Live event 6:30pm Wednesday 6th Nov ESB ecars

zg3409

This event will be live streamed at 6:30pm today. There is a link on the right to the live stream.

I think there may be the ability to ask questions as part of the q&a at the end if the event.

Recordings of the event are only available to engineers Ireland members

http://www.engineersireland.ie/groups/divisions/energy-environment/events/esb%E2%80%99s-ev-charging-developments-in-ireland-and-the.aspx


ESB’s EV Charging Developments in Ireland and the UK


Wednesday, 6 November 2019
Time(s)From 6:30 PM
Venue
Engineers Ireland, 22 Clyde Road, Ballsbridge, Dublin 4
About the Event

In 2018, ESB received €10m funding from the Climate Action Fund for its EV High Power Charging Infrastructure Development project in Ireland. ESB’s domestic pipeline has expanded to include the project, which will entail the significant overhaul and development of the EV charging network and the deployment of the next generation of infrastructure, capable of recharging EVs at up to 350 kW at the larger, MV-connected hubs. This project requires the development of a new electrical systems architecture for ecars, and promises to provide an entirely new and improved recharging experience for EV drivers in Ireland.

ESB ecars is also active in the UK market, where exceptionally strong policy drivers have stimulated EV demand to a far greater extent. ESB has since successfully won contracts in both London and Coventry to develop EV rapid charging networks, with over 100 rapid chargers now operational in Great Britain, and is positioned to expand further across the UK in the very near future.

About the Speaker
Brian Carroll, Chartered Engineer
Brian works within the ESB EV Solutions team as an Electromobility Specialist. He has worked in ESB’s ecars team since 2014 and is a graduate of Electrical and Electronic Engineer in University College Cork and also has a MSc in Energy Management from DIT. Brian’s role in the Climate Action Fund project is primarily focussed on technical and project delivery matters. Prior to this project, Brian has been working on the UK ecars projects as the technical lead in developing ESB proposals to local authority tenders in that market.

Brian also worked for four years as a High Voltage Substation Design Engineer with ESB International. As an undergraduate in UCC, his final year project was EV-focussed and involved the construction of a scaled-down version of the Tesla Roadster’s reductive charging system, so electromobility was always an area of interest for him. Brian has also served as Ireland delegate technical expert to the International Energy Agency on the topic of Vehicle-to-Grid technology, expanding in particular upon the areas of system service markets and DSO considerations around distributed generation and the electrification of transport.

Admission
Free and all are welcome to attend!

Silent Running

Anybody get this to work?

zg3409

Live stream just started 6:34pm

Silent Running

Very poor stream. It would have been nice to see the Powerpoint slides.

Kramer

Live now & very interesting .

Silent Running

Kramer wrote: »

Live now & very interesting .

Just an overview at this stage.

Silent Running

Now it's getting interesting.

Silent Running

An interesting clarification on the overstay charge. You'll be charged when your car is finished charging and still connected.

_ned_

This guy knows his stuff. And it's really interesting to get the ESB perspective on the problem of enabling mass EV transport. Enjoying this. Wish the Engineers would give the questioners a mike.

Silent Running

That was very interesting.

Confirming that battery capacity should settle out between 40-60kWh.

The problem with charger hubs is finding suitable sites to take the 10x5m structure to service the chargers.

V2X seems problematic with very expensive equipment and a very long payback period.

_ned_

Really glad I caught this. Very impressed with the realism and attention to detail here. We all want loads of chargers around the corner. Who'da thought the big problem is often the real-estate you have to persuade someone to dedicate to the EVs being charged, and not the charging point itself? Lot of good info about the business case from the charger company point-of-view.. We know we're on the right side of this evolution but it's nice to see we're not alone. I was really encouraged by this presentation. NOTE: Engineers Ireland: thank you for a really interesting presentation but you really need to update your presentation capabilities. My 6-yr-old niece watches stuff on you-tube presented by morons that's way more professional than this, We're engineers, dammit! In a country that prides itself on tech.

