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VRT appeal advice

  • 24-10-2019 11:32pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 4,213 PrettyBoy


    With regard to making a VRT appeal, when you plead your case, give examples of similar cars on the market and give an estimate of what you think the car should have been valued at, is it a case of you having to specifically state the figure they'll refund or do they use their own discretion?

    Let's just say the VRT valued the car at €20,000. In one scenario I make an appeal and say I believe it's worth €18,500 - they might say OK, fair enough and refund me €1500. In another scenario, what if I said I believe it's worth €17,000? Would they say no way, appeal refused, case closed - or would they say they disagree, but based on the evidence given they would be willing to offer a different refund amount to the one I suggested (ie. €1650 instead of €3000) - anyone know?

    I'm writing up the letter now and just wanted to ask before I finish it off. This is the first time I've done this, so anyone that's been through this before, any tips or advice of any kind would be much appreciated.


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 5 Tinman22


    You only pay vrt on a percentage of the value , as per co2 emissions base's .
    If revenue valued your car at €20000 and it fell in 18% bracket that would be vrt of €3600 , if you can prove a value of €17000 vrt due would be €3060
    This would only be a rebate best case scenario of €540 not really spending much time arguing about in my opinion


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Tinman22 wrote: »
    This would only be a rebate best case scenario of €540 not really spending much time arguing about in my opinion

    €540 of your own money, after you’ve paid your taxes to end up with that to pay out as another tax is not worth arguing about?

    I suppose the oul’ recession really is a distant memory for some. Aside from that laughable comment, the rest of your advice is sound.

    OP, if there’s €540 or so of your hard earned at stake, stick with it and best of luck with the refund and the new jammer.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,213 PrettyBoy


    Tinman22 wrote: »
    You only pay vrt on a percentage of the value , as per co2 emissions base's .
    If revenue valued your car at €20000 and it fell in 18% bracket that would be vrt of €3600 , if you can prove a value of €17000 vrt due would be €3060
    This would only be a rebate best case scenario of €540 not really spending much time arguing about in my opinion

    It's in the 34% or 36% bracket, can't remember which. In any case, I get out of bed and do a full days work for a lot less than €540 every day so I'd be more than happy to spend an hour writing a letter for it!

    So, if I suggested a somewhat lowballed figure would the VRT use their discretion and make a counter offer so to speak, or would they just point blank reject the entire appeal?


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,051 ✭✭✭✭ Del2005


    PrettyBoy wrote: »
    With regard to making a VRT appeal, when you plead your case, give examples of similar cars on the market and give an estimate of what you think the car should have been valued at, is it a case of you having to specifically state the figure they'll refund or do they use their own discretion?

    Let's just say the VRT valued the car at €20,000. In one scenario I make an appeal and say I believe it's worth €18,500 - they might say OK, fair enough and refund me €1500. In another scenario, what if I said I believe it's worth €17,000? Would they say no way, appeal refused, case closed - or would they say they disagree, but based on the evidence given they would be willing to offer a different refund amount to the one I suggested (ie. €1650 instead of €3000) - anyone know?

    I'm writing up the letter now and just wanted to ask before I finish it off. This is the first time I've done this, so anyone that's been through this before, any tips or advice of any kind would be much appreciated.

    You need to provide 3, or more, ads showing what similar cars are going for here. They will use this as the value not a number you pick. If you can't provide any ads then your appeal will be rejected.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,167 ✭✭✭ quenching


    PrettyBoy wrote: »
    With regard to making a VRT appeal, when you plead your case, give examples of similar cars on the market and give an estimate of what you think the car should have been valued at, is it a case of you having to specifically state the figure they'll refund or do they use their own discretion?

    Let's just say the VRT valued the car at €20,000. In one scenario I make an appeal and say I believe it's worth €18,500 - they might say OK, fair enough and refund me €1500. In another scenario, what if I said I believe it's worth €17,000? Would they say no way, appeal refused, case closed - or would they say they disagree, but based on the evidence given they would be willing to offer a different refund amount to the one I suggested (ie. €1650 instead of €3000) - anyone know?

    I'm writing up the letter now and just wanted to ask before I finish it off. This is the first time I've done this, so anyone that's been through this before, any tips or advice of any kind would be much appreciated.



    I've been through the appeals process last year, don't be at all surprised if they simply reject your appeal in the first instance, but if you believe you are in the right (and are using the EXACT model car with similar mileage) then you should persevere, and if needed take it to the Tax Appeals Commissioner. I've copied some of my replies to similar queries below:

