Agroforestry -hill land.

80sDiesel

Brother inherited about 30 acres of Hill land. Basically bordering commanage. Currently rented out to sheep farmer. He would like to do more so wondering whether agroforestry is the way to go. Too hilly for hay/sileage so might be ideal? So can get the premiums and still rent it out. Am I missing something?

ganmo

80sDiesel wrote: »

Brother inherited about 30 acres of Hill land. Basically bordering commanage. Currently rented out to sheep farmer. He would like to do more so wondering whether agroforestry is the way to go. Too hilly for hay/sileage so might be ideal? So can get the premiums and still rent it out. Am I missing something?

Check to see if theres any rights on the commonage

_Brian

Hearing lots of chat that premiums are going to get a boost, be very reluctant to do much until something is sorted.

Danzy

_Brian wrote: »

Hearing lots of chat that premiums are going to get a boost, be very reluctant to do much until something is sorted.

Think it is now 600 a hectare for 5 years, lot of costs covered as well.

Really hard to get clear info.

Must find out what the timber value is, time frame etc

80sDiesel

_Brian wrote: »

Hearing lots of chat that premiums are going to get a boost, be very reluctant to do much until something is sorted.

Thanks yeah was wondering that with the carbon credits the gov needs to earn.

_Brian

I always wonder why its only 5 years premium for agroforestry ?

Danzy

_Brian wrote: »

I always wonder why its only 5 years premium for agroforestry ?

Possibly cause the timber is short duration, mostly for veneers etc.

So not long to commercial return.

The details on that though are difficult to find.

Examples are hard to find.

80sDiesel

It's actually oak,cherry,synamore so def not short rotation. Guessing it's a financial incentive for the short term as the long long long term benefits are decent and also factoring into account the use of land for Agri also.

Could we see in future 'olive row' oak trees adoring the landscape. Doesn't sound bad to me.

el_gaucho

Is it this type you’re asking about?

https://www.teagasc.ie/crops/forestry/grants/establishment-grants/agroforestry/

bogman_bass

I think agroforestry is a reallly good compromise. I know when I was on the Macra Ag Afairs committee we called for more support for it rather blanket planting Sitka

Cattlepen

Danzy wrote: »

Possibly cause the timber is short duration, mostly for veneers etc.

So not long to commercial return.

The details on that though are difficult to find.

Examples are hard to find.

It’s in no way a short term type of thing. It’s hoping to be high value high quality timber that after thinking’s will be left to become fully mature woodlands for the future. There are plantations in Europe and the foresters that mind them are the seventh generation in their family to mind them. The oak in these forests is worth a fortune because it’s so perfect. Some have decided to let the forests grow on another 30/40 year because it will be almost priceless at harvest

mr.stonewall

Just wondering can sfp be claimed on this type of forestry

Say my name

Andrew Doyle TD gave a speech yesterday at the Biofarm event.
He missed the first half of the day as he said he was double booked. So he missed all the talk of farmland capturing carbon from Christine Jones.
He came in, gave a speech about forestry and declared the government will be backing agro forestry. He got his picture taken for the records but it was a hell of a missed opportunity to educate someone in power.

I didn't write down much on the day but the little I wrote down was Jerusalem artichoke captures 6 tons of carbon per acre, a mature forest captures 3 to 4tons.

A biological active pasture sward captures 4 times more carbon than a wheat crop.

A gram of healthy soil has more microbes than people on the earth.
One drop of rumen fluid has as much microbes as a gram of soil.

And if you've diabetes. Eat Jerusalem artichoke.
Yacon is good for Crohns disease.

And diversity, diversity, diversity.
Diversity with plants. They grow better themselves in a diverse mix.
Diversity with plants will give a diversity of bacteria in the soil. And diversity of food with ourselves will give a diverse range of bacteria in our gut and lead to better health. And we should be eating 20 different types of vegetable in the week.

If anyone is going for agroforestry. The advice seems to be to go a range of types of tree and not just the one.
And probably the same advice for the herbland plants.
Make it so it doesn't need any inputs.

One positive of the event is Darragh McCullough has now been "educated".

bogman_bass

mr.stonewall wrote: »

Just wondering can sfp be claimed on this type of forestry

It can yes.

Danzy

mr.stonewall wrote: »

Just wondering can sfp be claimed on this type of forestry

Yes.

As regarding duration.

I think it is short as these are thinnings.
24 years of age for oak.