KCross

Took some notes….

Suspects Ioniq reduced charging rate on new Ioniq due to warranty concerns! That'll raise a few hackles on this forum!

40-60kWh battery sizes expected long term.

3C charge rates considered exceptional, not the norm in the medium term.

New hubs will use 350kW capable chargers with the power distributed over 2 bays as cars are not expected to be able to utilise 350kW.

Add 150kW charger alongside existing 50kW chargers. Not sure how many sites that will happen to.

Accepted the chargers were workshop quality in the pilot project. New equipment is much better.

Regrets single charger sites and was the main thing they would change if they had their time back.... no **** sherlock!

4-8 bays in super hubs.... nothing new there.
Over 4-5yrs to roll out full plan. Good engagement with MSA's.

Overstay fee is important and will be introduced.

AC charging for charging once they have it upgraded. Progressing quickly.


He mentioned the 24hr support and how good that was as most are only business hours. He might be right there, most are. Mentioned a quirk of the i3 where if the door is open the charge session doesnt start.... is that true?


Mentioned IEVOA as being important and social media groups! Looks like they monitor those.


V2x discussion…. Regulation required.

Alternative to diesel buses in the fleet is next topic to be discussed in Dec.



Good talk, pity the slides werent visible and you couldnt hear the questions alright.

Silent Running

It was a shockingly bad presentation alright. I know there were only 35-40 online viewers, but I'd be embarrassed to put my name to it.

The content was great, the quality of the online feed was dreadful.

Kramer

KCross wrote: »

Suspects Ioniq reduced charging rate on new Ioniq due to warranty concerns!

Oh Gawd please don't let unkel read that!

Black_Knight

Silent Running wrote: »

It was a shockingly bad presentation alright. I know there were only 35-40 online viewers, but I'd be embarrassed to put my name to it.

The content was great, the quality of the online feed was dreadful.

So the presentation was great, the broadcast production value was shockingly bad.

Tbh, from listening in, it didn't seem like the slides were anything more than a few bullet points in Ecars, images of old and new chargers, the multi bay mock up, and a few honourable mentions to EV association and customer support etc.
I certainly didn't feel like I missed anything

ewj1978

KCross wrote: »

Mentioned a quirk of the i3 where if the door is open the charge session doesnt start.... is that true?

Its never stopped mine from charging..

Mike9832

KCross wrote: »

Took some notes….

Suspects Ioniq reduced charging rate on new Ioniq due to warranty concerns! That'll raise a few hackles on this forum!
.

They wrong there

Nothing to do with warranty

Hyundai got a new chemistry that's more cost effective

A regular poster on reddit posted that they amazingly getting the 38kWh battery cheaper than the old 28kWh one from manufacturer

Was too good a deal to turn down for them and his thoughts were its only a stop gap car for Hyundai as Koreans are working on a dedicated platform for EVs

KCross

Mike9832 wrote: »

They wrong there

Nothing to do with warranty

Hyundai got a new chemistry that's more cost effective

A regular poster on reddit posted that they amazingly getting the 38kWh battery cheaper than the old 28kWh one from manufacturer

Was too good a deal to turn down for them and his thoughts were its only a stop gap car for Hyundai as Koreans are working on a dedicated platform for EVs

Of course it’s cheaper. How is that amazing? Battery prices are dropping so they increased the capacity to give more range!!

unkel

Thanks for the notes, KCross. Pretty conservative stuff all that. But I guess you wouldn't expect much vision from a cosy semi-state company in a small peripheral country.

Mike9832

KCross wrote: »

Of course it’s cheaper. How is that amazing? Battery prices are dropping so they increased the capacity to give more range!!

Yes its amazing

The car is now thousands of euro more expensive

Yet its cheaper for them to produce

Did they have any opinion on that?