    To answer your query simply, give them at least 3 examples of the same model car (the EXACT same) with similar mileage and condition. They will then calculate a figure, they won't just accept your calculations. But don't be surprised if they refuse your appeal, they refused mine and mine they were VERY clearly wrong. I won in the end.
    Its simple enough, the process is outlined here:
    https://www.revenue.ie/en/importing-...als/index.aspx
    You must pay whatever VRT is initially calculated by Revenue.
    You then lodge a first stage appeal to the Revenue VRT Unit. Give some examples from reputable garages of cars of the same model and similar mileages. You may get a refund at this stage but apparently, mostly they refuse.
    You then have 30 days to lodge a second stage appeal with the Tax Appeals Commissioner. Here you really just copy/paste your reasoning given to the Revenue VRT Unit. Note that the TAC are seriously understaffed at the moment and very difficult to contact, phones/emails go unanswered but persistence will get you there. I had to contact the office of the Minister for Finance to give TAC a nudge. Once you can get hold of them they are extremely helpful.
    Once TAC receive your second stage appeal they inform Revenue who have 30 days to respond. They seem prompt to respond and if your case is legitimate they then appear fair enough. But why the first stage refusal?
    Revenue will then either refuse your second stage appeal and refer it back to the TAC or offer a recalculation of VRT.
    In my first stage appeal, I pointed out to Revenue the anomalies in the VRT calculator (listing several BHP variants of the same model when they're all really the same) as well as the excessive valuation. In my second stage appeal, I just went with the valuation.

    I'm going to accept the current refund offer, so we'll see how long it takes Revenue to issue the cheque.

    And...
    Just to update the VRT aspect. I appealed the initial VRT amount of €1846 to the Revenue VRT unit and it was flatly rejected without any explanation of how they arrived at their valuation, just a statement saying that it had been reviewed recently and the amount was correct. So I lodged a second stage appeal to the Tax Appeals Commisioner, this is easier said than done as they are virtually impossible to get hold of, but I persevered and eventually got to speak to a very helpful chap. I sent details outlined my reasoning that the initial Revenue VRT calculation was excessive and gave a few examples of similar cars for sale, I reckoned I should have paid about €1220 and that they owed me about €600. Today I got a letter from Revenue outlining very similar examples of cars for sale to the ones I submitted and asking if I would accept a refund of about €540 or have the matter referred back to the Tax Appeals Commissioner. Their valuation had changed from approx €25k to approx €22k. It’s probably not worth the effort of perusing it further for the sake of €60 so I think I’ll just accept the refund.

    So, in this case being a stubborn sod has paid off!

    Revenue issused a refund cheque promptly, I hope this helps.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,240 ✭✭✭✭ Cee-Jay-Cee


    You provide the data to support your appeal, Revenue decide if they accept that and refund you the excess. They will only use what ever you supply them and do their own investigations so there is no point in supplying advertisements etc showing that the car is selling elsewhere for €18000 and at the same time saying you think its only worth €17000 as you have not provided anything to support that figure.


  • Registered Users Posts: 50,125 ✭✭✭✭ bazz26


    The VRT appeal success rate is quite good so once you have some good evidence ie adverts of similar cars for sale here then you should get something back. It's certainly worth trying anyway as worst case if are unsuccessful, you will be in the same position you are as if you didn't appeal it. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,569 ✭✭✭ cpoh1


    Del2005 wrote: »
    You need to provide 3, or more, ads showing what similar cars are going for here. They will use this as the value not a number you pick. If you can't provide any ads then your appeal will be rejected.


    Thats not true. I have successfully appealed my last two imports and didnt have 3 examples, i had one in one case and 2 in another. I gave my own estimation on the value of the car based on the overall condition and mechanical work required (new gearbox)and crash history both backed up by an engineers report and my value was accepted.

    E.G.

    Market value: 10,000
    Value of my car: 7,000 (10,000-2,000 for gearbox and 1,000 depreciation due to crash history)

    Its definitely worth appealing every time!


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,213 PrettyBoy


    Thanks lads for all the helpful posts, and quenching for the detailed reply on the process. This now brings me to my next question, related to the following point:
    quenching wrote: »
    I've been through the appeals process last year, don't be at all surprised if they simply reject your appeal in the first instance, but if you believe you are in the right (and are using the EXACT model car with similar mileage).

    This is a bit of an issue. There are no exact models of the car I bought for sale in Ireland. The closest examples I can find are of the slightly lesser model with similar mileage and the years are slightly older and slightly newer, none exactly the same as mine.

    Let's say I've bought a '2009 Porsche 911 Carrera S' - there are none for sale in Ireland. The closest I can find are 3 of the standard 'Porsche 911 Carrera', 2 of them are 2008 and one of them is 2011 - so the only examples I have in Ireland are of the normal 'Carrera' and none exactly the same as my 'Carrera S' - can these be used in an appeal?


  • Registered Users Posts: 50,125 ✭✭✭✭ bazz26


    I don't think you can do that as your not comparing like for like. If you are appealing on the grounds that revenue's value of a 2009 911 is too high then you need to prove that other examples of a 2009 911 are selling for less. While the appeals process is highly successful your not going to win just because you submit an appeal. In saying that if a few 2011 911 are selling for the same value as Revenue put on a 2009 it's certainly worth using that argument on those grounds.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 717 ✭✭✭ bs2014


    How long does it take to find out once post off. My VRT went up 200e the day before I brought for testing. They seemingly deleted the cheaper stat code and assigned a new more dearer stat code to my car or something. My argument is I had the car booked 2 weeks and this was the earliest date I could get booked in (OMSP is actually still low so cant argue this point)


  • Registered Users Posts: 717 ✭✭✭ bs2014


    Just rechecked the stat code, it has gone up a further 300e in the last week. Thats 500e increase in 2 weeks Robbing revenue c##ts


  • Registered Users Posts: 670 ✭✭✭ RIALTO1


    How did the OP get on with this? I am in a similar position so looking for any hints.

