Portlaoise, the midlands city.

Stan27

We need a midlands city.
An strong economic area to attract companies from Dublin.
The reason I choose portloaise is of its central location and more importantly, the motorways that directly goes to Dublin, cork and limerick.
Also it would be great as it isn’t beside the sea, it as a 360 access.
It would need a huge investment, especially quicker access from Tullamore/Carlow/ Kilkenny directions.
Start off with investing in the town, tidy it up a bit, invest in sports clubs etc. but ,mainly building large business parks like beside Dublin airport (ballycoolin).
In my opining we really need to do something to help rural midlands Ireland.

Agree/ disagree ?

Thank you

KaneToad

Stan27 wrote: »

We need a midlands city.
An strong economic area to attract companies from Dublin.
The reason I choose portloaise is of its central location and more importantly, the motorways that directly goes to Dublin, cork and limerick.
Also it would be great as it isn’t beside the sea, it as a 360 access.
It would need a huge investment, especially quicker access from Tullamore/Carlow/ Kilkenny directions.
Start off with investing in the town, tidy it up a bit, invest in sports clubs etc. but ,mainly building large business parks like beside Dublin airport (ballycoolin).
In my opining we really need to do something to help rural midlands Ireland.

Agree/ disagree ?

Thank you

Disagree. Athlone would be more suitable.

piplip87

Stan27 wrote: »

We need a midlands city.
An strong economic area to attract companies from Dublin.
The reason I choose portloaise is of its central location and more importantly, the motorways that directly goes to Dublin, cork and limerick.
Also it would be great as it isn’t beside the sea, it as a 360 access.
It would need a huge investment, especially quicker access from Tullamore/Carlow/ Kilkenny directions.
Start off with investing in the town, tidy it up a bit, invest in sports clubs etc. but ,mainly building large business parks like beside Dublin airport (ballycoolin).
In my opining we really need to do something to help rural midlands Ireland.

Agree/ disagree ?

Thank you

I'd go for Athlone. Already an IT that could be upgraded to a University,

Although at this stage Dundalk and Drogheda should be upgraded.

KaneToad

KaneToad wrote: »

Disagree. Athlone would be more suitable.

Athlone has access to Galway and Dublin. Portlaoise is already set up with easy access to three proper cities, it’s the better option by miles.

Athlone only has one motorway link to Galway - the smallest of the "large" cities.

Portlaoise has Cork and Limerick on direct motorway links and Carlow IT nearby. Also is close to the Kildare large population centres.

banie01

Portlaoise is to all intents and purposes a Dublin commuter town.

Ireland is so small that a Midlands city is not needed, what gain would it bring to the country that would not be equalled or bettered by improved motorway and rail links?

Better road and rail access to the Northwest along with improving the road and rail link from Galway > Limerick > Cork > Waterford and tying those improvements back into a motorway network that allows easy access to Dublin would be far more beneficial than granting city status to any of the big midland towns.

The travel time from Dublin to any of the regional cities is 2hrs.
Its hardly transcontinental travel and I honestly struggle to see what benefit a new Midlands city would offer.

Stan27

KaneToad wrote: »

Disagree. Athlone would be more suitable.

Why?
Athlone has direct access to 2 cities.

Portlaoise has direct access to 3.
Also closer to larger populations in the country.

Stan27

Baine 01.

The midlands are desperate for a larger economic area. Portlaoise ,makes sense.

I have worked in all the main midland towns (Carlow tullamore portlaoise mullingar) and all are desperate for more business. People from there are sick of the long communities to Dublin, and rent Down there is cheap. It’s in commute distance to Dublin, athlone isn’t, it is too far, so if businesses moved to portlaoise it’s still manageable to keep staff.

banie01

Stan27 wrote: »

Baine 01.

The midlands are desperate for a larger economic area. Portlaoise ,makes sense.

I have worked in all the main midland towns (Carlow tullamore portlaoise mullingar) and all are desperate for more business. People from there are sick of the long communities to Dublin, and rent Down there is cheap. It’s in commute distance to Dublin, athlone isn’t, it is too far, so if businesses moved to portlaoise it’s still manageable to keep staff.