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Thanks for the notes, KCross. Pretty conservative stuff all that. But I guess you wouldn't expect much vision from a cosy semi-state company in a small peripheral country.

On the contrary, a bit of it was about their expansion in the UK and the tenders they are involved in there so they are not at all peripheral when it comes to EV charging or the ESB business in general... they are very much international.

The detail on their expansion plans here was encouraging, just the timeframes are a bit long for my liking. I could be wrong but I think he said its over 4-5 years.


The kW and C-rate figures he was discussing were all a lead up to how they decided on configuring their chargers. i.e. No point in putting in a bank of 350kW chargers when the vast majority of cars over the next 10 years wont be capable of utilising anything close to that.... hardly a conservative approach to take when it costs millions with an already very long payback timeframe... i think he mentioned 10 years. It is a business after all.

Personally I think he has got most of it right and obviously they will have been talking to charger manufacturers and car manufacturers so they know.

Ultimately, if there is a slew of 350kW cars come out they are ready to capitalise on it if they need to, as he said the chargers would be 350kW capable.

KCross

Mike9832 wrote: »

Yes its amazing

The car is now thousands of euro more expensive

Yet its cheaper for them to produce

I dont know if its cheaper to produce. Maybe it is, maybe it isnt. Battery prices are gone down but battery capacity has gone up so its hard to tell how that balances out. Whatever guy you read on reddit could be speculating, I wouldnt take his word for it anyway.

We also know that the lower C-rate on the new Ioniq is partially due to lower pack voltage but I presume its also because the battery manufacturer has told them what is acceptable to maintain warranty so there probaby is some truth to what the eCars guy is saying, but its not the full story.

tbf to him, he was just offering an opinion, not stating fact on that point.

Mike9832 wrote: »

Did they have any opinion on that?

I didnt get into Q&A with him on it!

Mike9832

KCross wrote: »

I didnt get into Q&A with him on it!

Get you

Lumen

The best selling EV in the world charges at over 150kW peak* even in base spec so his argument that 150kW is enough for the next ten years seems instantly out of date.

* 170 kW SR+ and 250 kW LR

Silent Running

Lumen wrote: »

The best selling EV in the world charges at over 150kW peak* even in base spec so his argument that 150kW is enough for the next ten years seems instantly out of date.

* 170 kW SR+ and 250 kW LR

He did mention that the Model 3 theoretically charges at 250kW, but that in reality it actually charges at around 170. So they are aware of the claims of manufacturers versus reality.

He mentioned true 350kW cars like the Porsche, but said that they are unlikely to be common in Ireland in the coming years.

eddhorse

On mobile but can I go listen to this now after the fact?

Mike9832

Lumen wrote: »

The best selling EV in the world charges at over 150kW peak* even in base spec so his argument that 150kW is enough for the next ten years seems instantly out of date.

* 170 kW SR+ and 250 kW LR

Good point

Tesla are in a whole different world, that is true

They have there own private network, the privileged owners wont be using ESB network much

They'll have to be pretty desperate or something went horribly wrong to use it

10 years in Tesla time is an eternity, who knows what kind of batteries they will have by then

ELM327

Silent Running wrote: »

He did mention that the Model 3 theoretically charges at 250kW, but that in reality it actually charges at around 170. So they are aware of the claims of manufacturers versus reality.

He mentioned true 350kW cars like the Porsche, but said that they are unlikely to be common in Ireland in the coming years.

That's funny, because I could have sworn I saw 190kW continuous on Ionity chargers, let alone actual 250kW on V3 superchargers.

Silent Running

Mike9832 wrote: »

Good point

Tesla are in a whole different world, that is true

They have there own private network, the privileged owners wont be using ESB network much

They'll have to be pretty desperate or something went horribly wrong to use it

10 years in Tesla time is an eternity, who knows what kind of batteries they will have by then

So you're finally going to take the plunge and buy a Tesla? Will you really give up all the advantages of a diesel Fabia?