    I had thought to try and use the new prices for similar cars as a reference (e.g. an Audi A4 s-line new is X, and now selling for Y, so if an A4 Sport new is X-z, then it's current value should be less than Y, if that makes sense).


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,213 PrettyBoy


    RIALTO1 wrote: »
    How did the OP get on with this?

    Not a whole lot to report. I've been discouraged to use similar 'lower' models for reference as they are not like for like so this has stalled my progress. There's only one similar car for sale in Ireland at the moment so now I'm considering asking a dealer or two if they will do a valuation on the car. I contacted the main dealer here and they don't do them which is what I expected to be fair.

    Has anyone here ever used an independent dealer to value a car for VRT appeal purposes?


  • Registered Users Posts: 717 ✭✭✭ bs2014


    PrettyBoy wrote: »
    Not a whole lot to report. I've been discouraged to use similar 'lower' models for reference as they are not like for like so this has stalled my progress. There's only one similar car for sale in Ireland at the moment so now I'm considering asking a dealer or two if they will do a valuation on the car. I contacted the main dealer here and they don't do them which is what I expected to be fair.

    Has anyone here ever used an independent dealer to value a car for VRT appeal purposes?

    Folks what's the address for the appeals. Getting conflicting info from the page I got at nct and the vrt site! Cheers


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,340 ✭✭✭ ErinGoBrath


    bs2014 wrote: »
    Folks what's the address for the appeals. Getting conflicting info from the page I got at nct and the vrt site! Cheers

    I went with the address on the website, not the info sheet from the vrt office.

    Some info on my successful appeal. Current OMSP was about 4k too high, I had evidence of this from car sites in Ireland and printed these out to go in the appeal pack. 1 exact match and two higher HP models.

    I'd also included some small repairs that needed to be done and an estimate for each, totaling 1k.

    4 weeks later I received a letter saying the appeal was successful and they quoted an amount approx 90% of what I was looking for. I was happy enough to leave it at that, money was in my account in a matter of days. They use your revenue details, no need to provide.

    Happy to supply the letter if anyone wants to use it as a template. PM me

    Defo worth taking time to go through this process.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,213 PrettyBoy


    Happy to supply the letter if anyone wants to use it as a template. PM me.

    PM sent.


  • Registered Users Posts: 670 ✭✭✭ RIALTO1


    I went with the address on the website, not the info sheet from the vrt office.

    Some info on my successful appeal. Current OMSP was about 4k too high, I had evidence of this from car sites in Ireland and printed these out to go in the appeal pack. 1 exact match and two higher HP models.

    I'd also included some small repairs that needed to be done and an estimate for each, totaling 1k.

    4 weeks later I received a letter saying the appeal was successful and they quoted an amount approx 90% of what I was looking for. I was happy enough to leave it at that, money was in my account in a matter of days. They use your revenue details, no need to provide.

    Happy to supply the letter if anyone wants to use it as a template. PM me

    Defo worth taking time to go through this process.

    PM sent, cheers


  • Registered Users Posts: 17 Podge1972


    I went with the address on the website, not the info sheet from the vrt office.

    Some info on my successful appeal. Current OMSP was about 4k too high, I had evidence of this from car sites in Ireland and printed these out to go in the appeal pack. 1 exact match and two higher HP models.

    I'd also included some small repairs that needed to be done and an estimate for each, totaling 1k.

    4 weeks later I received a letter saying the appeal was successful and they quoted an amount approx 90% of what I was looking for. I was happy enough to leave it at that, money was in my account in a matter of days. They use your revenue details, no need to provide.

    Happy to supply the letter if anyone wants to use it as a template. PM me

    Defo worth taking time to go through this process.


    Hi Erin

    Would it be possible to Pm me this also

    Thanks in advance

    P


  • Registered Users Posts: 717 ✭✭✭ bs2014


    Posted mine over 2 weeks ago but havent heard anything. Seemingly they send you a confirmation letter to acknowledge receiving letter?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,340 ✭✭✭ ErinGoBrath


    bs2014 wrote: »
    Posted mine over 2 weeks ago but havent heard anything. Seemingly they send you a confirmation letter to acknowledge receiving letter?

    I didn't get ack letter. Received decision letter 4 weeks after submitting


  • Registered Users Posts: 187 ✭✭ newmammy2011


    Hi Eringobrath,
    Would you mind sending me template also.
    Thanks!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1 davedoo


    Hi ErinGoBrath

    any chance you could send me a copy of that letter too .... thanks in advnce



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