The fact that they are desperate doesn't make it feasible?

Many areas would live to have inward investment and large employment projects.
Those projects are predicated upon sustainable population and infrastructure.

Why would a company move from Dublin, Limerick Galway or Cork to the Midlands?
What commercial benefit does it offer a Multi-National?
What Universities and higher education institutes are going to partner with them to provide trained graduates?

The sustainability of any large scale employment is based upon transport infrastructure, communication infrastructure, large scale educational support and integration particularly at 3rd level, a large population of appropriately trained and educated potential staff.
None of which are available in the Midland towns.

Further to that, let's say a wand was waved and those 1st 3 were granted.
What happens when as the population density of suitably qualified graduates in let's say Biochemistry is so low, that the majority of staff hired are from outside the town and hinterland?
Indeed they are likely to be non-Irish or even doing the reverse commute from Dublin, Limerick or Cork.

So now that pool of blow ins are looking for housing and can afford inflated prices whilst locals are priced out of their home market?

That businesses are desperate for business is not in doubt, but for many businesses in the Midlands that has far more to do with sustainability and strategy than it does being labelled a city.

If you could outline reasons other than emotional ones, why it's a valid strategy I'd be happy to change my view or at least review it.
But not liking commuting, and business wanting more business could be said of any place in the world.

Us Irish have an aversion to commuting that in many other countries would seem laughable.
I'm lucky enough in that whilst I've lived in Ireland my commuting has always been relatively short distances and more affected by traffic than distance. But to use it as an excuse for designing spatial and socio economic strategy is trite.

What benefit accrues with making Portlaoise a city?
Further to that, who loses out?
What is the actual cost benefit?

CrabRevolution

Stan27 wrote: »

Baine 01.

The midlands are desperate for a larger economic area. Portlaoise ,makes sense.

I have worked in all the main midland towns (Carlow tullamore portlaoise mullingar) and all are desperate for more business. People from there are sick of the long communities to Dublin, and rent Down there is cheap. It’s in commute distance to Dublin, athlone isn’t, it is too far, so if businesses moved to portlaoise it’s still manageable to keep staff.

So these people are sick of long commutes from the Midlands to Dublin, and your answer is for people to commute from Dublin to the Midlands instead?

loyatemu

Dublin's not a big city by any standards.

Better to develop and enlarge Cork and Limerick if you want to offset the dominance of Dublin.

MrAbyss

Stan27 wrote: »

An strong economic area to attract companies from Dublin.

Stopped reading there.

What will it take for people like you to understand that the kind of people who go to work in Dublin in the main IT and other industries there WANT TO LIVE IN DUBLIN. Hurling and GAA is not the centre of their entire existence as they mostly grew up in other countries. Dublin is not a boil to be lanced in the hope that some of the puss flows into places like Tullamore.

These 'new city' ideas are part of the reason why Dublin has no Metro etc. Build the Metro and go High Rise and the present boil is gone.

Stan27

banie01 wrote: »

The fact that they are desperate doesn't make it feasible?

Many areas would live to have inward investment and large employment projects.
Those projects are predicated upon sustainable population and infrastructure.

Why would a company move from Dublin, Limerick Galway or Cork to the Midlands?
What commercial benefit does it offer a Multi-National?
What Universities and higher education institutes are going to partner with them to provide trained graduates?

The sustainability of any large scale employment is based upon transport infrastructure, communication infrastructure, large scale educational support and integration particularly at 3rd level, a large population of appropriately trained and educated potential staff.
None of which are available in the Midland towns.

Further to that, let's say a wand was waved and those 1st 3 were granted.
What happens when as the population density of suitably qualified graduates in let's say Biochemistry is so low, that the majority of staff hired are from outside the town and hinterland?
Indeed they are likely to be non-Irish or even doing the reverse commute from Dublin, Limerick or Cork.

So now that pool of blow ins are looking for housing and can afford inflated prices whilst locals are priced out of their home market?

