Adding a third storey

decoob

Can anyone point me to an example in Dublin, or any town/city in Ireland, where planning permission has been approved to add a third floor to a 2 storey semi-detached or terraced house?

For example, the sort of thing mentioned in an article in the Journal "Running out of space? Add another floor to your house" (I can't post a URL as I'm a new user).

I've contacted the architect interviewed in this article, but no response.

It seems that an awful lot of the area of Dublin is occupied by two storey, semi detached houses. I've heard lots of reasonable arguments that Dublin should be more high-density, less car-focused, etc. I can't find any instance where someone has successfully added another storey to such a house though.

I understand that planning permission may be difficult to obtain, the actual construction may be tricky, and that it would be important to carefully consider neighbours and the environs.

do you own a semi D ?

Have you approached your neighbour about buying out their roof?
You could have a semi D on ground/first floor and be detached on the 2nd floor.

decoob

Thanks for the response.

I'm looking to buy at the moment. The only houses within my price range in Dublin are semi-detached, so I'm trying to figure out if this idea would be possible/likely.

Every house that I could afford would require more space, e.g. even for a second toilet/bathroom. I see so much "garden grabbing" though (I just came across this phrase) I'd prefer not to add to it by extending out the back.

> You could have a semi D on ground/first floor and be detached on the 2nd floor.
Yeah, if possible, I'd imagine this is what I'd like to do.

> ...buying out their roof?
Can you explain?

decoob

decoob wrote: »

> ...buying out their roof?
Can you explain?

Im winding you up:p

you'll never be allowed build up in a housing estate.convert the attic maybe but add a story,no way.

Gumbo

decoob wrote: »

Can anyone point me to an example in Dublin, or any town/city in Ireland, where planning permission has been approved to add a third floor to a 2 storey semi-detached or terraced house?

For example, the sort of thing mentioned in an article in the Journal "Running out of space? Add another floor to your house" (I can't post a URL as I'm a new user).

I've contacted the architect interviewed in this article, but no response.

It seems that an awful lot of the area of Dublin is occupied by two storey, semi detached houses. I've heard lots of reasonable arguments that Dublin should be more high-density, less car-focused, etc. I can't find any instance where someone has successfully added another storey to such a house though.

I understand that planning permission may be difficult to obtain, the actual construction may be tricky, and that it would be important to carefully consider neighbours and the environs.

I remember that article.
Its really a non runner in your typical residential estate.

Best you can hope for is an attic conversion with a dormer or maybe a hip to gable conversion.

decoob

> Im winding you up
I'm a bit slow today

> you'll never be allowed build up in a housing estate.convert the attic maybe but add a story,no way.
I'm not claiming that you're not right, but that's very disheartening.

A huge proportion of the houses in Dublin are 2 storey. And a huge proportion of these have a single storey extension out the back. It's pretty poor if the city is doomed to this layout for another 50 years, or however long, until large swaths are deemed derelict and are knocked en masse.

I'd like to confirm if there is really not a single instance of a 2 storey house having a storey added in Dublin?

charlietheminxx

I think the main reason you don't see it done (aside from planning permission etc.) is the sheer complexity of the job and the costs which would be involved. Financially, it probably isn't a viable thing to do.

sydthebeat

decoob wrote: »

> Im winding you up
I'm a bit slow today

> you'll never be allowed build up in a housing estate.convert the attic maybe but add a story,no way.
I'm not claiming that you're not right, but that's very disheartening.

A huge proportion of the houses in Dublin are 2 storey. And a huge proportion of these have a single storey extension out the back. It's pretty poor if the city is doomed to this layout for another 50 years, or however long, until large swaths are deemed derelict and are knocked en masse.

I'd like to confirm if there is really not a single instance of a 2 storey house having a storey added in Dublin?

you can contact the local authority and organise a "pre planning" meeting where you meet the planner before any official application, and chat through what issues there may be in the application.

being the first to try this in an established estate is where you may run into trouble.... the planners will have to assess how it looks visually to have one semi d obviously different than all others.

if you were the last house in a row of house, you might be able to argue some kind of "bookend" design

Metric Tensor

Structural capability of the existing walls and foundations to carry an additional floor may be an issue.