ELM327

Silent Running wrote: »

So you're finally going to take the plunge and buy a Tesla? Will you really give up all the advantages of a diesel Fabia?

He has a deposit down don't you know. :pac::p

Mike9832

Silent Running wrote: »

So you're finally going to take the plunge and buy a Tesla? Will you really give up all the advantages of a diesel Fabia?

Someday

Thats enough joking around

Shefwedfan won't be happy

Lumen

ELM327 wrote: »

That's funny, because I could have sworn I saw 190kW continuous on Ionity chargers, let alone actual 250kW on V3 superchargers.

And here's a graph, albeit from all the way back in March.



Source: https://electrek.co/2019/03/07/tesla-v3-supercharger-action-first-look/

Tesla is a bit ahead of the pack, but they show what is possible right now with a mainstream EV*. No imagination is required.

Anyway, I think someone said they could upgrade from 175kW in future, so whatever, I don't want to overwork my own point. I think everyone probably agrees that a load of 175kW chargers is much better than what we have right now.

* I appreciate that calling the Model 3 a "mainstream EV" winds some people up because they can't afford one, but the reality is that they make up a substantial fraction of current new EV sales.

Silent Running

ELM327 wrote: »

That's funny, because I could have sworn I saw 190kW continuous on Ionity chargers, let alone actual 250kW on V3 superchargers.

Yeah, I'm sure he wasn't talking about V3 superchargers, more likely the ones they're installing. They seem to have done their own research to make the call that 175 is sufficient, for now. They can be upgraded in the future, but they simply don't see the demand for 350kW at this point.

Silent Running

Lumen wrote: »

I appreciate that calling the Model 3 a "mainstream EV" winds some people up because they can't afford one, but the reality is that they make up a substantial fraction of current new EV sales.

No, the Model 3 is certainly a mainstream EV. The body type won't suit everyone, me included, but the demand for them is there. The current wave of deliveries releasing a build up of back orders is, no doubt, inflating the sales figures, and this, along with upcoming strong contenders, will probably see sales figures settle at a more normal level. But mainstream? Absolutely no denying that fact.

ELM327

Mike9832 wrote: »

Someday

Thats enough joking around

Shefwedfan won't be happy

Can it, you messer

KCross

Lumen wrote: »

The best selling EV in the world charges at over 150kW peak* even in base spec so his argument that 150kW is enough for the next ten years seems instantly out of date.

* 170 kW SR+ and 250 kW LR

Peak dont count for **** really.

ELM327 wrote: »

That's funny, because I could have sworn I saw 190kW continuous on Ionity chargers, let alone actual 250kW on V3 superchargers.

I watched a Bjorn vid recently where it ramped down quickly enough to under 150kW. Did you really see a sustained 190kW.... upto what SoC?

And was that with the battery pre-conditioned to take it?

Lumen wrote: »

And here's a graph, albeit from all the way back in March.



Tesla is a bit ahead of the pack, but they show what is possible right now with a mainstream EV*. No imagination is required.

Doesnt that graph somewhat prove his point though. It only maintained that 250kW for 5% and was under 175kW by 30%.

If you got a constant 175kW I cant imagine your charge time would change much.


The point he made is that you have to trade-off between charge speed, network costs, charger costs and what the market needs. They've designed it for the future but they see the market more in terms of Niro's, ID.3's, Ioniqs etc.... i.e. much less than 150kW.


I also remember Bjorn saying recently that a 175kW cable is a few hundred but a 350kW water cooled cable is like €5k or something with more failure points due to the extra equipment to work the cooling, so again you can see why they would not initially go for that when it would be barely utilised. Seems like a reasonable commercial decision to me.

Lumen

KCross wrote: »

Doesnt that graph somewhat prove his point though. It only maintained that 250kW for 5% and was under 175kW by 30%.