That businesses are desperate for business is not in doubt, but for many businesses in the Midlands that has far more to do with sustainability and strategy than it does being labelled a city.

If you could outline reasons other than emotional ones, why it's a valid strategy I'd be happy to change my view or at least review it.
But not liking commuting, and business wanting more business could be said of any place in the world.

Us Irish have an aversion to commuting that in many other countries would seem laughable.
I'm lucky enough in that whilst I've lived in Ireland my commuting has always been relatively short distances and more affected by traffic than distance. But to use it as an excuse for designing spatial and socio economic strategy is trite.

What benefit accrues with making Portlaoise a city?
Further to that, who loses out?
What is the actual cost benefit?

There would need to be a lot of investment.
I'm not suggesting portlaose to become the capital city. Just another large economic area that would be suitable for people who love in the commuter belt.
Benefits would be to ease the pressure off roads going to dublin.
Also keeping the Midlands young population in the area.
Less stress on housing in dublin too.

Stan27

CrabRevolution wrote: »

So these people are sick of long commutes from the Midlands to Dublin, and your answer is for people to commute from Dublin to the Midlands instead?

More for people in the Midlands who commute to dublin. If we could increase employment in day portlaoise it would be great for them. Give them options.
I don't see many people born in dublin, leaving Dublin. More for people in the midlands to travel to Dublin

Stan27

loyatemu wrote: »

Dublin's not a big city by any standards.

Better to develop and enlarge Cork and Limerick if you want to offset the dominance of Dublin.

Yes I agree with you. But just a large economic area in the midlands being developed too would be great

banie01

Stan27 wrote: »

There would need to be a lot of investment.
I'm not suggesting portlaose to become the capital city. Just another large economic area that would be suitable for people who love in the commuter belt.
Benefits would be to ease the pressure off roads going to dublin.
Also keeping the Midlands young population in the area.
Less stress on housing in dublin too.

Plopping a pointless investment in the Midlands of an Island that has @5 million people within 2.5hrs of Dublin is pointless.
You are presenting nothing to refute that.

Stan27

banie01 wrote: »

Plopping a pointless investment in the Midlands of an Island that has @5 million people within 2.5hrs of Dublin is pointless.
You are presenting nothing to refute that.

Ok, I disagree but that's fair enough.

Stan27

MrAbyss wrote: »

Stopped reading there.

What will it take for people like you to understand that the kind of people who go to work in Dublin in the main IT and other industries there WANT TO LIVE IN DUBLIN. Hurling and GAA is not the centre of their entire existence as they mostly grew up in other countries. Dublin is not a boil to be lanced in the hope that some of the puss flows into places like Tullamore.

These 'new city' ideas are part of the reason why Dublin has no Metro etc. Build the Metro and go High Rise and the present boil is gone.

No need to be rude.
Unless "People like me" you mean some one who is trying to come up with ideas to fix the country. If you disagree thats fine.

I do strongly agree with you regarding high rise. Badly needs to happen. And the metro needs to happen too.

But for people who drive long distances to dublin as it's their only option, another area close to the city where there are job opportunities would be ideal.

banie01

Stan27 wrote: »

There would need to be a lot of investment.
I'm not suggesting portlaose to become the capital city. Just another large economic area that would be suitable for people who love in the commuter belt.
Benefits would be to ease the pressure off roads going to dublin.
Also keeping the Midlands young population in the area.
Less stress on housing in dublin too.

None of the the things I mentioned necessitate Portlaoise being a capital city.
Take Limerick as an example.
100k people in the city, 2 Universities and an IT that is likely to be merged into Technical University soon.
In addition to to a large PLC college and multiple private 3rd level and further education providers.

Couple that with the already extant schools at primary and post primary to provide for those institutions.
That's just on the education front.
So what kind of budget do you provide to build those currently uneeded schools in Lapis?
Who staffs them?
More importantly who attends? Do we build those schools and institutes before we finish the infrastructure?
Are they part of the needed infrastructure? As who's going to move to Laois without decent schools?
Is it a case of- if you build it they will come?
Because that is not how resource and infrastructure planning works!
Or do we con 100k into Portlaoise and expect them to wait for infrastructure?

