Should I stop visiting his family?

The Young Wan

I am a native English speaker, and live in a country where English is not the lingua franca.

My boyfriend has a rather odd family situation. His parents are long term separated, but not divorced for tax purposes. He says they are often not in the best mood with each other, but still see each other at least every second weekend. On weekends his father is not in town, we still go to see the rest of his family -mother, brother, and brother's girlfriend.

When together, they speak German (the lingua franca.) His mother has English relatives and speaks it rather well, but doesn't speak English to/around me. I've asked why, boyfriend has said "she's self conscious about it." He says however that's an excuse for her not to, and there are several other excuses she employs.

Here's the rub: I don't speak very good German. I can't really join in the conversation easily, and I don't feel like I can initiate conversation very well. When I am in their company I often feel very excluded (there are other family rituals to which I am not party, which further make me feel excluded, but that's neither here nor there.) In fact his mother has said "I wouldn't be surprised if OP didn't come by anymore. It must be hard for her."

And it is. I often find myself dreading to go, and feeling drained when coming home when I do go. But. I do feel if I stop going, it will further drive a wedge in the relationship.

What do you suggest as a fair outcome? Is there a fair outcome? Should I stop visiting or come less often?

iamwhoiam

The best outcome is you learn the language of the country you live in . Make an effort and learn their language and don’t expect them all to learn yours

The Young Wan

iamwhoiam wrote: »

The best outcome is you learn the language of the country you live in . Make an effort and learn their language and don’t expect them all to learn yours

I have been, and am really trying hard to, but they speak a lot of bureaucratic German (They talk about work a lot, and work in a government job.)

I am trying. Really. I am. But I don't know if it's making any help.

iamwhoiam

The Young Wan wrote: »

I have been, and am really trying hard to, but they speak a lot of bureaucratic German (They talk about work a lot, and work in a government job.)

I am trying. Really. I am. But I don't know if it's making any help.

Well done for trying . Try watching kids TV , honestly you can learn a lot like that ! Make the effort to say a few more words every week and learn it like a child does from listening and just copying

B0jangles

Could everyone just speak their own language or would that be too weird? it sounds like you all have a good ability to understand each others language, but less ability or confidence in actually speaking it. I've had a few conversations where we each spoke our own language and it's a little stilted but communication was at least possible

The Young Wan

B0jangles wrote: »

Could everyone just speak their own language or would that be too weird?

Not sure I get the gist. As in I speak in English and they speak in German?

B0jangles

The Young Wan wrote: »

Not sure I get the gist. As in I speak in English and they speak in German?

Yes

If everything's very stiff and formal, it might not be possible, but it can work really well - I'm sure you understand spoken german which is far more complex than you'd feel able to produce yourself in a conversation, and they'd be in the same position.

joeguevara

When they come to yours is it different? Do you speak English to your family in front of them?

Maybe bring a board game to make interaction easier and maybe fun. Or suggest a film with subtitles so not to feel left out.

Stopping visiting is a bit extreme and will cause more issues.

The Young Wan

joeguevara wrote: »

When they come to yours is it different? Do you speak English to your family in front of them?

Maybe bring a board game to make interaction easier and maybe fun. Or suggest a film with subtitles so not to feel left out.

Stopping visiting is a bit extreme and will cause more issues.

With my family we speak English. His English is at c2 level, much more advanced than my German.

We also often speak Irish at home, but when he is around it's only English.

joeguevara

The Young Wan wrote: »

With my family we speak English. His English is at c2 level, much more advanced than my German.

We also often speak Irish at home, but when he is around it's only English.

I mean when his family visits.

The Young Wan

joeguevara wrote: »

I mean when his family visits.

OH. They don't visit us. We always go to them.

Because "its quite far away and they don't like to leave"

joeguevara

If you are learning German you will eventually master it and it won't be an issue. Maybe speak German more often with your husband more often to speed it up.

strandroad

It seems quite inconsiderate on your boyfriend's part to just drop you among them and not to translate. I was a guest in similar gatherings a few times and everyone who can will translate for the rest. Is it not very rude not to do that?

leggo

strandroad wrote: »

It seems quite inconsiderate on your boyfriend's part to just drop you among them and not to translate. I was a guest in similar gatherings a few times and everyone who can will translate for the rest. Is it not very rude not to do that?