Yes and no. That chart was in March. This is from June.



It's over 200kW between 5-35%.

Source: https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/24/tesla-model-3-on-supercharger-v3-adds-50-range-in-under-12-minutes-charts/

So your paraphrase of his that "No point in putting in a bank of 350kW chargers when the vast majority of cars over the next 10 years wont be capable of utilising anything close to that"

Seems questionable, at least if you flip it round to "No point in putting in anything over 175kW when the vast majority of cars over the next 10 years wont be capable of utilising anything over that".

Remember that article from a week or so ago about putting heating elements inside the cells to boost charge rates? It seemed like a fairly straightforward modification of the current cell designs.

It is quite possible that the imminent crop of ~75kW "fast" charging EVs (e.g. Kona, e-Niro) look incredibly slow within 3 years, let alone 10.

KCross

Lumen wrote: »

So your paraphrase of his that "No point in putting in a bank of 350kW chargers when the vast majority of cars over the next 10 years wont be capable of utilising anything close to that"

Seems questionable, at least if you flip it round to "No point in putting in anything over 175kW when the vast majority of cars over the next 10 years wont be capable of utilising anything over that".

Do you think there will be alot of EV's in the next 10 years that will exceed 175kW in Ireland?

Bare in mind now as well that the Model 3 doesnt hit those 250kW rates unless the battery is heated to 50°C first.

Personally I dont see that being at all common. Tesla are likely to be the only mainstream EV's that will do it and they have superchargers to go to so not necessarily eCars target market either.

Lumen wrote: »

Remember that article from a week or so ago about putting heating elements inside the cells to boost charge rates? It seemed like a fairly straightforward modification of the current cell designs.

Bjorn has a good vid on it around pre-conditioning the Model 3 battery and what rate he gets before and after pre-conditioning. Hitting the peak rate is not a given at all.

Lumen wrote: »

It is quite possible that the imminent crop of ~75kW "fast" charging EVs (e.g. Kona, e-Niro) look incredibly slow within 3 years, let alone 10.

If you take out Tesla's (and the Taycan) what cars now, or in the next 3 years, are going to exceed 175kW?
The ID.3 will max at 125kW (if you pay for the privilege). Otherwise its a 50kW car.

e208, Corsa, Mini, etc all appear to be <100kW.

Tesla's are streets ahead but the eCars network isnt basing its financial committments on one relatively small scale manufacturer.


Regardless of their reasoning, I wish they'd just get on with it. As you said, 175kW anywhere would be good at this point!

slave1

KCross wrote: »

The kW and C-rate figures he was discussing were all a lead up to how they decided on configuring their chargers. i.e. No point in putting in a bank of 350kW chargers when the vast majority of cars over the next 10 years wont be capable of utilising anything close to that.... hardly a conservative approach to take when it costs millions with an already very long payback timeframe... i think he mentioned 10 years. It is a business after all.

LOL, 8 very short years ago Tesla launched the Roadster, basically a converted Lotus with 11kW AC charging only. Now look what they have achieved and currently charging at.
I think they are underestimating what progress will be made in the next 10 years.

Tesla have already got to a 10minute super quick charge so they should be anticipating that's the way forward.
I think ~60 will be the normal entry battery size alright but rate of charge will dramatically increase.

KCross

slave1 wrote: »

I think they are underestimating what progress will be made in the next 10 years.

Only time will tell.
They are 350kW capable so there isnt an issue really if it comes to pass.

slave1 wrote: »

Tesla have already got to a 10minute super quick charge so they should be anticipating that's the way forward.
I think ~60 will be the normal entry battery size alright but rate of charge will dramatically increase.

I dont think the other OEM's got the memo though! All mainstream EV's that are slated to come out in the next 3 years or so are all <150kW. Tesla is an exception and leading the way.