This combined with the more onerous fire regulations for three storey dwellings will make the process a very expensive undertaking even if you do get planning permission.

woohoo!!!

I'd have a lot of sympathy for this. There are some three storey dwellings in my estate, they look like semi d 2 storey with attic conversion, just the wall height and roof are a little higher, they were designed that way.

I also think the housing estate standard with 22 metre separation distance, 2 car parking spaces at the front, roads everywhere including around open spaces are outdated, and waste so much space. Higher density can readily be achieved by cutting out these often wasted spaces and still have conventional looking 2 storey and 3 storey designs.

decoob

Metric Tensor wrote: »

Structural capability of the existing walls and foundations to carry an additional floor may be an issue.

This combined with the more onerous fire regulations for three storey dwellings will make the process a very expensive undertaking even if you do get planning permission.

Thanks for the info. I'd obviously seek professional advice, but for bedtime reading, would you have a link to a document on the particular fire regulations? When searching for this there's a huge amount of material.

decoob

sydthebeat wrote: »

you can contact the local authority and organise a "pre planning" meeting where you meet the planner before any official application, and chat through what issues there may be in the application.

being the first to try this in an established estate is where you may run into trouble.... the planners will have to assess how it looks visually to have one semi d obviously different than all others.

if you were the last house in a row of house, you might be able to argue some kind of "bookend" design

Thanks for the tip re pre planning meeting.

Agree that a "bookend" situation might be more palatable to planners. To maintain consistency visually, I'd be happy to go with same rendering, same roof pitch, etc. I quite like the character of older estates around Dublin, and really wouldn't want to ruin this.

decoob

woohoo!!! wrote: »

I'd have a lot of sympathy for this. There are some three storey dwellings in my estate, they look like semi d 2 storey with attic conversion, just the wall height and roof are a little higher, they were designed that way.

I also think the housing estate standard with 22 metre separation distance, 2 car parking spaces at the front, roads everywhere including around open spaces are outdated, and waste so much space. Higher density can readily be achieved by cutting out these often wasted spaces and still have conventional looking 2 storey and 3 storey designs.

I know, I find it almost ridiculous that in 2019 new housing estates are being built at the outskirts of Dublin with this same layout.

Can I ask what estate this is? Or if you don't want to say this, would you have another example to show what it looks like?

Might be useful to have something to reference if talking to planners

TallGlass2

I actually wondered the opposite!

How easy would it to be to build down? Add in a basement, I know structurally it might be fairly complex. PP might be easier.

TheBoyConor

decoob wrote: »

until large swaths are deemed derelict and are knocked en masse.

That is not the way it works. If an estate is privately owned by homeowners that just isn't really possible.

However in the case of large social housing areas that has been done. The likes of Ballymun in Dublin and Moyross in Limerick and parks of Knocknaheeny in Cork have had this done.

As for extending a 2 storey semi d upwards to 3 stories, it really isn't practical to do. That is why you don't see.
Here are a few reasons-
1. It is going to be challenging to engineer it at a cost effective level. Even if the walls and foundations etc are capable of the loading (they probably are as concrete houses are quite a robust build) you will have a big challenge achieving a workable layout, installing new stairs etc in a way that doesn't involve substantially demolishing or altering the internal layout of the existing house.
Either way it is going to be damn expensive!
As mentioned above, the fire safety requirements of a 3 storey house mean that substantial upgrading of the rest of the house will be necessary, eg installing fire doors throughout and probably more.

Not impossible, but it will be impractical, expensive and really won't make a whole lot of sense to do.

2 Even if you do solve the egineering issues, you are most unlikely to get planning pemission.
Planners won't be keen on the resulting inconsistency between the buildings.
Neighbours are guaranteed to object. Expect a protracted battle with the neighbours and resident's association.

It's just not worth the hassle. If you need more space it is probably more cost effective to just buy or build a bigger house.

TheBoyConor

TallGlass2 wrote: »

I actually wondered the opposite!


How easy would it to be to build down? Add in a basement, I know structurally it might be fairly complex. PP might be easier.

Not easy. In fact, it would be practically impossible to make happen.

it wouldn't make any sense. I sure it could be done in theory and the engineering issues sorted out if you threw enough money at it but in practice it is nonsensical.

