Recommended get the whole lot sorted.

New board, wiring, earth rod and bonding if necessary.

I have a whole other thread on that... 25k+ was the last quote.

K.Flyer

GreeBo wrote: »

Sorry I meant the company hired to replace the boiler.
They've sent out both rgi and reci.
The reci connected the bonding to the board but the house has no earth rod. My question is, does the reci have to install one to make it compliant with current regulations?
I was quoted for one and then fobbed off when I asked the reci about it.

You're not having great luck with this company are you.
If you were quoted for one you should have gotten one.
Same as the boiler, I would pick the Bosch any day over the Ideal.
Did this reci sort out the daft time clock arrangement?

Risteard81

I don't believe my post could have been much clearer - an Earth electrode is mandatory.

K.Flyer

Risteard81 wrote: »

I don't believe my post could have been much clearer - an Earth electrode is mandatory.

If its known that a rod is not present whould a notice for rectification normally be issued?

punisher5112

GreeBo wrote: »

I have a whole other thread on that... 25k+ was the last quote.

I didn't see that....

€25k for board and re wire???

Risteard81

K.Flyer wrote: »

If its known that a rod is not present whould a notice for rectification normally be issued?

A Notice of Potential Hazard would be a likely document to issue if the electrode wasn't installed at the time for any reason. They're not optional accessories.

meercat

If a rec was present then he is responsible for the connection to the spur outlet and should have tested and certified this if requested.this test should check earth loop impedance and trip times of rcd. It would have been good practice to run a separate circuit for your boiler as he was also installing a bonding cable so it would be easy to pull both in together.

If the rec installed and bonded the pipe work then a certificate should be issued

If the rec had the cover off the distribution board and noticed there was no electrode present then a notice of potential hazard should be issued too.

kramer1

Why would you run an extra circuit just for the boiler?

meercat

kramer1 wrote: »

Why would you run an extra circuit just for the boiler?

Lots of reasons
It’s unclear if the boiler and pumps are rcd protected atm. Op says fuses are at the consumer unit. It’s a regulation that all circulation pumps are rcd protected. By installing a new circuit and using a dedicated rcbo then the new boiler is up to standard. It also prevents customers saying that everything was ok before gas boiler was fitted should the original rcd trip in the future. If socket rcd trips in the future then the boiler will continue to function.
It’s also unclear what condition the existing wiring is in and where the existing spur is tapped off. By installing a new circuit and testing accordingly then you would be 100% sure of the integrity of the boiler installation.

kramer1

Informative, thanks

GreeBo

meercat wrote: »

If a rec was present then he is responsible for the connection to the spur outlet and should have tested and certified this if requested.this test should check earth loop impedance and trip times of rcd. It would have been good practice to run a separate circuit for your boiler as he was also installing a bonding cable so it would be easy to pull both in together.

If the rec installed and bonded the pipe work then a certificate should be issued

If the rec had the cover off the distribution board and noticed there was no electrode present then a notice of potential hazard should be issued too.

He says he did check the impedance loop and thats why I didnt need an earth rod...
Zero certs for any of the work (RGI or RECI) and also no warranty on my boiler yet.

K.Flyer wrote: »

You're not having great luck with this company are you.
If you were quoted for one you should have gotten one.
Same as the boiler, I would pick the Bosch any day over the Ideal.
Did this reci sort out the daft time clock arrangement?

No, I'm pretty fecked off about it to be honest.
It was an expensive enough job but I had no heat and a baby so was kinda stuck, however an expensive job where you don't even get what you were quoted is another thing entirely.
I was going to let the Bosch Vs Ideal thing go, but now I'm just mad about the whole thing.

He "fixed" the issue by just removing the old clock and blanking it off...so I have wire snaking into places it doesnt need to go (from DB into the kitchen and then back out to a (single pole) switch by the boiler. This then feeds the boiler with another feed from the boiler to the new timeclock. The way it was originally left, once the old timeclock kicked off the boiler was without any power, which I dont believe is good for them.

punisher5112 wrote: »

I didn't see that....