Your argument is based solely on emotion, without being harsh.
Its nonsense,as is your capital city point. The things needed to make a city viable are not confined solely to Capitals.

How long do you think it would take to improve Portlaoise to the point where it could be considered a viable regional city?
In that timeframe, do you think transportation options such as self drive, convoyed systems, rail hyperlinks even a notional improvement in existing rail infrastructure could improve travel and commute times nationwide?
To the point that as long as you live near a rail or motorway access point that your location in relation to Dublin or the rest of Ireland is fairly pointless.

That's before the fact that many of the educated folk turned out by the "new" 3rd level institutions will be able to telecommute in any case. nevermind that the earliest any of those folk will graduate is 4yrs after the place is actually built and staffed.
More and more of Irish GDP is being driven by services rather than by actual product and many services can be supplied remotely.


Your support for a Midlands city without presenting anything like a rational or cogent basis, is basically a commuter moaning that the M7 works are an awful imposition.
Let's fix my problem by plonking a pointless multi-generational long term development in a place that's close enough to my house that my commute will be easy.

MrAbyss

Stan27 wrote: »

No need to be rude.
Unless "People like me" you mean some one who is trying to come up with ideas to fix the country. If you disagree thats fine.

I do strongly agree with you regarding high rise. Badly needs to happen. And the metro needs to happen too.

But for people who drive long distances to dublin as it's their only option, another area close to the city where there are job opportunities would be ideal.

I was not rude. You are not coming up with ideas to fix the country. If you were a doctor and a patient had a brain tumor you would 'fix it' by telling him to build up the muscles in his left middle finger.

Address the problems where they are located. Problems solved.

murphaph

OP: there have been dozens of these kinds of threads on here. Dublin is a small city with ample space for ample housing. The solution is to build suitable housing in Dublin and improve transport in Dublin. There's no need to reinvent the wheel. Other cities have solved these seemingly insurmountable problems decades ago. Just do what they did.

riddlinrussell

murphaph wrote: »

OP: there have been dozens of these kinds of threads on here. Dublin is a small city with ample space for ample housing. The solution is to build suitable housing in Dublin and improve transport in Dublin. There's no need to reinvent the wheel. Other cities have solved these seemingly insurmountable problems decades ago. Just do what they did.

I will argue that the point here isn't specifically (or at least solely) to 'fix Dublin's problems' but also to generate wealth in the Midlands.

Portlaoise is relatively well served transportation wise so I could see no harm in taking a 'long view' to it becoming more of a 'city level' area, although definitely not at a cost to the current 'city-level' areas (Cork, Limerick, Galway, Waterford). I'd also be prioritising a northwestern hub 'city' (Most likely Sligo) before I'd prioritise this.

El Tarangu

This thread put me in mind of the giant Chinese distribution centre that was proposed at one point for Athlone. If that had have gone ahead, maybe we would already have a giant metropolis in the midlands - ah well, what might have been...

MrAbyss

El Tarangu wrote: »

This thread put me in mind of the giant Chinese distribution centre that was proposed at one point for Athlone. If that had have gone ahead, maybe we would already have a giant metropolis in the midlands - ah well, what might have been...

That was never even a real thing. If you want to have a good laugh check out the 'City of the Sacred Heart' for Mayo from about 20 years ago.

gjim

Stan27 wrote: »

An strong economic area to attract companies from Dublin.

No. If the government is to promote Portlaoise or anywhere in Ireland as a destination for companies and commerce, then the competing locations should be similarly sized towns/cities in other countries.

Spending public money to get companies to move offices from one location in Ireland to another results in no net gain in employment in the country and would be madness.

bk

gjim wrote: »

Spending public money to get companies to move offices from one location in Ireland to another results in no net gain in employment in the country and would be madness.

This big time. The biggest companies aren't looking at Dublin vs Portlaoise. They are looking at Dublin vs London/Zurich/Lisbon/etc.

Dublin is just barely big enough to attract the Googles/Facebooks/etc. of the world and if Dublin doesn't solve it's transport and housing issues we will all suffer.