Yeah, I was thinking the same. Even in all-English speaking situations, when you meet the family and are still getting to know them it's polite (and expected, for me at least) that the partner includes you, gives you context for stories, introduces things you could have in common with them etc. It's fairly basic social etiquette. Here it sounds like your partner is just hanging you out to dry.

joeguevara

leggo wrote: »

Yeah, I was thinking the same. Even in all-English speaking situations, when you meet the family and are still getting to know them it's polite (and expected, for me at least) that the partner includes you, gives you context for stories, introduces things you could have in common with them etc. It's fairly basic social etiquette. Here it sounds like your partner is just hanging you out to dry.

The OP hasn't complained about her husband so it could be when he's not there.

Speak to your husband and see if there is a way you could be included more. Perhaps more one on one's as crowds may be more difficult.

LuciX

joeguevara wrote: »

The OP hasn't complained about her husband so it could be when he's not there.

Speak to your husband and see if there is a way you could be included more. Perhaps more one on one's as crowds may be more difficult.

He is not a husband :rolleyes:
Nor partner :rolleyes:

He is simply a boyfriend (as she wrote)

Stop visiting is extreme.

Take a hard look in the mirror (thank God every day for what you have) and be honest with yourself.

How will you feel if he goes? Plenty more fish in the sea and all that but can you catch one? :pac:

You have been living in Germany for a number of years now.

Perhaps they know it and expect you to be at a more advanced stage in the learning process? That's not an unreasonable expectation.

do you want to visit them?

i mean, that's a starting point!

joeguevara

SuperunknownX wrote: »

He is not a husband :rolleyes:
Nor partner :rolleyes:

He is simply a boyfriend (as she wrote)

Stop visiting is extreme.

Take a hard look in the mirror (thank God every day for what you have) and be honest with yourself.

How will you feel if he goes? Plenty more fish in the sea and all that but can you catch one? :pac:

You have been living in Germany for a number of years now.

Perhaps they know it and expect you to be at a more advanced stage in the learning process? That's not an unreasonable expectation.

Apologies. I missed that. It really depends how serious it is. If an early relationship then not visiting is fine. If it's serious then discuss with your boyfriend how it can be made better.

If your boyfriend won't help then that speaks volumes.

It is interesting that they won't visit you. Do you believe the too far reason?

ILoveYourVibes

My friend is Russian married to a cantonese speaker ...neither of them speak the other's language ..she lived with his parents for three years the mother never learnt english ..my friend never learnt cantonese ...they could never speak verbally..but they got on still.

Find another way to communicate.

It will be good for them. Particularly if they are used to 'bureaucratic' conversation ..it will loosen them up.

Augme

I'd stop going. By the sounds of it, you visit every weekend. Do yous not have other things you'd want to do? Personally there is much better things I'd want to do on my weekends. Live can be short and time can be precious, you should start valuing your own free time more and stop doing things with it that you hate.

splinter65

The Young Wan wrote: »

I have been, and am really trying hard to, but they speak a lot of bureaucratic German (They talk about work a lot, and work in a government job.)

I am trying. Really. I am. But I don't know if it's making any help.

German is the language of the household so if you don’t want to feel left out you’ll have to practice your German more in between visits. There’s no reason for any of them to struggle with English when they want to chat away as families do.

Ursus Horribilis

Why don't you speak better German if you're living there? Have you no German friends? Why is your boyfriend so tied to his family? Going home every weekend sounds unhealthy to me, especially if he has a girlfriend.

tara73

I can read between the lines you don't like them. Personally, I mean. Probably you have your reasons and I think the language barrier is your subconcious excuse to avoid them or express your wish to not go there anymore. I think they make you feel uncomfortable in general?

Germans can be quite rude and direct in general from the perspective of other cultures. they are just not aware and don't see it as such because they don't know any other behaviour, especially if they never lived abroad.

I recommend you just go if it's really necessary, say for an important birthday, wedding, or the odd occasion like once every two month or even less. They probably don't mind at all if you don't have that much conversation going on with them anyway. You're probably overthinking this or is your boyfriend pressuring you to come along?