€25k for board and re wire???

Yep, at least.
Now its a large 4 bed detached, but still.

meercat wrote: »

Lots of reasons
It’s unclear if the boiler and pumps are rcd protected atm. Op says fuses are at the consumer unit. It’s a regulation that all circulation pumps are rcd protected. By installing a new circuit and using a dedicated rcbo then the new boiler is up to standard. It also prevents customers saying that everything was ok before gas boiler was fitted should the original rcd trip in the future. If socket rcd trips in the future then the boiler will continue to function.
It’s also unclear what condition the existing wiring is in and where the existing spur is tapped off. By installing a new circuit and testing accordingly then you would be 100% sure of the integrity of the boiler installation.

Yeah, I would have expected new wiring and protection from the DB to the boiler. There is about 3M between the board and the boiler, so its not like it was going to take much effort, I also would have expected a RCD/RCBO and an earth rod, for now I have some bonding on the water/gas lines at the boiler (that I had to fix as one of the earths fell out when touched :rolleyes:) and a new earth into the board but thats it. So if one of my 50 year old ceramic fuses blows I guess I have no heat.

Thankfully I haven't paid them in full yet, but tbh I was stupid and only have a couple of hundred out of the €5K (:() left.

GreeBo

Edit, it really makes you fear for how many people are being ripped off day in and day out in this country.
I'm "lucky" in that I have some clue as to whats right/wrong (obv not up to speed on the regs in either case) but most people will happily just pay over the cash when the heat comes back.

This isnt a small company either...or at least I didnt think it was...

2011

Apologies for coming to this thread so late.

GreeBo wrote: »

He says he did check the impedance loop and thats why I didnt need an earth rod...

The rules dictate that you need an earth rod, end of. So no matter what test is carried out (including earth fault loop impedance) an earth rod is required.

As other posters have pointed out RGI are not permitted to work on the distribution board.

Unfortunately the quality of REC’s and RGI vary considerably.

I would not expect an RGI to look for an earth rod. Earth fault loop impedance tests can pass by a country mile even if there is no earth rod.

Many RECs still struggle with understanding the principles of testing. They just go through the motions. This is despite the fact that the ECSSA run most of the mandatory verification & testing courses.

Risteard81

The electrode is likely to have an infinitesimal effect on loop impedance in a TN-C-S system. This isn't its' purpose. It is there to provide an extra Earth reference to the DSO's PEN conductor and reduce the potential between the MET and true Earth.

As @2011 points out it is always required. This is fundamental stuff.

2011

+1

As Risteard says this is fundamental stuff.

GreeBo

Thanks for replies lads?

So am I correct in saying that to meet regs I should have an earth rod and a RCBO on a separate circuit to the boiler/pump along with certificates for both gas and electrics?

Anything else I should be demanding?

Also anyone that I should bother reporting this to?

Risteard81

GreeBo wrote: »

Thanks for replies lads?

So am I correct in saying that to meet regs I should have an earth rod and a RCBO on a separate circuit to the boiler/pump along with certificates for both gas and electrics?

Anything else I should be demanding?

Also anyone that I should bother reporting this to?

The heating system will require 30mA RCD protection, but it is not required to be a dedicated RCD (e.g. RCBO).

Your first course of action should be to bring it up with the REC and see whether he will sort this. If not then the logical next step would be to contact RECI.

Twister2

Once you start dealing with a new main bond on an old installation

The surely you're required to check neutralising,
main bonding of other metallic services and earthrod.

You can't do one in isolation safely on an old dwelling

GreeBo

Risteard81 wrote: »

The heating system will require 30mA RCD protection, but it is not required to be a dedicated RCD (e.g. RCBO).

Your first course of action should be to bring it up with the REC and see whether he will sort this. If not then the logical next step would be to contact RECI.