Relatively short.

Dinzee Conlee

Danzy wrote: »

Yes.

As regarding duration.

I think it is short as these are thinnings.
24 years of age for oak.

Relatively short.

Surely an oak would hardly be grown much at all after 24 years?

Birdnuts

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

Surely an oak would hardly be grown much at all after 24 years?

You'd be surprised - on Tommy Early's Organic farm next to Lough Allen, he sowed an Oak/Birch mix in 2010 and the former is now already over 15ft from what I saw there on a course last month. There is a new agro-forestry project on Inishownen too that has EU support involvning native forestry strips and and traditional cattle breeds. The aim of it is to reduce erosion,improve water quality and habitat while providing potential alternative income for farmers via branding and other spin-offs

Dinzee Conlee

Birdnuts wrote: »

You'd be surprised - on Tommy Early's Organic farm next to Lough Allen, he sowed an Oak/Birch mix in 2010 and the former is now already over 15ft from what I saw there on a course last month. There is a new agro-forestry project on Inishownen too that has EU support involvning native forestry strips and and traditional cattle breeds. The aim of it is to reduce erosion,improve water quality and habitat while providing potential alternative income for farmers via branding and other spin-offs

But cutting down an oak after 24 years seems too soon - I had thought it would need to grow for a long time for it to come to anything worthwhile timber wise?

Can anyone tell me - if I planted an acre of oak next year, and cut it down in 25 years time (around retirement time for me) what kinda return would I get?

endainoz

Say my name wrote: »

Andrew Doyle TD gave a speech yesterday at the Biofarm event.
He missed the first half of the day as he said he was double booked. So he missed all the talk of farmland capturing carbon from Christine Jones.
He came in, gave a speech about forestry and declared the government will be backing agro forestry. He got his picture taken for the records but it was a hell of a missed opportunity to educate someone in power.

I didn't write down much on the day but the little I wrote down was Jerusalem artichoke captures 6 tons of carbon per acre, a mature forest captures 3 to 4tons.

A biological active pasture sward captures 4 times more carbon than a wheat crop.

A gram of healthy soil has more microbes than people on the earth.
One drop of rumen fluid has as much microbes as a gram of soil.

And if you've diabetes. Eat Jerusalem artichoke.
Yacon is good for Crohns disease.

And diversity, diversity, diversity.
Diversity with plants. They grow better themselves in a diverse mix.
Diversity with plants will give a diversity of bacteria in the soil. And diversity of food with ourselves will give a diverse range of bacteria in our gut and lead to better health. And we should be eating 20 different types of vegetable in the week.

If anyone is going for agroforestry. The advice seems to be to go a range of types of tree and not just the one.
And probably the same advice for the herbland plants.
Make it so it doesn't need any inputs.

One positive of the event is Darragh McCullough has now been "educated".

Sounds like a Christine Jones speech there alright! I find her talks so interesting. The facts she gave about chemical fert were really eye opening, like the way the soil only absorbs between 10% and 40% of N, the rest goes up into the atmosphere is essentially pollution. Or if you have applied P for ten consecutive years you have enough in the soil to do for 100 years.

I'd wager anyone who would listen to her would seriously think about going out with the bag ever again, I know I won't.

Danzy

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

Surely an oak would hardly be grown much at all after 24 years?

One on the garden is quite impressive.

They do not want big trees for veneers.

Cherry tree option as well.

Birdnuts

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

But cutting down an oak after 24 years seems too soon - I had thought it would need to grow for a long time for it to come to anything worthwhile timber wise?

Can anyone tell me - if I planted an acre of oak next year, and cut it down in 25 years time (around retirement time for me) what kinda return would I get?

I believe the thinnings and off-cuts have a certain value for different types of carpentry/furniture - obviously the tree will be far from mature at such a young age to justify clearfelling such a plot

Danzy

endainoz wrote: »

Sounds like a Christine Jones speech there alright! I find her talks so interesting. The facts she gave about chemical fert were really eye opening, like the way the soil only absorbs between 10% and 40% of N, the rest goes up into the atmosphere is essentially pollution. Or if you have applied P for ten consecutive years you have enough in the soil to do for 100 years.

I'd wager anyone who would listen to her would seriously think about going out with the bag ever again, I know I won't.