Ursus Horribilis

If you're visiting his family so often, you've more than likely worn out your welcome. It is probably as wearing for your boyfriend's family to entertain you every weekend as it is for you. Going by your other threads on boards, I get the impression you may have assertiveness issues. It's high time you stood up for yourself here and stood on your own two feet. If you don't want to be visiting your boyfriend's family every weekend, then don't go. Accompanying him every now and then is fine. But every single weekend or second weekend? Nope.

Why do you go? Is it because you'd be sitting on your own, bored if you didn't? Does he pressure you into accompanying him? Do you not feel stifled?
Do you and your boyfriend ever have weekends to yourselves? What sort of lives do you have outside of this relationship?

The Young Wan

The getting together every weekend is just something that they do. I have no idea why it's every weekend, I've never asked. I've been told by my boyfriend I don't have to go, but the family like when I'm there and like to see me. I have trouble believing it when they don't include me in conversations, engage with me etc, but apparently it's so. I also feel like if I don't go, I will further drive a rift between me and them. I like them, and want to have a good relationship with my in-laws, but it's hard for me to feel included. His brother's he also goes every weekend ti visit, but she works in the same business as them, speaks the language, and has a complicated relationship with her own family - I've never met her mother, but apparently she can be overbearing. So I guess I also feel a bit of "well, if Mary has to go I have to go too."

What do we do outside of our relationship? We both work, he goes to the gym a lot, I'm not as fitness enthused. I see my friends when I can, he also.

Do we ever have weekends to ourselves? Not really, Unless we have already planned something is on. As I said, he seems his family every weekend- I asked him once why he goes, and he said "because I guess if I didn't my Mam would be upset or mad." I kind of get the feeling she is a little lonely and needs the company.

Why do I not speak better German? Beats me. Boyfriend and friends say in the 2.5 years I've been here it's improved significantly, but also I can be a little critcal on myself. I would say I have b1-B2 level German, I work in German so I have that chance to improve every day. But I guess it would be like if my boyfriend came home with me and myself and my parents spoke only about the intricacies of the Dept of Ed- my parents are/were both teachers.

Do I hate these people? No. I actually would love to have a relationship with them, but I have some very strong insecurities about my place in the family.

isohon

iamwhoiam wrote: »

The best outcome is you learn the language of the country you live in . Make an effort and learn their language and don’t expect them all to learn yours

That is unnecessarily harsh. The OP clearly explained that they can speak some German but that it is not sufficient for full fluid conversation. That is something that can take years, and comes much more difficultly for some. The OP clearly tries to participate in conversation, I don't think it is unreasonable for the Mother and GF make an effort to occasionally speak in English, for instance if the topic is particularly complicated they could at least use some English to help the OP along.

Augme

There's no way I could handle going out with someone who had that sort of relationship with their family. But if you can, more power to you. Also, how much alone time do yous have together? If you work, he has his gym, you want to see your friends, he has to see his family etc etc when do yous get a chance to do stuff together and how often does that happen? Also, are you genuinely happy in this relationship or are you just happy because you are in a relationship? As I said, for me there is little positive I would get from a relationship like this when I scratch away from the surface.

isohon

The Young Wan wrote: »

The getting together every weekend is just something that they do. I have no idea why it's every weekend, I've never asked. I've been told by my boyfriend I don't have to go, but the family like when I'm there and like to see me. I have trouble believing it when they don't include me in conversations, engage with me etc, but apparently it's so. I also feel like if I don't go, I will further drive a rift between me and them. I like them, and want to have a good relationship with my in-laws, but it's hard for me to feel included. His brother's he also goes every weekend ti visit, but she works in the same business as them, speaks the language, and has a complicated relationship with her own family - I've never met her mother, but apparently she can be overbearing. So I guess I also feel a bit of "well, if Mary has to go I have to go too."

What do we do outside of our relationship? We both work, he goes to the gym a lot, I'm not as fitness enthused. I see my friends when I can, he also.

Do we ever have weekends to ourselves? Not really, Unless we have already planned something is on. As I said, he seems his family every weekend- I asked him once why he goes, and he said "because I guess if I didn't my Mam would be upset or mad." I kind of get the feeling she is a little lonely and needs the company.