Think about it, you'd have to break out the floors and dig out the subfloor. What is going to support the foundation while this is taking place? you'd have to install piles of some sort or do some very creative and extensive underpinning.
And even then it is probable that you'll get some settlement of your and neighbours houses - claim! And for works like this you'd have to get consent under party wall legislation. good luck getting neighbours to agree to such risky work unless you give them a very generous danger fee or buy them out.

It would be cheaper (but still very expensive) to knock and rebuild the house with a basement. But if you are a semi-d, the risk of damage to the neighbouring building would be too great for it to make any practical sense.

If you have the money to be installing basements and piling specialists you are hardly going to be living in your typical suburban semi-D anyway sure.



Both of these ideas are complete flights of fancy. If you have the ample funds to throw at a pet project like this and actually make it happen, then you'd be far better off just buying a much bigger house.

TallGlass2

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Both of these ideas are complete flights of fancy. If you have the ample funds to throw at a pet project like this and actually make it happen, then you'd be far better off just buying a much bigger house.

Totally agree, as they say, if it was easy everyone would be doing it!

FishOnABike

https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/publications/files/technical_guidance_document_b_fire_safety_volume_2_dwelling_houses.pdf
and
https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/migrated-files/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad%2C1657%2Cen.pdf
should give you somewhere to start

Gumbo

decoob wrote: »

Thanks for the info. I'd obviously seek professional advice, but for bedtime reading, would you have a link to a document on the particular fire regulations? When searching for this there's a huge amount of material.

Technical Guidanace Document Part B (Fire Safety) Volume 2 - Dwelling Houses.

decoob

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Not easy. In fact, it would be practically impossible to make happen.

it wouldn't make any sense. I sure it could be done in theory and the engineering issues sorted out if you threw enough money at it but in practice it is nonsensical.

Think about it, you'd have to break out the floors and dig out the subfloor. What is going to support the foundation while this is taking place? you'd have to install piles of some sort or do some very creative and extensive underpinning.
And even then it is probable that you'll get some settlement of your and neighbours houses - claim! And for works like this you'd have to get consent under party wall legislation. good luck getting neighbours to agree to such risky work unless you give them a very generous danger fee or buy them out.

It would be cheaper (but still very expensive) to knock and rebuild the house with a basement. But if you are a semi-d, the risk of damage to the neighbouring building would be too great for it to make any practical sense.

If you have the money to be installing basements and piling specialists you are hardly going to be living in your typical suburban semi-D anyway sure.



Both of these ideas are complete flights of fancy. If you have the ample funds to throw at a pet project like this and actually make it happen, then you'd be far better off just buying a much bigger house.

Thanks for the info, appreciate it. Obviously, it would be easier to buy a bigger house, e.g. in a commuter town. There's more of an idealogical bent to exploring this option There are areas quite close to Dublin city centre, say Cabra, Kimmage, etc, that should have a higher population density, without eating into open space.

decoob

FishOnABike wrote: »

www.housing.gov.ie%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fpublic-consultation%2Ffiles%2F2016-06-28_draft_tgdb_vol_2_final_for_website.pdf
and
www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/migrated-files/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad%2C1657%2Cen.pdf
should give you somewhere to start

Great, thank you. The first link doesn't seem to work though?

Bdjsjsjs

decoob wrote: »

I know, I find it almost ridiculous that in 2019 new housing estates are being built at the outskirts of Dublin with this same layout.

Can I ask what estate this is? Or if you don't want to say this, would you have another example to show what it looks like?

Might be useful to have something to reference if talking to planners

I agree with you.
New semi detached houses have a much higher density and often have three stories via a dormer design. That been said dormers are a poor way to build a house. Large areas of inner surburbs (non historical important) could or should be demolished and replaced five stories blocks. It would help. Five stories is a nice number as it allows high density but doesn't require lifts, although building regs may demand them. Not sure.

FishOnABike

decoob wrote: »

Great, thank you. The first link doesn't seem to work though?

I've corrected the link, correct one is
https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/publications/files/technical_guidance_document_b_fire_safety_volume_2_dwelling_houses.pdf