Once a company like this starts up in Dublin, as they expand they can setup smaller satellite offices in other parts of the country, like Facebook in Cork, but such development is almost always off the back of major offices in Dublin and strong local management.

Of course there are different industries that smaller cities can target, like Pharmaceuticals in Cork, but as banie01 points out, that is off the back of very strong local Universities. That doesn't just spring up over night.

The major concern I'd have with developing a Midlands city is that it would most likely just turn into another commuter town of Dublin. It is just the nature of modern urbanisation and clustering.

If you want to balance Dublin, then better to focus on the likes of Cork/Limerick/etc. They already have the universities and other infrastructure in place, but they are far enough from Dublin to not end up being commuter towns of Dublin.

MrAbyss

The people who work in the main employment sectors in Dublin are not interested in talking about an inter-parish GAA match all day Monday, nor all stopping and listening attentively to the death announcements on the radio.

The cultural factor in this kind of 'plan' is huge. Most of Ireland is boring with nothing to do. Dublin for all its problems has loads to do.

Deedsie

MrAbyss wrote: »

The people who work in the main employment sectors in Dublin are not interested in talking about an inter-parish GAA match all day Monday, nor all stopping and listening attentively to the death announcements on the radio.

The cultural factor in this kind of 'plan' is huge. Most of Ireland is boring with nothing to do. Dublin for all its problems has loads to do.

Why do you kerp bringing the GAA into it? Its hardly relevant to this thread. Laois is hardly Gaelic games stronghold. Worthless contributions

El Tarangu

MrAbyss wrote: »

The people who work in the main employment sectors in Dublin are not interested in talking about an inter-parish GAA match all day Monday, nor all stopping and listening attentively to the death announcements on the radio.

The cultural factor in this kind of 'plan' is huge. Most of Ireland is boring with nothing to do. Dublin for all its problems has loads to do.

Silly contribution

(i) A high proportion of people living in Dublin are actually from the countryside
(ii) plenty of native-born dubliners enjoy GAA
(ii) Not everyone in the countryside discusses only GAA

Sam Russell

Mod: Can we drop the GAA - it is hardly anything to do with infrastructure, is it?

Carawaystick

There was a proposal a while back to try build up Athlone, Mullingar and Tullamore into a more tightly connected hub,
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/hubs-and-gateways-made-simple-1.1128187

bennyineire

Carawaystick wrote: »

There was a proposal a while back to try build up Athlone, Mullingar and Tullamore into a more tightly connected hub,
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/hubs-and-gateways-made-simple-1.1128187

Ah yes the dream of Athmullinmore

dave 27

I agree on the point that Ireland is too small to have a "midlands city" which is to rival other larger cities in the country.

As a previous poster stated, you need to grow the population massively to fill the services (like the universities and IT's it will have and somehow build).

A more realistic solution is to build up the likes of Cork and Limerick, both strategically South and West, both have international airports, both have large ports both in city and outside, and crucially both have the population to fill large jobs from big services.

Portlaoise simply doesnt have that availability. I would however look at places like Sligo on the north West and somewhere like Dundalk which have slightly bigger populations, there needs to be more investment above the line drawn between Dublin and Galway

MrAbyss

dave 27 wrote: »

I would however look at places like Sligo on the north West and somewhere like Dundalk which have slightly bigger populations, there needs to be more investment above the line drawn between Dublin and Galway

Sligo is absolutely tiny. I think it actually lost population in recent years to one off housing in the surrounding hinterland.

Dublin is still not big enough. Serious.

CrabRevolution

When people say "We need to build up X" what exactly do they mean? Who needs to build it?

I presume the answer is "the government" but they're not in the process of building up places as it is. It's not as though the government is doing large planned settlements and cities like the Soviet Union.

Sam Russell

CrabRevolution wrote: »

When people say "We need to build up X" what exactly do they mean? Who needs to build it?

I presume the answer is "the government" but they're not in the process of building up places as it is. It's not as though the government is doing large planned settlements and cities like the Soviet Union.

You mean like Adamstown?