Why do I not speak better German? Beats me. Boyfriend and friends say in the 2.5 years I've been here it's improved significantly, but also I can be a little critcal on myself. I would say I have b1-B2 level German, I work in German so I have that chance to improve every day. But I guess it would be like if my boyfriend came home with me and myself and my parents spoke only about the intricacies of the Dept of Ed- my parents are/were both teachers.

Do I hate these people? No. I actually would love to have a relationship with them, but I have some very strong insecurities about my place in the family.

OP, I don't really understand the reaction you've received from many in this thread.

Have you tried to express to your in-laws the way you feel? Framing it particularly in terms of your desire to get to know them, your frustration that your own German hasn't quite advanced to the point where you feel completely comfortable understanding and being understood in the fast paced family chat environment?

I think some others have said you will have to try and improve your conversational German. You say you work in German, but do you listen to the radio in German, TV in German? Do you have a group of German colleagues you could ask to and advance your German?

Is there confidence issue here? Full disclosure, I have pretty good German, can read whole, adult articles with relative ease but my confidence in listening is completely disastrous. My mind panics and it just basically shuts down.

Ursus Horribilis

Going to visit less often isn't going to drive a rift between you and his family. It's utterly nuts that you're visiting so often. You and them could do with seeing less of each other. They might make more of an effort to include you if you come less often. It might make someone stop and consider how you feel.

isohon

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

Going to visit less often isn't going to drive a rift between you and his family. It's utterly nuts that you're visiting so often. You and them could do with seeing less of each other. They might make more of an effort to include you if you come less often. It might make someone stop and consider how you feel.

Have to disagree, mildly. It is pretty clear, to me at least, that this is a very close family. If the OP is the only one who suddenly stops showing up during their regular visits its inevitably going to put her on the outside. Not saying that is fair or right, but its just reality.

The Young Wan

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

They might make more of an effort to include you if you come less often. It might make someone stop and consider how you feel.

I'd like to hope that is so, but I don't see it being the outcome IMO. BF has often said to them I feel a little left out in the conversation, but he said his mother's reaction was "Yeah I imagine so. I wish there was something we could do."

strandroad

isohon wrote: »

That is unnecessarily harsh. The OP clearly explained that they can speak some German but that it is not sufficient for full fluid conversation. That is something that can take years, and comes much more difficultly for some. The OP clearly tries to participate in conversation, I don't think it is unreasonable for the Mother and GF make an effort to occasionally speak in English, for instance if the topic is particularly complicated they could at least use some English to help the OP along.

They don't even need to switch to English, if OP has German good enough for work all they need to do is be more considerate in their conversation in German. Speak a little slower, use more basic phrases, make sure they don't veer into specialist topics, finally keep including her on the side if their mainstream conversation becomes too much. It's only basic good manners, and if the family is not willing to be welcoming I'm afraid there is a hidden meaning to it.

Ursus Horribilis

isohon wrote: »

Have to disagree, mildly. It is pretty clear, to me at least, that this is a very close family. If the OP is the only one who suddenly stops showing up during their regular visits its inevitably going to put her on the outside. Not saying that is fair or right, but its just reality.

We'll have to agree to disagree I have no problem with people staying in touch with their families but having to go to them every single weekend would be a deal breaker for me. I feel stifled just reading this thread

tara73

ok, regarding your last, longer post with clarifications I think the onus is on you then.

I don't really understand your problems with learning the language I have to say. Your boyfriend is german and it's the best way or chance to learn a language with all it's facets and little sayings you won't learn in many courses. Do you speak german with him? You should.

And seriously, maybe you don't have to follow or understand every detail the family discusses about their job, politics or whatever they discuss. I still think you are too sensitive here, being hard on yourself and the others, maybe you have too high expectations in general?

facehugger99

Stop visiting so often - every second weekend is crazy.