Hey, the company is coming back saying that I dont need an RCD/RCBO.

"All Gas boiler installs, upgrades and earth bonding works do not require an RCD/RCBO BREAKER ,once boiler is wired in with a 3amp spur connection works meets RGII regulations."

What about RECI regulations?

They also say my existing wiring was checked and meets regulations, but I'm fairly positive it will all have an undersized earth since its at least 14 years old?

Presume regulations would be to run new wiring in this scenario? (its an exposed run of about 3m , I really dont get why they wouldnt just do it as a matter of course!)

GreeBo

They have also come back and said that
"RGII cert covers all works carried out gas and electrical." so I wont be getting any RECI cert, which sounds like bollix to me, why was there an electrician & a plumber if I'm only getting a RGI cert?

meercat

555.3.1 a circuit supplying a water heating appliance shall be protected by an rcd having a residual operating current not exceeding 30mA

You’ve already stated a rec was out bonding the pipe work.

Did he also connect the boiler
He should have performed the tests as far as the spur outlet and certified as such
If he found issues in the installation then he should have issued a notice of potential hazard

GreeBo

meercat wrote: »

555.3.1 a circuit supplying a water heating appliance shall be protected by an rcd having a residual operating current not exceeding 30mA

You’ve already stated a rec was out bonding the pipe work.

Did he also connect the boiler
He should have performed the tests as far as the spur outlet and certified as such
If he found issues in the installation then he should have issued a notice of potential hazard

Cheers, great to get a regulation number.

He connected the new boiler to the existing fused spur (which in turn connects to the DB via a 30 amp ceramic fuse)

Can you share a rule regarding required earth size for the wiring?
Cheers

meercat

GreeBo wrote: »

Cheers, great to get a regulation number.

Can you share a rule regarding required earth size for the wiring?
Cheers

544.1.3
Main bonding conductors provided for the main bonding system according to 411.3.2 shall have a Conductivity of at least half that of the largest protective conductor in the installation but shall not be less than 10mm2 copper.

EHP

If the electrician connected to the existing fuse spur then this is minor works and he is not required to do any testing unless asked to which of course would carry extra costs. If at any stage he removed the cover off the fusebox then he is legally required to be a REC and to issue a cert 3. Most boiler upgrades are wired into existing fuse spurs and the existing bonding wire that's there once it is 10sq is used for this there is no requirement for testing.

Risteard81

EHP wrote: »

If the electrician connected to the existing fuse spur then this is minor works and he is not required to do any testing unless asked to which of course would carry extra costs. If at any stage he removed the cover off the fusebox then he is legally required to be a REC and to issue a cert 3. Most boiler upgrades are wired into existing fuse spurs and the existing bonding wire that's there once it is 10sq is used for this there is no requirement for testing.

He's not required to certify (unless requested), but still must comply with the Wiring Rules and should still be testing.

GreeBo

meercat wrote: »

544.1.3
Main bonding conductors provided for the main bonding system according to 411.3.2 shall have a Conductivity of at least half that of the largest protective conductor in the installation but shall not be less than 10mm2 copper.

Sorry, I meant for the boiler wiring rather than the main bonding.
The house is old, so all the TWE will have undersized earths (and my understanding is that this is no longer compliant?)

GreeBo

Risteard81 wrote: »

He's not required to certify (unless requested), but still must comply with the Wiring Rules and should still be testing.

EHP wrote: »

If the electrician connected to the existing fuse spur then this is minor works and he is not required to do any testing unless asked to which of course would carry extra costs. If at any stage he removed the cover off the fusebox then he is legally required to be a REC and to issue a cert 3. Most boiler upgrades are wired into existing fuse spurs and the existing bonding wire that's there once it is 10sq is used for this there is no requirement for testing.

The fusebox has no cover , but he was in there when upgrading the main bonding and the earthing for the boiler/pipes.

They ran a new earth to the DB but didn't run new wiring, I guess I'm asking is this covered in the regulations (based on the TWE earth size) and if so what reg is it?