Seems a natural level can be maintained once fertilizer is gone.

https://www.barenbrug.co.uk/farming/products/scotland-grass-seed-mixtures/barmix

Will try something like that on a padd9ock next year.

Cocksfoot can send roots down 4 feet.

Dinzee Conlee

Birdnuts wrote: »

I believe the thinnings and off-cuts have a certain value for different types of carpentry/furniture - obviously the tree will be far from mature at such a young age to justify clearfelling such a plot

But would you have much thinnings in agroforestry?

I would have thought it would allow density planting?
But maybe it’s planted fairly high, and you think hard once the trees get big?

I am interested in this, I looked into it a while back, and I prob will do it on a few acres.

Danzy

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

But would you have much thinnings in agroforestry?

I would have thought it would allow density planting?
But maybe it’s planted fairly high, and you think hard once the trees get big?

I am interested in this, I looked into it a while back, and I prob will do it on a few acres.

Density is quite small, don't have figures off top of head but you can cut bales off the field if you want.
https://www.teagasc.ie/crops/forestry/grants/establishment-grants/agroforestry/

400 to 1000 trees per acre

toleratethis

Say my name wrote: »

it was a hell of a missed opportunity to educate someone in power.

Having some experience of the man,and politicians in general I'll defer to Dr Christine Jones comment and something I had believed before biofarm19 "This needs to be a grassroots movement". The more politics, from govt and opposition to other organisations that can be kept away from regen ag the better.

Say my name wrote: »

One positive of the event is Darragh McCullough has now been "educated".

Some change from the first morning being an "unapologetic conventional farmer" to close of the second day "I'm one of the family". It was so encouraging both days that people recognised this was an educational event, neither saw nor heard of anyone sniping at others over their current system.

Best two days I've invested in agriculture in my life, easily.

Say my name

toleratethis wrote: »

Having some experience of the man,and politicians in general I'll defer to Dr Christine Jones comment and something I had believed before biofarm19 "This needs to be a grassroots movement". The more politics, from govt and opposition to other organisations that can be kept away from regen ag the better.




Some change from the first morning being an "unapologetic conventional farmer" to close of the second day "I'm one of the family". It was so encouraging both days that people recognised this was an educational event, neither saw nor heard of anyone sniping at others over their current system.

Best two days I've invested in agriculture in my life, easily.

The trouble is now, what next?

You've got the likes of Teagasc and icos, etc going on about nitrogen use and now dairy bull breeding problems.
NEWSFLASH! It was ye''re advice that led to these "problems".
If this was a communist country that'd be a firing squad offence. In a lessor country with a sense of justice it'd be a firing offence with pension removed..

I missed the second day but on the first Darragh was sitting right in front of me and I could tell he was astounded by what he was hearing. 3ton of oats and 30ton of fodder beet grown organically per acre.
They were stellar speakers alright.

I suppose I could do worse than look into joining BASE Ireland..

toleratethis

Say my name wrote: »

The trouble is now, what next?

You've got the likes of Teagasc and icos, etc going on about nitrogen use and now dairy bull breeding problems.
NEWSFLASH! It was ye''re advice that led to these "problems".
If this was a communist country that'd be a firing squad offence. In a lessor country with a sense of justice it'd be a firing offence with pension removed..

I missed the second day but on the first Darragh was sitting right in front of me and I could tell he was astounded by what he was hearing. 3ton of oats and 30ton of fodder beet grown organically per acre.
They were stellar speakers alright.

I suppose I could do worse than look into joining BASE Ireland..

Darraghs cough looked to be well softened on a couple of occasions to be fair, I was keeping an eye on him.

As to what next, build, keep running workshops and events. Show other farmers that this works, never dictate.

I think Dr Helen Sheridan, smartgrass, was on day 2. She made one comment in particular that stuck with me.

"I'm not saying there's anything wrong with what we're doing (conventional), but we can't keep on doing it."

Uhm..... right.

tabby aspreme

Darragh was at the Teagasc forestry event in Oak Park and seemed genuinely interested in what was going on.
Some of the earlier posts here were asking about the timber produced in Agro Forestry, I would think the tree's would be grown to full maturity with very little thinning, especially at the lower planting density, cherry takes 60-80 years, oak 80 - 150 years, walnut 80 -120 years too mature, trees for veneer need to have clear straight timber with no knots, so regular pruning would be needed to keep the tree's from branching out, also walnut grown on good land may have very little valuable dark wood and a lot of lighter colored sapwood.