Once every couple of months would be loads.

screamer

Ah well my MIL and husband just talk about the local gossip when we visit. I don’t know any of the people they talk about and I’m quite excluded from participating in any meaningful way. They speak English BTW so it’s not a language barrier. For me, it’s her way to control things, and local gossip is about the only commonality they have left. I learned years ago to stop trying, so when we visit, once they take off gossiping, I read a paper or a book. It doesn’t bother me anymore, I just figured out the game, maybe you need to do likewise.

isohon

strandroad wrote: »

They don't even need to switch to English, if OP has German good enough for work all they need to do is be more considerate in their conversation in German. Speak a little slower, use more basic phrases, make sure they don't veer into specialist topics, finally keep including her on the side if their mainstream conversation becomes too much.

Precisely my point, and the reason I am perplexed by alot of the reaction on this thread. I would never carry on a conversation in front of someone who is ostensibly involved in the conversation in a way that precluded someone from engaging. This doesn't even have to be a cross-lingual matter. There are many people one may come across daily who speak native English who may not have the same fluency as one does. You are a prick, IMHO, if you fail to recognize and then accommodate them. It is just basic manners.

strandroad wrote: »

It's only basic good manners, and if the family is not willing to be welcoming I'm afraid there is a hidden meaning to it.

Perhaps. But I rather not engage with that thought given everything the OP has said. It seems like an ignorant action the family are willing to indulge in. Perhaps because they don't yet understand just how negatively it is affecting the OP.

ILoveYourVibes

I mean if he goes every weekend ..that is fine. You don't have to go every weekend. Unless you want to.

I think once every two months would be normal. My brother would visit my parents every second weekend ..but his gf has not ever met them yet once.

Then when you do meet them just be nice and polite. Every little issue can't be this big sit down talk thing.

seamus

The Young Wan wrote: »

Do we ever have weekends to ourselves? Not really, Unless we have already planned something is on. As I said, he seems his family every weekend- I asked him once why he goes, and he said "because I guess if I didn't my Mam would be upset or mad." I kind of get the feeling she is a little lonely and needs the company.

She's not lonely, she's a matriarch.

She calls the shots, she decides what her family does and how they do it, and she guilts her children into doing things by being "upset" when they have a mind of their own.

This to me would fit very well with her not making an effort to include you in conversation. You're an add-on. Her son's girlfriend. It is up to you to make an effort to please her, it is not up to her to include you. Comments about her not being surprised if you stopped coming are a snide way of saying that she's not sure if you fit in the family. And because she's the matriarch, only she decides if someone is the right "fit" for the family.

It wouldn't surprise me if her control freakery is the reason her marriage ended.

There's not a massive amount that you can do here except to take control over your own time. Your boyfriend is going to do what he's been raised to do. All you can do is try and encourage a little change.

My advice would be to change your visits to every second weekend. Or one a month. Set up your routine so that you're less available on the weekends. Let your boyfriend head off if he wants to, but make it clear that you'd love for him to stay there with you.

Book the odd trip away - with him. Give the opportunity to see that the sky doesn't fall in when he doesn't go home at the weekend. His mother won't be lonely; doesn't she have other children and ex-spouses who are always visiting?

Ultimately if his relationship with his mother remains so joined at the hip, then you have to consider the future. Do you really want to spend the next X years fighting for some attention at the weekends? Looking for a quiet night in watching TV, but he insists that he has to go to his mother?
Do you want a wedding where his family speak only within themselves in German? Do you want his mother to be constantly complaining that she only gets to see her grandchildren one weekend a month and that you should be packing the whole family into the car every weekend? When you visit will be happy that she only speaks to you in German, no matter how well your comprehension might become?

Do you see yourself living in Germany for the rest of your life? Because I bet you any money that he does his mother won't let him emigrate.

ILoveYourVibes

seamus wrote: »

She's not lonely, she's a matriarch.

She calls the shots, she decides what her family does and how they do it, and she guilts her children into doing things by being "upset" when they have a mind of their own.

Someone who does that IS very lonely. And has a fear of being alone and abandoned. Someone like that fears being left and feels worthless they don't feel they are worthy of being with without control.

I guess they need a combination of firm boundaries along with reassurance that she won't ever be left alone she is a part of the family people will be there for her because they want to be. But that boundaries are needed to.

I suppose telling her is no good. Perhaps she won't accept it that way. But if your behavior is like that ..and demonstrates that ..i find people have an easier time accepting it.