Thanks for all replies so far

meercat

GreeBo wrote: »

Sorry, I meant for the boiler wiring rather than the main bonding.
The house is old, so all the TWE will have undersized earths (and my understanding is that this is no longer compliant?)

Min csa of conductors is dealt with on table 52a
All other regulations have already been quoted

If your distribution board has no cover on it then you should know it is a potential hazard yourself and get it dealt with.
The rec who installed the earth wiring should have issued you with a nph form though
I’ve already stated it would have been prudent of him to run a new circuit for the boiler while he was there

kramer1

In his defence, he was there for a boiler change, sounds like your house needs to be rewired, he should ve given you hazard notices, a lot of them probably.

GreeBo

meercat wrote: »

Min csa of conductors is dealt with on table 52a
All other regulations have already been quoted

If your distribution board has no cover on it then you should know it is a potential hazard yourself and get it dealt with.
The rec who installed the earth wiring should have issued you with a nph form though
I’ve already stated it would have been prudent of him to run a new circuit for the boiler while he was there

Understood, I'm trying to separate what would have been prudent/expected from what is required.
These guys are dicking me around so I want to be able to go back to them with facts and not just opinions (as they can say opinions would have cost more)

kramer1 wrote: »

In his defence, he was there for a boiler change, sounds like your house needs to be rewired, he should ve given you hazard notices, a lot of them probably.

Which is fair enough, but I want to ensure that the bit he did do, was done to regulations and certified if its supposed to be. I thought that any any work to a DB would require a cert from the RECI

meercat

meercat wrote: »

If a rec was present then he is responsible for the connection to the spur outlet and should have tested and certified this if requested.this test should check earth loop impedance and trip times of rcd. It would have been good practice to run a separate circuit for your boiler as he was also installing a bonding cable so it would be easy to pull both in together.

If the rec installed and bonded the pipe work then a certificate should be issued

If the rec had the cover off the distribution board and noticed there was no electrode present then a notice of potential hazard should be issued too.

All your questions have been answered in this and other posts from contributors

listermint

GreeBo wrote: »

Understood, I'm trying to separate what would have been prudent/expected from what is required.
These guys are dicking me around so I want to be able to go back to them with facts and not just opinions (as they can say opinions would have cost more)



Which is fair enough, but I want to ensure that the bit he did do, was done to regulations and certified if its supposed to be. I thought that any any work to a DB would require a cert from the RECI

But your board still has no cover on it, adhering to some regulations and not other ones (potentially more important) is odd.

If you are concerned about regs and certification then most appropriate thing would be to get a RECI to review your house for compliance and get a quote for bringing it to that.

kramer1

He should've told you the house needed to be tested, board, mains tails, earth rod, bonding needed to be upgraded, and any remedial work required to get the installation to pass the tests. After a price had been agreed on that, and the work completed he could connect your boiler.

Risteard81

No potentially about it - a lack of cover on the distribution board creates a real and immediate danger of electric shock. I would have refused to carry out any work on your installation without this first being rectified.

The RCD for the heating system is required by Rule 555.3.2 (not 555.3.1 as incorrectly quoted) - for "circuits supplying auxiliary equipment associated with water services and water systems (e.g. pumps)".

Risteard81

kramer1 wrote: »

He should've told you the house needed to be tested, board, mains tails, earth rod, bonding needed to be upgraded, and any remedial work required to get the installation to pass the tests. After a price had been agreed on that, and the work completed he could connect your boiler.

Precisely.

2011

OP, it sounds like the wiring in your home requires some urgent attention. The electrical work required to rectify is beyond what would be expected by someone connecting a new boiler. Based on what you have described so far I would expect that a proper survey would result in many other wiring issues being uncovered.

The advice from multiple posters on this thread has been consistent, now it is just going around in circles. Do yourself a favor and get an experienced electrician in ASAP to carry out a proper assessment of the wiring and get it resolved.