Are you aware of any EV's coming out that will do 175kW+ in the next few years?

slave1

Nope, but who knows when you extend out to 10 yrs, hopefully I'll have my runaround Model 3 by then

Lumen

Lumen wrote: »

* I appreciate that calling the Model 3 a "mainstream EV" winds some people up because they can't afford one, but the reality is that they make up a substantial fraction of current new EV sales.

The M3 is significantly cheaper in the U.S. Probably making it more mainstream than in Ireland, 48-50 K is well beyond the average cost of a car in Ireland.

unkel

Model 3 is the best selling car in several countries. Very much mainstream.

250kW that's well over 3C

From those tiny little 2170 cells



The ESB would do well to aim their new fast chargers at the charging speeds of actual 2019 cars like the Model 3, and not on what their own very conservative view is of the future

KCross

Sure the small issue of it being commercially viable don’t matter!

Personally I’d rather see more 175kW chargers vs less 350kW chargers.

JohnC.

unkel wrote: »

Model 3 is the best selling car in several countries. Very much mainstream.

Is that across the year or in the month they had a glut of deliveries together?

unkel

KCross wrote: »

Sure the small issue of it being commercially viable don’t matter!

They are an ultra conservative semi state company as I said. Their lookout on business comes from that. They even need tax payers money to do the installs :rolleyes:

Audi, VW, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Ford, Tesla and the like are all installing 300+ kW chargers today. In a commercially viable way. Not costing the tax payer anything

Maybe ESB should concentrate on what they know best and leave the install and exploitation of fast chargers to proper commercial companies.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

They are an ultra conservative semi state company as I said. Their lookout on business comes from that. They even need tax payers money to do the installs :rolleyes:

Audi, VW, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Ford, Tesla and the like are all installing 300+ kW chargers today. In a commercially viable way. Not costing the tax payer anything

Maybe ESB should concentrate on what they know best and leave the install and exploitation of fast chargers to proper commercial companies.

How you think 175kW chargers that are 350kW capable, if required, is conservative I don’t know.

And some Ionity chargers are installed in exactly that way also.

I sense your distaste for ESB so I’ll leave you at it!

Kramer

unkel wrote: »

Maybe ESB should concentrate on what they know best and leave the install and exploitation of fast chargers to proper commercial companies.

You didn't see the presentation? He did speak about how they had tendered for & won contracts in the UK for the provision/maintenance of a network of rapid chargers in Coventry.
They had to compete commercially for this & are every much a proper commercial company, in the UK at least. They have 10 years of experience in the industry too.

ESB for the win .

It was a good presentation I though generally. Biggest disappointment again was the not unexpected, 4 to 5 year timeframe.
Should be complete at the same time as the national broadband plan & possibly brexit .

unkel

Kramer wrote: »

They had to compete commercially for this & are every much a proper commercial company, in the UK at least.

In fairness to them, the ESB has had successful commercial interests in the UK for many years now.

Over here though, they are holding their hand up for the tax payer to please fund them. The state giving subsidies to a semi-state company to compete with fully commercial companies. Surely this must be illegal?

KCross

Kramer wrote: »

You didn't see the presentation? He did speak about how they had tendered for & won contracts in the UK for the provision/maintenance of a network of rapid chargers in Coventry.
They had to compete commercially for this & are every much a proper commercial company, in the UK at least.

The presenter is based in London I think?

He was involved in those tenders so he knows the market well I’d say.

ELM327

Kramer wrote: »

You didn't see the presentation? He did speak about how they had tendered for & won contracts in the UK for the provision/maintenance of a network of rapid chargers in Coventry.
They had to compete commercially for this & are every much a proper commercial company, in the UK at least. They have 10 years of experience in the industry too.

ESB for the win .

It was a good presentation I though generally. Biggest disappointment again was the not unexpected, 4 to 5 year timeframe.
Should be complete at the same time as the national broadband plan & possibly brexit .

Is that not ESBi as opposed to Ecars?
Two different companies under the ESB umbrella.