Ursus Horribilis

Controlling and lonely can be two sides of the same coin. Seamus raised some valid points here which I think you should give some consideration to. What are your long-term plans? If you continue in a relationship with your boyfriend, you won't be coming back to Ireland. Lonely/controlling mammy will see to that. The question also needs to be asked about where he sees himself living in a few years time. If he's still so tightly bound to his family, does he foresee himself moving back home. Would you be OK with living in bosom of this tight-knit family?

Should you continue to live where you are now and you have kids, how will you cope? Will it be those endless weekend treks back to his home place with a baby in tow?

joeguevara

No couple needs to see parents every weekend. And I mean none.

You have drip fed information but at the end of the day you don't enjoy going there and wouldn't it be better if you spent the days with your bf. From your description ye don't spend a lot of time with each Other. And why is he going to his parents every weekend?

Do ye want to spend time alone?

LegacyUser

I wouldn't stop going OP but I would stop going every single weekend. Honestly that is just too much. If the brothers GF goes every weekend thats her choice. I don't have an issue with your OH going every weekend but I wouldn't expect a partner to go. How far away are they? Are you staying overnight or is it just a meal you are meeting up for? If its an overnight thing that would really stress me out regardless of language issues as its the whole weekend gone and you've go work during the week - when do you have time to do anything else like clean, wash clothes etc etc If it's just for the afternoon thats a little more bearable but I'd still only be going every two weeks at most.

As for the language thing, its all well and good telling the OP to get better but that takes time, meanwhile I find it very rude that you are being told the family want you to come and then proceed to have conversations that are too difficult for you to understand and even if you did sounds like you'd have little interest in anyway. Similar to yourself OP I live in my partners country and don't have full grasp of the language but he's family and friends make sure to explain things to me and have helped me improve.

zapper55

Leaving aside the German for a second, I think its incredibly rude that they talk about their work all night. Think it only confirms that they are trying to put you off going. If I went to my parents for dinner with a partner and they spoke about work all night and it was a pattern I wouldnt be long saying it to them. But they'd never make.someone feel that unwelcome in the first place.

Your partner sounds completely crap in this situation. Is he always this passive? And if there was a disagreement between you and his mother for some reason you could be fairly sure he'd back her. Is this what you want for your life?

pinkyeye

Okay, lets reverse the situation here.

If OP lived in Ireland with their German partner would all of the OP's family speak German in a social situation??

I don't bleeding thing so. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

joeguevara

pinkyeye wrote: »

Okay, lets reverse the situation here.

If OP lived in Ireland with their German partner would all of the OP's family speak German in a social situation??

I don't bleeding thing so. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Exactly. And if someone visited my house every weekend it would get grating. There is only so much niceties one can endure before you just want to relax and not have to entertain.

seamus

pinkyeye wrote: »

Okay, lets reverse the situation here.

If OP lived in Ireland with their German partner would all of the OP's family speak German in a social situation??

I don't bleeding thing so. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

If they could all speak German and the partner struggled with English, then yeah I'd say they would speak German, at least some of the time.

At the very least my experience in Ireland is that we go out of our way to talk simpler English (sometimes unnecessarily) when in the company of non-English speakers.

What the OP describes isn't a cultural thing, but just people being rude. But I do agree with Joe in that having to include non-native speakers in the conversation can be quite tiring, especially if their fluency is poor.

isohon

pinkyeye wrote: »

Okay, lets reverse the situation here.

If OP lived in Ireland with their German partner would all of the OP's family speak German in a social situation??

I don't bleeding thing so. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

I don't think the OP has asked, or expects the whole family to speak English in all situations where she is present. I think she is expressing frustration at the fact that she is in an undesirable situation, it has different facets. A. She doesn't have the lingual ability to converse freely as she likes. B. Because she, to date, the expectation and experience has been that she attend these weekly get togethers. C. she is feeling stuck because, in spite of raising how she feels those around her have offered no way to remedy it.

I've said it before, but I find the reaction to the OP in this thread to be a bit bizarre.

osarusan

Don't go there as often, and continue to improve your German but for your own sake.

It may be separate or connected, but your boyfriend doesn't need to go there every weekend either.

As somebody said, try to organise a weekend away, see how he reacts to that. See if he will say he can't go because he 'has to' visit his mother.